About to buy a well pump...

[SouthWesteader]

My family is about to buy a Flotec FP4332 Convertible Jet pump. A neighbor is allowing us to use his well, as long as he gets to use water from it anytime. Its an underground river, 100 ft down, 75 ft deep, and in his horse pen. We have a couple hundred trees, most of them not drought-hardy, so it makes for one incredible water bill. We would run electric lines from a shed in the middle of our yard, and run pipes all the way (540 ft) to the house, where the outdoor water connection are. Have any of you had experience with that pump model? Would it be OK to run it constantly, or would it overheat (we have many of are trees on constant slow-drip irrigation)? Anything special about this model (quirks, etc)?

[danb98577]

Hope this works out for you with the neighbor-relationships can become strained over water. I am not familiar with that model pump, but I am curious as to how far of a run will the electric be? You want to be careful of voltage drop over long runs-If the length of the run dictates, oh, say a 12 gauge wire I would sure think of going the next size heavier just to be on the safe side. Pick up a copy of Wiring Simplified or some similar book at the library-there is a formula for this. You may also want to consider an inline check valve somewhere in that 540' run of water line. Dan

[agmantoo]

If the diameter of the casing will accept a submersible pump you would be way ahead to get a submersible. A submersible will give you all the water it pumps, requires only one pipe down the well and is overall far less problematic.

[Obser]

Be careful. Continue doing your homework. Calculate line loss on the electric. Check pump specifications concerning continuous duty. Think about neighbor relations (a shared well can work for all concerned or it can become the cause of hostility).

[SouthWesteader]

THe neigbor is the best of neighbors, IMO. We both have municipal water for household use, and it was an unprompted voluntary offer from him, so I don't think we'll have any problems. It is also an underground river (which he says can't dry up), so I also can't use a submersible pump, but it will never run out. I got the user's manual off Flotec's website, and it says use 12-gauge wire for 300-400 ft, which is the length I would be running it, so that should be okay, too. Thanks y'all for the advice, though.

[donsgal]

Originally Posted by SouthWesteader

My family is about to buy a Flotec FP4332 Convertible Jet pump. A neighbor is allowing us to use his well, as long as he gets to use water from it anytime. Its an underground river, 100 ft down, 75 ft deep, and in his horse pen. We have a couple hundred trees, most of them not drought-hardy, so it makes for one incredible water bill. We would run electric lines from a shed in the middle of our yard, and run pipes all the way (540 ft) to the house, where the outdoor water connection are. Have any of you had experience with that pump model? Would it be OK to run it constantly, or would it overheat (we have many of are trees on constant slow-drip irrigation)? Anything special about this model (quirks, etc)?

If the water table is that high, why don't you simply drill your own well? I wouldn't rely on someone else's good will when my trees were at stake. Around here wells are 400 - 600 feet deep and it costs a fortune to drill one. I wish I coiuld go down 100 feet and hit water!

I'd rethink this if I were you.

donsgal

[SouthWesteader]

The problem with drilling a well, is that it would double the cost. $200 for a hydra-drill, and $427 for a permit, and we don't have that kind of green . But he's a good neighbor, he knows us really well, and it's a good deal for both of us.

[rambler]

Sounds like you have the neighbor thing covered, your electric bill, your install, etc. Things can go bad, but sounds ok.

Top side pumps aren't as good as submersables, but sounds like sub doesn't work for you?

Again, you are reading it from the manufaturer, but I'd sure, sure wonder about the wire requirements! According to the charts

http://www.elec-toolbox.com/calculators/voltdrop.htm

You can only draw 2 amps at that distance on 12ga without having voltage drop that is bad for motors. Wow, would think the pump motor able to draw 100 feet, plus push the water 500 feet, would be pulling more than that. 12ga just does not sound near big enough.

--->Paul

[donsgal]

Originally Posted by SouthWesteader

The problem with drilling a well, is that it would double the cost. $200 for a hydra-drill, and $427 for a permit, and we don't have that kind of green . But he's a good neighbor, he knows us really well, and it's a good deal for both of us.

Any chance he would be willing to put something in writing? Just to be on the very, very, very safe side?

donsgal

[SouthWesteader]

The #12 wire at lowes is rated for 20 amps at 600 volts, way more than this pump requires. It requires 15 amps at 115 volts, so that shouldn't be a problem either... As for the writing, that may be do-able... Just don't want him to feel that we're suspicious of him...

[rambler]

Originally Posted by SouthWesteader

The #12 wire at lowes is rated for 20 amps at 600 volts, way more than this pump requires. It requires 15 amps at 115 volts, so that shouldn't be a problem either... As for the writing, that may be do-able... Just don't want him to feel that we're supicious of him...

Voltage drop.

Check out the link I enclosed.

You will find out one way or the other.

20 amps for the first 60 feet (good for wiring a building, etc.); after that it drops off _considerably_.

Very hard on electric motors especially.

By 400 feet, you'll be redoing it with #3 wire to keep from burning out pumps.

Pipe is kinda the same way, tho not quite as bad. Be sure you size your pump & pipe for the distance you are going, or you will just have a trickle of water.

--->Paul

[cfabe]

If you use a 240v pump you will draw half the current for the same power, which will let you get away with smaller wire. With an 8 amp 220v load, you'd only need 8AWG which while still pricey is way cheaper than 3 or 4AWG.

Oh and don't forget that this is the length from your electric panel to the load, forget about tapping into the shed's power. You will need to run heavy gauge wire all the way from your panel.

[agmantoo]

No intending to be negative but with the lack of awareness regarding pumps, wiring and wells in total I seriously doubt that the jet pump will ever get primed. That is why a couple of us are subtlely suggesting a submersible which he states has issues but fails to supply why.

[Jim-mi]

If your short on $$$ consider this. How are you going to feel when you have to buy another *pump* because the first one burned out from low voltage (line loss) and constant running....?
Be shure to place it away from anything combustable so that when the pump bursts in to flames it won't burn down the barn/building.
Replacing his barn just might cost more than your trees.

Now please go reread rambler's post on voltage drop.

[SouthWesteader]

#6 or #8 it is then, I guess. The Owner's manual says for 300-400 feet, use either #8 or #12, and I just measured the distance, and it's 225 feet. But I do want to be on the safe side. BTW, as I said earlier, I can't use sub-pumps because it's a fast-flowing underground river, and it would just rattle off the pipe. I did consider it though, earlier. I could use 230 volts though, 'cause the pump has that option. Take a look at the Owner's Manual, etc. here.

http://www.flotecwater.com/asp/Product.asp?PId=266

[tiogacounty]

Southwesteader, First I am an electrician, secondly I have read the electrical section of the link provided. In general you cannot guess wire sizes for two reasons. First, as many here have stated, voltage loss will result if the wire is too small for the wire length and the pump may burn up prematurely. Secondly, you cannot just throw a bigger wire at it unless you have a lot of money to waste. Currently copper wire is horribly expensive, double what it was a year ago. IMHO, you should follow the manufacturer's instructions, leave the internal terminations at 230 volts, and use # 12 wire as indicated in the chart. I would also bury the wire and make sure it is run in pvc conduit. Unless you have nothing but pure clean sand, directly burying UF wire, (which is a romex type wire that's designed to be buried) frequently leads to problems. Best of luck on your water pump adventure.

[SouthWesteader]

Thanks for the advice. I will be using electrical conduiting that whole way (that was counted in on the expense, originally).

[rambler]

Originally Posted by SouthWesteader

#6 or #8 it is then, I guess. The Owner's manual says for 300-400 feet, use either #8 or #12, and I just measured the distance, and it's 225 feet. But I do want to be on the safe side. BTW, as I said earlier, I can't use sub-pumps because it's a fast-flowing underground river, and it would just rattle off the pipe. I did consider it though, earlier. I could use 230 volts though, 'cause the pump has that option. Take a look at the Owner's Manual, etc. here.

http://www.flotecwater.com/asp/Product.asp?PId=266

The 8/12 is directly related to the 115/230. 115v (2 wire [hot & neutral] plus ground) requires 8ga, while 230v (3 wire [hot, hot, & neutral] plus ground) requires 12ga. It sounded like you were planning on going with a 115v setup, which would need 8ga wire. If I misunderstood sorry. I would consider that rather minimual recommendations - if you run an outlet or a signal light bulb or something else out there, seems pretty minimal wire gauge. If you can, 230v is always better for a 1hp motor that will see a lot of use & starts under load. Your call, but if it were me I'd want 230v setup.

(And yes, if the 230v pump is the only thing out there with no 115v loads, he can run the pump at 230v with just 2 wires [both hot] plus ground, The neutral wire would not be used at all unless he has a 115v light, receptical, etc. out there; but I don't want to confuse him any farther.... Long distance electrical wiring is a dangerous thing, I don't want to be responsible for 'issues'.)

Your flowing river underground is not a common thing here, so I've tried not to 'advise' you on things I don't know much about. That is a very different thing. We have layers that water oozes out of here, but not voids with water flowing in them like a river.

I hope I'm not being short with you; I wish to help, but it's hard to be to the point, be accurate, and sound fun & cool all at the same time. Hope you are getting the help & advise you need with this project, and good luck.

If it were me & there was never any need at all for 115v I would run 10 or 12 ga 2-wire with ground out to there, run it at 230v.

If you want something _ever_ on 115v out there, run 8ga 3-wire plus ground out to there. Still run the pump on 230v, but have 115v available.

According to the manual you can run 8ga 2-wire plus ground out to there & run the pump at 115v, but that is the less desirable option imho.

Follow good wiring & grounding, to code from a 'Wiring Simplified' or other good NEC book. It's easy to make it work but still be dangerous if you don't follow code. Water & electricity...........

I would come from a main panel, not off of a branch at the end of a building.... I'm not sure I followed where you are coming from with the wire, just mentioning this. You never know how poorly that branch is wired, could only be 14ga; or it is already ruinning a lot of other things & you will overload it.

I know the manual says 12ga is ok at 230v, just seems light to me. It would _not_ work at 115v, you need 8ga for that - and that seems light to me as well.

--->Paul

[tiogacounty]

Originally Posted by rambler

I know the manual says 12ga is ok at 230v, just seems light to me. It would _not_ work at 115v, you need 8ga for that - and that seems light to me as well.

--->Paul

Paul the wire size seems light because there is one piece if info missing, which is the amp draw of the pump. I looked for amp. draw and FLA. in the linked info. but couldn't find anything. I can only guestimate that the run amps. on the larger pump would be less than 4 so the wire size is more than adequate. If it was a fully loaded breaker, IE 16 amps on a 20 amp breaker, than the wire size would be a lot more suspect. BTW, your plan to run a light or convience outlet at the well head wouldn't pass code. You would have a 230 volt branch circuit with a 110 volt circuit taped off of it. The only way this would be legal is if the was a small distribution panel installed at the well with a main breaker (disconnecting means) and a breaker for the well and for the 110 volt circuit. This would require a 4 wire feed, two hots, a neutral and ground. Not to say that your idea wouldn't work or that it hasn't been done on thousands of farms across the country, just that it wouldn't pass code.

[rambler]

Thanks tioga. I am used to 1hp farm motors drawing a lot of amps. You are correct that we don't know this one, & it likely is around the 4 amps as you say. In my foggy memory, I think I heard 7 amps for my deep well pump, which is perhaps 1.5 hp.

Again in a short message, I was leaving out the panel at the far end should one want a 115v setup out there as well as 230v.

As to the 4 wire deal, I thought that was code 'everywhere' as well, but I had my farm yard rewired last summer - by well established, kinda spendy pro electrician outfit, they do gas stations, actually were working on the city power substation, etc. Pulled all the permits, had all the county inspections. I have the house & 9 outbuildings. They ran 3 wires (if you can call something that big a wire!) to all buildings from the transformer, ground rod at each building. There was never any discussion or issue at all on the 3 wires, instead of 4. Only issue at all was breakerbox on the outside of the barn, not inside.

So, I donno on that. But, your point is certainly well taken. Six months ago I woulda said the same thing. Now - I donno.

--->Paul