Fireplace Insert Question

[Peacock]

Please forgive my ignorance -- I have a lot to learn!

We recently bought a house with a fireplace; the fireplace was a BIG "gotta have" item for me. Of course they're nice to look at, but I'm being practical here - we want an additional heat source. Our furnace runs on heating oil, and it's a pain (and expensive) getting it filled. We've got tons of free seasoned firewood stacked up, at least 4 trees that need to come down, and due to being in a somewhat rural area free firewood indefinitely is not hard to obtain if we're willing to wait a year to season it.

But, of course, the fireplace as it is puts out, basically, NO heat.

So DH and I decided to get an insert. We shopped around, though I admit not as much as we'd planned to shop (that's a common problem with us). We settled on an Appalachian stove - I'll look up the model if you want to know - from a big "superstore" type reseller, well known. We bought a hot tub from these folks a few years ago (sold with our old house); they also do pools, patio furniture, swingsets, etc. Final price including installation is about $1700.

To begin the process, we were told to get a chimney inspection and cleaning. We knew we needed it cleaned pretty badly. Paid $125 for the guy to come out and do the job. Now, this guy was also a stove reseller, specializing in Buck stoves. So naturally he would try to convince me we got a bad deal, right?

He said the "second liner from the top" was cracked and it would cost $400 to replace it so we could just continue to use the fireplace as is. But if we were to buy a stove through him, comparably priced, we wouldn't need that liner fixed because according to him proper insert installation includes a special liner of its own. His cost for stove installation: $1200. Just the installation. The stove itself is a tad over $1500.

YIKES!

So...back to the store who has our $50 deposit. They say this special liner isn't necessary because their stove is super-efficient, with its catalytic combustor (the Buck stove the other guy pushed is non-catalytic); as long as you only burn what you're supposed to burn, that is seasoned firewood or non-glossy newsprint, no creosote will accumulate and it'll never need cleaning, will burn 12 hours with one load of wood, yadda yadda.

Yet, I'm assuming that even were that the case, we ought to get that cracked liner in the chimney repaired...right?

I'm confused and really don't want to get ripped off.

Thanks!

[topside1]

I think you need a third opinion and then weigh the differences!!! I am a freestanding wood burning stove man myself and wouldn't have it any other way...Tennessee John

[MELOC]

i have not been a woodstove consumer for many years, but the stove prices seem awfully high.

[Ramblin Wreck]

Yeah, I'd get another opinion too. It sounds like you may have a masonry fireplace, so a cracked liner (provided you have a lot of masonry/brick/rock/mortar around it) might not be that big of a deal. If you have a pre-fab type fireplace (which I doubt since you can't really put an insert in those usually), a cracked liner would be a much bigger risk. If in doubt, err on the side of safety. Best wishes.

[KindredSpirit]

We had a free standing wood stove. DH would get on the roof and clean our chimney. Is your roof low enough to look down in there with a flashlight and see if you see the crack in question. I am asking this because maybe the guy said that just to get you to buy your stove from him. When he quoted you $1,200 for the liner that could be correct. We used regular stove pipe and it came to $900, that was a number of years ago. You may run this by someone else on here, but why couldn't you run stove pipe up to the top and have the same effect? It might be cheaper. We had ours professionally installed because of insurance and that is why it came to $900.00. I would think you could run your own pipe for $500.00 or less depending on the height of your chimney. I haven't heard of any stove that is energy efficient enough to not leave creosote. There is a dry chemical you can put in the stove to keep the creosote down, but it still accumulates. Our stove was airtight catalytic and new and still produced creosote. We burned only wood, no newspaper. We used homemade wax starters (I put pine shavings in egg cartons and poured candle wax from left over candles over it).

[KindredSpirit]

Here is a good crash course in catalytic vs noncatalytic:

http://www.customfireplaceandmore.co...-catalytic.htm

You may want to check with some of the homesteaders on what stoves they had. I had a Jotul (which I really liked, but the knob did come off occasionally), my sister has a vintage vermont castings which is also a good stove.

[cfabe]

Best practice when installing an insert in a masonry fireplace is to install an insulated stainless steel liner the whole length of the chimney, regardless of the condition of the existing chimney. An open masonry fireplace is designed with a large flue because it consumes a large quantity of dilution air along with the air used for combustion, this is what keeps the draft working. This is also what makes the fireplace inefficent, all your heat goes up the chimney with a bunch of nice warm inside air.

In an airtight wood stove regardless of catalyst or not (the insert IS a wood stove in function, just shaped different) the system is designed to consume only as much air as is necessary to burn the fire, and the manufacturer specs an appropriate flue size for this lower volume of air, 6 or 8" usually. Your masonry flue is probably 8x10 or larger, venting your new stove into this will slow down the smoke and cause low draft, and possibly accelerate creosote build up because the smoke temperatures will be cooler. An insulated liner will keep the smoke nice and hot until it's outside, and will ensure a strong draft because it is sized properly for the chimney.

The cheaper install is probably just installing a flue plate and venting the insert into your chimney. This can work okay but it is not ideal. Since the chimney won't be well sealed you'll still lose some inside air up the chiminey (which pulls in cold outside air through air leaks in the walls) and your draft will not be as strong as it could. You may have problems with smoke coming out when adding wood, might be hard to keep it burning until it is good and hot, etc.

I'd get a third opinion, and get details of how the cheaper install is going to be done. Err on the side of spending more money to get the best setup, unless the cost is completely out of line. Also, make sure you notifiy your insurance company, and get a permit from the local government if required for this kind of work. Last thing you want is an uninsured chimney fire.

[stars01]

We have been heating our house for the past 10 years with wood, the last 4 years only wood and no oil. Our first year we didn't know much about woodstoves and such and ended up with a good size fire in the chimney. We then called a chimney guy. We had cracks all throughout the masonry liner. We had 15 feet of pipe wrapped with cerawool blanket for insulation installed for $1265, that was back in '97. We then spent 9 years with a Vermont Casting catalytic freestanding woodstove. I didn't realize how much I didn't like that stove until we bought a Lopi insert this April. It's a smaller stove with a bigger heat output and I can still cook all our meals on it. We've only used it 2 months so far so I guess we'll see how it goes this winter. Also, it's not a catalytic-we won't do that again.

I agree with a third opinion. Please be careful, when I was 13 our house almost burnt to the ground due to a chimney fire. Scary.

Your firewood pile sounds great! A cord of seasoned cut, split, & delivered here is $225 to $250 (no, we don't pay that!!) Best wishes Paula

[Peacock]

Thanks for the info and advice! I just got off the phone with our insurance agent and she said "no problem" - nothing special required there, as long as it's installed up to code. We're still collecting local info.

[neolady]

Originally Posted by cfabe

Best practice when installing an insert in a masonry fireplace is to install an insulated stainless steel liner the whole length of the chimney, regardless of the condition of the existing chimney..

Very good post and good advice.

It is also the by-law/code in any area that I am aware of, and the National Building Code, as well as any wood burning appliance standard in Canada that you MUST install a full stainless steel liner with any fireplace insert. The owner's manual will also tell you the same thing - you must install a full length stainless flue liner that is securely fastened to the top of your chimney. The legislation is very close in the U.S. so I bet that the same legislation applies there.

By installing that stainless steel liner, I doubt you would have to make any repairs to cracked flue tiles either as the stainless liner becomes your liner.

To repair cracked tiles, replacement tiles can be installed (usually expensive unless right at the top of the chimney), but another option is a "pour-in" liner (think giant c*o*ndom for lack of a better term). But regardless of whether repaired or not, you will still have to use a full length, stainless steel liner for any fireplace insert (and hearth mount installations as well).

Your insurance company is right so make sure that it is installed to CODE - which means a liner. CODE means bylaws, building code and the manufacturer's installation instructions (and they will ask for that manual when and if they do an inspection).