Electric Fencing Question

[outofmire]

I posted this in the goat forum, but then I realized that I might get some good responses over here in this forum. Hope ya'll don't mind my double posting like this.

I want to put up some 4 strand, aluminum electric fencing. I'm doing this alone, and as our soil is shallow and rocky, I'm going to just do double T-stakes at the corners. How far apart should my other stakes be? Keep in mind this in non-tensile, but I do want to keep the wires from sagging and touching one another, and to look neat since this will be our permanent fence. Also, should I do any other bracing at the corners or at the gates? If so what can I use to brace t-stakes.

Thanks

[marvella]

if this is permanent fence, invest in good, wooden corner and gate posts. if you don't you'll end up having to go back later and add them. it makes all the difference when you stretch the wire, you'll have something to stretch against. t-posts won't stand up to it.

[outofmire]

Well, that would be ideal, but I can't manage it under the circumstances. I have no way to dig holes 4' deep when the deepest I can dig is 2', and half of that is into shale.

[uncle Will in In.]

I used steel T posts for corners on electric barbwire fences some of which were a quarter mile long. I put one post in the corner and put one in the fence line about four feet out from the corner post. I put a brace wire from the bottom of the corner post out to the line posts at about the top of where the fence wire would go. I hooked the end of the fence to an insulater on the post that's 4feet out from the corners. I ran an electric wire diagonaly across the corner between the two posts. For cattle I used high tensil barb with the line posts 50 feet apart ezcept where an uneven place required more posts. I streched it by hand from one post to the next. I had over 5 miles made this way and it was still in good shape after 9 years when I sold the cattle. To do it like you suggested, I would put the line posts about 15 or 20 feet apart.

[Beeman]

Originally Posted by outofmire

I posted this in the goat forum, but then I realized that I might get some good responses over here in this forum. Hope ya'll don't mind my double posting like this.

I want to put up some 4 strand, aluminum electric fencing. I'm doing this alone, and as our soil is shallow and rocky, I'm going to just do double T-stakes at the corners. How far apart should my other stakes be? Keep in mind this in non-tensile, but I do want to keep the wires from sagging and touching one another, and to look neat since this will be our permanent fence. Also, should I do any other bracing at the corners or at the gates? If so what can I use to brace t-stakes.

Thanks

http://www.wedgeloc.com/ Here's the link for what you need.

First I would say aluminum wire won't last as a running goat will probably go right through. If you use heavy T-posts on the corners and buy wedge locks you can make braces with the T-posts. Wedge locks are available at Tractor Supply and most other farm stores. They allow you to connect T-posts together for bracing corners. You can also use them for gates and even shelters.
In your ground you are going to have problems with your electric fence obtaining ground. You will have to drive ground rods deep and will most likely need 3 rods. With poor grounding the goats will walk right thru your fence.

[bill not in oh]

Second best solution for corners:

http://www.wedgeloc.com/installation.html

Not sure what you'll do for gates - probably curse a lot over the years LOL.

You might try using plastic step-in posts as line posts. You can easily adjust wire height by changing the holder and tension by simply moving the posts perpendicular to the wire. Place them about every 15-20 feet on a non-tensioned fence.

edit:
Beeman wins!

[outofmire]

Well, how far does the ground rod need to go? My electrician hammered one in the ground when he installed the electricity for our house, so I'm assuming it can be done. Also, it's easier to break through the shale with a small diameter iron rod than it is to dig it, if that makes any sense.

About the aluminum wire....I'm going off what another goat owner uses for her goats. I wanted something lightweight enough for me to handle, something that doesn't rust, etc. I know I will probably have to train the goats to a smaller area, but I have nigerians anyway. I don't think they'll do much harm to the fence. When we get a horse, that may be a different situation altogether, I guess. I was planning to run a more visible tape type row along the top of the fence for the horse.

I got this idea from some of you off this forum a few months back when I was looking for something easier for me to do alone once I realized my husband wouldn't be able to help me with this. Most of you said to either do stock panels or electric wire stretched by hand. I like the stock panel idea, and I may go back and add them in later, a little at a time, but I can't right now.

[outofmire]

Thanks Bill and Beeman for the bracing hardware info. That's what I was looking for.

Thanks also to Uncle Will for giving me the info on how you did it. 15-20 feet was about what I was thinking. Actually, I was thinking of going every 16' so that the posts would already be in place if I wanted to go with stock panels later. Maybe I'll give the step in posts a try.

[Beeman]

Look at the manual for your fence charger, it will give you info about grounding rods, I'll look at mine when I get a chance.

Let me know how the goat training goes.

[outofmire]

About the ground rods, I did a quick search and it seems like they have to be driven 6' or so. Does that sound right? This may be a problem after all. I was thinking 3-4'. Any suggestions?

[Beeman]

My charger is a Parmak by Parker- McCroryory here's what it says:

Low impedence fencer must be properly grounded. Three eight foot ground rods 10 feet apart driven 8ft deep into permanently moist earth are recommended. Sandy rock or clay soil conditions cause a poor ground. in these areas additional ground rods may be needed to adequately ground the fenc. In some areas 5-6 ground rods may be needed. If you do not properly ground your fence your charger will be damaged and you will have decresed or no shock at all on fence line.

This is right from the instruction sheet. If you walk in to our local electrical supply and ask for 3 or more ground rods he knows you are installing an electric fence.

[outofmire]

Okay, after I posted I did another little search and found that you can dig a trench 20' long and bury the rod in that as deep as possible, which for us would be about 1-1.5'. I wonder if I could just cut the rods off shorter, say 3' or so, and drive them in at a steep angle....and then just do triple the number of rods. Would that work?

[ET1 SS]

May I suggest an idea?

Do you have a well?

the steel casing of your well, is surely touching water. Clamp a grounding wire onto the well casing and be done with it. You are not likely to be driving anything deeper than your well, ever.

[Oxankle]

If you are going to use T posts as corners Uncle Will's way is cheaper than anything else and costs you only a tiny piece of lost ground. Drive those
corner posts in as far as possible, burying the anchor plate 4 inches deep if you can.

As for line posts, I use a post every 40 feet in my electric fences and they hold cattle just fine. They have to be closer on rough ground of course so that the wire follows the ground contour. The cheapest way to go for posts is to buy 3/8 rebar in 20 foot sections and cut 4 pieces 5 feet long from each. They last forever and if one is bent you simply pull it, replace it and hammer it out straight again. Insulators for such posts come in packages of 25 and are cheap.

I do not like aluminum wire; it has no tensile strength and stretches/breaks way too easily. I use l4 guage galvanized steel. Over a long period of time it will rust, but it is still effective. Be sure to bolt your joints tightly and use an anti-oxidant of the type electricians use if you intend to leave the fence for a long period of time.

For connections that are opened and closed from time to time I just wrap one wire around the other several times. I use a short piece of garden hose on the end of the wire that is loose, the one to wrap around the other. I use these where I want to connect and disconnect fences--for example to isolate and locate shorts in the fence. When the connection is re-established I make a wrap or two and slide the wire up and down over the wire being wrapped; this knocks off any oxidation so that the re-wrapped connection is sound.

As for grounds, most chargers require a ground within about 20 feet of the charger. In sandy ground you need more rods. If you are able to mount your charger someplace where the ground is always damp you will have a much better ground. I have four 8-foot rods driven into the ground for my charger, the farthest one about 50 feet away in a creek bank.
Ox

[outofmire]

If you are going to use T posts as corners Uncle Will's way is cheaper than anything else and costs you only a tiny piece of lost ground.

Maybe I need some further explanation here. How is there lost ground.

Uncle Will, are you saying that you brace the corners with wire from the bottom of the corner post to the post that is 4' out, diagonally, and then the other post the same way. Then you run the fence across the corner from one of the posts that is 4' out to the other one?

[outofmire]

Originally Posted by ET1 SS

May I suggest an idea?

Do you have a well?

the steel casing of your well, is surely touching water. Clamp a grounding wire onto the well casing and be done with it. You are not likely to be driving anything deeper than your well, ever.

I thought it wasn't advised to plant your ground rods near water lines, etc.

[outofmire]

Ox, you have a lot of good information. I like your idea about using rebar. Do you think I'll have trouble hefting around the spool of heavier gauge wire? I am beginning to think the aluminum would give us problems when we get a horse, but I wasn't worried about it for the goats because our goats only weigh about 50#. Also, the charger is hooked directly into the power, correct? That means I'm limited by how far I can get my ground rods away from the power source, which for us is the house.

I just wanted to make sure because we do have some wetter areas down the hill from the house, but I don't imagine we could put the ground rods there since it'd be more than 20' from the house??

[ET1 SS]

Originally Posted by outofmire

I thought it wasn't advised to plant your ground rods near water lines, etc.

Driving a steel rod through a PVC pipe would be a bad idea. Dont do it.

But my well casing is steel. I dont need a 3/8 inch steel rod driven in the ground when I already have a 8 inch steel pipe going down 165 feet. And if there is any doubt about whether a grounding rod is maintained wet enough, I am sure that my well is 'wet'.

[outofmire]

No, I thought the concern was with electrifying the water supply.

[Alice In TX/MO]

That heavier gauge steel wire has caused my horses LOTS of misery. The former pasture renter used it, and didn't maintain it. Over time, the cows walked through it and tangled it. Now, remnants get tangled in the bush hog, around critter legs, etc etc.

We have been walking the pasture picking up wire for years, but last week my old mare came up to the barn with a nasty piece of wire wrapped around and almost imbedded in her hind leg. Had to get wire cutters to get it off, and she was very patient with me. I'm so glad I taught her to stand hobbled years ago. This is not the first time one of my horses has gotten tangled up, and one of them had to have surgery due to the damage caused.

I prefer to use the poly wire. It's woven plastic with very thin strands of aluminum woven in. We have had good success with it for both horses and cattle. Don't know about goats. We have never had an animal tangled in this wire.

I'll be spending extra time this week in the pasture, walking, looking for wire.