help with determining power need

[ebarj1098]

How do you determine how much power your household needs? We are starting to think about solar or wind and want to figure out our energy usage and go from there. Heard solar was cheaper to start since you can add panels. Anyone on here use both, and what do you prefer? We're looking at a place where we'd have to run power about 1/4 mile. Cost should be around $8000 to put electric in. Considering just spending that money right away on an alternative and skip the electric coop. Thanks for any input!!

[Evan Fryman]

I have atleast 20 more link's just for Solar alone and Many more Others !
the top three should give you Most of the ansers that you need !!!!

http://aaasolar.com/
http://www.montanagreenpower.com/index.html
http://www.seia.org/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12VDC_Power/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3rdworldenergy/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/offgri...dhomesteading/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/renewableenergy2/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SolarHeat/?yguid=84021711

http://www.energy.gov/
http://www.solarelectric.com/welcome.htm
http://www.vermontsolar.com/solarenergy.html
http://ww2.green-trust.org:8383/2000/solar/findsun.htm
http://www.knowledgehound.com/topics/altenerg.htm
http://www.solar-electric.com/lighting.html
http://www.powerfromsun.com/
http://www.pvenergy.com/
http://www.rebelwolf.com/
http://www.backwoodssolar.com/interests/RemoteHome.htm

[Janon]

Pay the $8000 and have electric put in. It will increase the value of your property, its far more convenient and offers far more power than even a very expensive alternative energy setup.

Creating your own energy is far more difficult and costly than most folks realize.

cheers,

[texican]

Having lived off of solar power for 12 years exclusively (no dedicated genny)...I'd ask you this question...Do you and your wife like to camp? Because very few of your kitchen appliances will work, unless you get a very serious battery bank, which will need continuous maintenance. Get used to minimal electrical usage, and be ready and willing to simply do without during cloudy weather. I 'fondly' remember a two month cloudy period...and I could only listen a few hours a night to the radio...normally I could have lit up the house, had the tv/dvd player on, the whole shebang...

Don't get me wrong... the selfsufficiency is great... just need to think about whether you want to maintain your own power company...as there ain't nobody you can call to come fix it...unless you're willing to pay royally...

good luck, and keep us informed... and if you have any specifics, myself and several others here have up and running systems...

phil

[ebarj1098]

Thanks for all the links. Believe me, I know there are downsides. We haven't made any decisions yet, which is why I'm working on what we use for Kwh and what kind of system we'd need for that. If we go this route, we'll definately be using both solar and wind if we don't have the electric put in. We should be able to do a pretty good system, depending on how much we spend on land, since we are selling two houses to buy and build. Probably won't occur till next spring, but I want to get all my information now. Any more advice is welcome, I'd be very interested in hearing from those with systems like this!

[MrPG]

What you can look into, is a small 5kw diesel generator.

Check utterpower.com for info on the "lister" type engines that run forever, are simple to maintain, and can be run on straight veggie oil if you choose.

They are about $1,000 to $1,500 on eBay and are very economical on fuel.

With this, you could have inexpensive electricity, buy a battery bank so the generator doesn't have to run all the time, have a PTO belt for other uses, and then be able to grow into your solar or wind setup. And it is less out-of-pocket expenses.

[Fire-Man]

Originally Posted by ebarj1098

How do you determine how much power your household needs? We are starting to think about solar or wind and want to figure out our energy usage and go from there. Heard solar was cheaper to start since you can add panels. Anyone on here use both, and what do you prefer? We're looking at a place where we'd have to run power about 1/4 mile. Cost should be around $8000 to put electric in. Considering just spending that money right away on an alternative and skip the electric coop. Thanks for any input!!

As already stated Pay the $8000 unless you want to be pretty much Camping out from now on. $8k want buy you a large enough Solar set-up to do alot with. Sure it will run a few lights, run your small water pump and you can use the tv some, but your hot water, stove, washer, dryer, hair dryer, Heat, Cooling, fridgerator, toaster and alot of other items want be able to run off the solar set-up or at least not long. You would have to use gas, like LP, propane etc for your big appliances. I do live off a solar set-up, but it is by choise---I want to be self-sufficiant, but I have to watch real close my power usage, I have to keep my batteries checked and replace one once in a while. If it gets cloudy for a few days----I have to skimp. I do use Propane gas, but I am trying to cut out alot of that by heating water with wood and using wood heat, and doing alot of my cooking outdoors with wood-I have Alot of wood. I have a gas generator that I can crank up if needed like to run the washer-----If I have alot of sunny days--I can run the washer on solar. Hope this helps-Oh my small solar set-up would cost app. $15,000 new. Randy

[rambler]

Originally Posted by ebarj1098

How do you determine how much power your household needs? We are starting to think about solar or wind and want to figure out our energy usage and go from there.

I think you are looking at this backwards.You need to look at what a stand-alone $10,000 solar package will provide you for amps. Realistically, allowing for clouds, short days, battery maitenence, etc. And then see if you & your family is willing to live off that supply of power, and willing to make the lifestyle changes required.

Nothing wrong with solar power, nothing wrong with living off-grid. But is a very differen thing, you don't just add up your current watts of usage & plunk down a soalr setup to match.... You need to have everyone in the family willing to scrimp & save watts every day, and it works well. If some don't want to make that lifestyle change, it will be a nightmare for you.

Look at your current electric bills for the past year, & see what you use for watts right now. Then figure what can be run on propane or done without in your house. And what do you absolutely need to run on electricity.

--->Paul

[Thrifty Sarrah]

When we built here we had the choice of hooking up to the grid for $5,000 or putting in our own system. We put in our own system and have been living happily with it for 3 years.
We had to learn just as you are and one thing we found was many folks wanted to sell you a really good expensive system. Much like having the hottest car or the most up to the minute computer equipment. We listened to everyone then we built our own set up. The local solar expert looked down his nose at us for not spending $30,000. So be it.
We put in our system for $10,000. That price included the 10 x 12 building to house the system and to mount the panels on the roof.
We don't go short on any of our power needs but we adjusted in the beginning and did away with things like toasters, electric coffee pots, things like that. We switched from desk tops to lap tops. We have a printing machine that does 100+ copies a minute and do some large printing jobs and that runs off the system just fine. We put away the lazer printers and went with injets, works great. If I need to blow dry my hair I do it. I use a butane curling iron though and it is better than electric.
When we have 3 cloudy days we charge the battery bank with the gas generator. Last year the generator cost us $140 in gas.
Fridge stove and hot water use propane. That is our only utility bill. In the winter we heat and cook with wood so that takes that bill down. We use on average $20/mnth propane.
Next year hopefully we will get our swamp cooler hooked up for cooling. The system will run that fine as well. We don't feel like we are camping. Things just work differently at our house.
We have a staber washing machine that runs off of the system just fine, and recently I figured out how to run the propane dryer off the system as well. I hardly use the dryer but it comes in handy for winter drying.
We hear from the neighbours about the power loss they experience on a fairly regular basis. The bills they receive are getting bigger. We are getting more experienced on our own system and look to ourselves. We will in time add to our panels and put in a bigger battery bank. But we don't suffer the loss of anything we want to do.
It is all what you want and your decision.

[Alex]

Write down all your energy uses and show the watts or amps of each, then a supplier can get you the right sized panel/battery combination. The amps of each appliance, multiplied times the hours or portion of an hour you estimate they will be used in a day: this will give the Amp-Hours, or Watt-Hours needed.

Then select a battery system which will supply twice the daily Amp-Hours adding in the Amp-hours during the cloudy days you expect to be without charging the batteries. Make sure there is a reserve because the batteries will last longer if only discharged to one-half level, instead of fully discharging the rated Amp-Hours. A standby generator is a good idea and will help keep the battery and panel size smaller and less expensive. You and your supplier need to figure out the economics of bigger batteries and panels vs the capital and operating cost (fuel, maintance and replacement).

Charging the batteries with solar panels is figured out the same way. Each solar panel will supply 4.6 amps or 85 watts at ideal conditions. To charge a one-half discharged 370 Amp-Hour, six-volt deep-cycle solar battery, will take about ten hours. For example, a two-array panel will put185 Amp-Hours of energy back into the battery. Or, five hours with a four-array solar panel system will do the same.

There are cloud cover tables which your local supplier will have, so you can figure out what the deductions from ideal conditions you need to apply. Then you can figure out how many panels to buy.

There are two excellent new books, published in BC by New Society Publishers, Renewable Energy Handbook and Real Goods Solar Living Sourcebook, 12th Edition

Good Luck,

Alex

[SolarGary]

Hi,
One thing to think about is that most homes use much more energy for space heating and water heating than they do for things that require electricity. These heating energy needs can be met with solar water heaters and solar space heaters, and these are far more cost effective that solar electric. The amount varies depending on what kind of solar heaters you use, but as a sort of rough number, you can save about 50 times more energy for a dollar spent on solar space or water heating than you can for the same dollar spent on solar electric.
Some solar space and water heating projects can have a payback of one year with you supplying the build it labor -- especially with the high fuel prices of late.

Lots of info here: www.BuildItSolar.com

Good luck on your project!

Gary

[WisJim]

We have been using wind generated electricity since 1977, and solar (PVs) since 1981. We originally went with a wind generator because the cost of the system was about what the utility wanted to charge us to bring in the power lines, and then they would have charged us a minimum monthly bill that was greater than we had been paying in our previous place. When we moved 12 years later we took our system with us, and have added more PVs, a big sine wave inverter, and new batteries, etc., to the system over the years. Our current home is an old farm house and came with lots of grid-powered items, such as a forced air furnace and deep-well submersible pump, that necessitated the large inverter that we now have.

We produce have to 3/4 of the electricity that we use, and we could do lots better if we replaced our 2 freezers with a newer larger one. Wind only makes sense if you have done actually wind measurements over a period of months or longer and have documented that you have adequate wind speed/ Our present home is in a marginal wind location, and it would not pay to buy the generator that we have, but we are using it because it was bought and paid for itself back in the 1970s.

We are in western Wisconsin, and there is plenty of sun to power an off grid home if you size the equipment and batteries adequately.
If you aren't experienced in designing an off-grid electrical system, it is worthwhile to pay an experienced dealer to help you out.

Remember that your PVs, wirinig, mountings for the panels, wind generator and tower, controls and inverters all have a long life, and batteries can last from 2 years to 20+ years depending on the quality and care in use and charging them. By installing an off-grid system you are avoiding electrical bills for many years, and adding to your self-sufficiency.

[Alex]

I think this article in Home Power referenced by Solar Guy is an EXCELLENT method of figuring out what size system you need and the rough cost.

The basic idea is to take a monthly electric bill divdie it by 30 days. Which give you the daily Watt-hours, etc.

This is interesting because it approaches the sizing from your existing energy use. The article also applies a factor 25%, or 75% etc to allow for not supplying all the energy you use now.

Some items as previously pointed out just do NOT belong on solar, because they are such energy hogs. Most resistance heated items are energy hogs (toasters, coffee pots, baseboard heating, electric water heaters, and things like that).

Thanks,

Alex

[JAK]

ebarj1098,

I think the only way it makes sense to go off grid is to reduce you energy needs considerably. The life cycle cost might still be 25 cents/kwh, or even 50 cents/kwh, but if you can get by averaging 2-4 kwh per day then that is still only $1.00 per day, and the capital costs will be reduced proportionally. If you can find a way to dry clothes easily without using so much electricity or gas or propane then the rest should follow easily. You don't have to be inconvenienced. You just have to be more innovative.

Remember that you don't need to come up with a solution that you can sell. It only needs to work. There is a difference.

[Gary in ohio]

Originally Posted by ebarj1098

How do you determine how much power your household needs? We are starting to think about solar or wind and want to figure out our energy usage and go from there. Heard solar was cheaper to start

First off Solar isnt cheap. There is a BIG outlay upfront to make solar work unless your willing to make lots of changes to your lifestyle.

THis was one of my answer in another thread. Might want to search for solar panel on the fourms.
To power a single outlet at 15amps of 120v power 24hrs/day 7 days a week will cost you about $15K That includes panel's batteries and inverter.

Solar is not not cheap if you have an option of getting commerial power. Your going to eat 8K pretty easy in solar unless you make lots of changes to your lifestyle.