how do you fight a quarry operation/

Doc · #1 10/20/05, 08:33 AM

We live about a mile from a stone quarry, as the crow flies. This quarry is noisey, intrusive, and generally obnoxious. To wit: every morning, as soon as it is light, we wake to the pounding of metal on metal from the "jaw crusher"i.e, -- the stone crusher. We hear the "beep beep beep" of the machines loading and backing up. We hear various other machines, too. But it is the jaw crusher that is the most intrusive (take your fist and pound the desk to the count of 4/4 as you read this -- beat hard so that you feel the vibration as well). We get to hear this noise until 7 pm at night, five days a week; and from 7-2 on Saturdays. Pounding. Vibrating through us, in addition to the loud noise of it.

You cannot go outside without being assaulted. Some days it sounds like it is right in the front yard. Even inside, on those days, I can sit in my chair in the living room, and feel/hear the vibration. It is horrible and I cannot describe it to you strongly enough. The thing is-- you can't get away from it. There is no time during the day that we are not subjected to the quarry operation. It is like "Chinese water torture". Most of the time it is so overwhelming, it makes you want to scream.

We have begged, pleaded with the quarry brass to do something about the noise. We tried working with them, and they always had a comeback that they couldn't do anything. This is a six-figure operation, who doesn't have the means to do a few simple things to alleviate the noise.

Several years ago there was a huge fight between the neighborhoods surrounding the quarry and the quarry, itself. The quarry decided it wanted to expand its operation and blow up another hole in the ground, and extend its life here for thirty more years (they were set to stop operations in 2010).

The neighborhoods fought it with the few resources we had (part of the community includes a Habitat neighborhood and another part is historically black). Our efforts were foiled completely. We asked them to put the jaw crusher in the bottom of the stone pit, which they had promised to do back in 1996, by 2004. That never happened. We asked that they restrict the hours of the jaw crusher during the day so that we could enjoy some peace and quiet, without the horrible noise and vibration. They refused. We asked that they buffer the metal/metal pounding of the crusher. They refused. Over and over, they came up with a reason why they couldn't do this or that -- simple things we'd ask for to mitigate the intrusion.

The county commissioners thought we were all a bunch of hysterical "children", and gave the quarry carte blanche to do whatever it needed to do. Afterall, the quarry promised to give the county the holes that would become reservoirs. You know what we got in return? An annual picnic that the quarry has to provide so that we can attend and tour the quarry. I am not joking.

A few of us have now decided to approach the CC again and focus on the issue of noise, only. If the quarry wants to do its thing, fine, but we think it is unacceptable, unethical, if not illegal, for people who live near it to have to hear everything that's going on over there. It's a quality of life issue (not to mention the problems of blasting and foundation movement, wells going dry, underground movement.....many problems).

But we don't really know where to begin. Gather signatures? Noise ordinance for the county? For my part I'd like to rent some type of very sensitive tape recorder so that I can record the level of noise in my front yard, but I don't know what's available. Any ideas?

All this story to ask: has anyone ever been involved in a situation like this? Does anyone know what our rights are as members of a community that have to put up with this horrible industry? Any suggestions for a plan?

We want to be organized and professional about it. There is no way we can hire a lawyer, it would have to be grassroots.

When this all began, the idea I had was for each resident of the community, who was directly affected by the quarry, buy one share of the company, and then become a "group" shareholder. I don't know if this is even legal, but if it is, it could be an effective way to get them to listen. It would be a substantial group of people (if the residents would go for it -- doubtful).

Many of us are at our wits' end. Fighting a multi-million dollar operation is like the story of David and Goliath, especially when the Goliath includes the quarry, the county commissioners, and even the planning director (many believe bought and in the back pocket of the quarry).

For anyone who has been involved in this kind of struggle, we'd like to hear back from you.

Jenn · #2 10/20/05, 08:45 AM

If the quarry is publicly (ie stocks traded) owned ownership is an excelelnt idea. Probab;y too expensive for your neighborhood (if you all were rich they wouldn't even try to screw you this way) to own the whole company but ONE share buys you admission to annual meetings and if 20-70 neighbors tied up the annual meeting every year with stockholder proposals to decrease the noise they'd have to do something- if only vote that only groups with over 100 shares stock get to make proposals at meetings (perhaps illegal).

BamaSuzy · #3 10/20/05, 08:45 AM

I have covered fights to keep quarries, tire landfills, and similar things from opening or expanding.

Was the quarry there when you bought your land? If it was there's not a whole lot you can do. (My pet peeve is people who move to the country and then start trying to change the neighborhood.)

If it wasn't there when you bought your land and you and your neighbors have been there longer, then you have a good chance to go to your county commission or perhaps your county's circuit court and file a nuisance complaint about the noise. If the company has all the environmental permissions and certificates it needs from the local, state, and federal regulations you will not likely be able to stop them on those grounds...

But if you have a state agency such as in Alabama we have the Alabama Department of Environmental Management, you could ask them if there have been any violations in the past few years of environmental problems and if there have, get some environmental groups involved....

There was some sort of "fat" plant in a neighboring county here which a circuit judge shut down and then charged the owners with the clean up because they were breaking all kinds of environmental rules.

If you county commission has already given them carte blanche then you'll have to work around them...

But the main question remains, was the quarry there when you moved there????

BamaSuzy · #4 10/20/05, 08:47 AM

Oh---and if you have been there longer than the quarry, get your local newspaper involved....become friends with a reporter that covers issues such as this....

michiganfarmer · #5 10/20/05, 08:51 AM

Man that sucks. I feel for you. The only thing I can recoment is the lawyer group I am a member of. The moderator is a lawyer from Califonia. He is manic drepressive, old,terribly vulgar, and rude, but he may know of something you can do. Here is the link to the group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Lawyerdude/
Tell him your story.

amelia · #6 10/20/05, 08:57 AM

I might suggest an edit of the above post before you get yourself sued for defamation. Just a suggestion.

Doc · #7 10/20/05, 04:18 PM

Before I bought the property, an old beautiful farm, I took a homeowner's course. One of the things I learned was to go to the planning department to find out what zoning ordinances were planned for your neighborhood. I did that -- to the city and to the county, because I was very concerned about the quarry. I knew that the quarry was scheduled to end its operation in 2012, something like that. I asked, specifically, if there was anything the quarry could do to change that. BOTH departments said NO -- there is nowhere for them to go. The zoning laws showed that they were to shut down operation as scheduled. With that information in mind, I bought the property.

Then the local water utility got involved, approached the quarry to "give" them the watering holes in exchange for 30 more years of operation.

The County Commissioners who considered it a "done deal" held a joint hearing. The place was overflowing with residents who opposed the expansion. The rich quarry aggregate used their money and influence to change the statues in their favor. It was a sham. They treated us like poor dumb children.

We've been lied to up one side and down the other, but when we point it out, it's dismissed. What we need is an smart, mean lawyer, OR a group vote in the stockholder's meeting (my preference). I would love to oust the current CEO who washes his hands of any kind of help (we've asked).

Does anyone know who I would contact locally to find out if that type of business arrangement is legal? What joy it would be for a hundred or so residents to attend the spring stockholder's meeting. A large number might turn their heads, I don't know.

Thanks for the mean-laywer website.

bill not in oh · #8 10/20/05, 05:11 PM

Get some folks with a like point of view to yours to run for the (elected, I assume) commissioners and/or trustee slots on the county commission. Then run the campaign like your lives depended on it.

I doubt seriously that buying even several thousand shares of stock in the corporation will yield any favorable advantage to you. You will likely find that even if it is a publicly traded corporation (and if their revenue is only six digits, I doubt that it is), that the vast majority of the stock is held by the principles of the corporation. Attending annual stockholder meetings would be impractical at best as large corporations often hold these meetings in locations far removed from their corporate headquarters or locations of major operations for the very reason you want to attend - how many of your neighbors could attend a stockholders' meeting in..... say San Diego? However if they are publicly traded, and are as small as you believe, it would not be uncommon to find improprieties in the buying/selling of stock or the accounting and reporting to the SEC. And in the case of a mining company violations of the EPA regulations.

On the staff of one or more of your local newspaper, TV or radio stations is/are some one that is a Jeraldo Rivera wannabe and might just be able to punch enough buttons with their 1st Amendment shield to cause some waves - go find that person(s).

Find your "Tree Hugger" activist groups. Make no mistake I hold no animosity toward groups being passionate about environmental issues so long as they respect the laws of the land and the rights of others. Some of these groups have VERY powerful organizations, huge lobbies at all levels of government and deep enough pockets to wield a pretty large stick. Get them involved - often all you have to do is tell them your story and ask for their help. Just be aware that they get cries for help daily and can't be everything to everybody.

Through the above efforts here's what will likely happen. You (your group of neighbors and concerned citizens) will raise public awareness of the situation, attract like-minded folks, possibly gain the interest of an attorney with a passion for this type of situation ([choking here] yes attorneys are humans and some of them are passionate about human rights and most of them take on pro bono cases that are in line with their passions - especially if there's some publicity in it LOL).

The only experience I personally have that even hints of what you describe is that for a couple of years I lived 300 yards from the end of one of the runways at Hobby (Houston) Airport. At that time it was before Houston Intercontinental was born and it was REALLY busy. I can't imagine that it is more than just that - a HINT of your situation.

One thing is certain. If you are not passionately pro-active, all-consuming proactive, on fire proactive.... nothing will change. I wish you well with your efforts.

By the way, what is the name of the mining company and do you know if they are owned by any other corporation? I may be able to get some usefull (or useless) information. PM me if you're not comfortable making it known publicly.

cfabe · #9 10/20/05, 06:28 PM

They were there first, there's not much you can do. How long have you lived on the property?

Christiaan · #10 10/20/05, 08:58 PM

I think about your only chance would be to get the state involved. Both environmental and health impact. Constant noise and vibration at that level is unhealthy. Its possible that the county could be forced to buy everyone out. But, it will be a long, hard fight and you are going to need some kind of legal help.

peanutgreen · #11 10/20/05, 09:46 PM

It won't do much to stop the noise, but planting some hedges along the edge of your property might help cut down a little bit of the noise.

Cosmic · #12 10/20/05, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BamaSuzy

I have covered fights to keep quarries, tire landfills, and similar things from opening or expanding.

Was the quarry there when you bought your land? If it was there's not a whole lot you can do. (My pet peeve is people who move to the country and then start trying to change the neighborhood.)

But the main question remains, was the quarry there when you moved there????

Yup, you keyed in on the critical point. There are always two sides to most things. If the quarry was there a long time and people moved in close and continued to build houses, they in effect have created the problem.

I know about two such quarry operations. Both were in the Boston area. Same thing happened. The quarries dated back to around the turn of the century. One was within sight of my old house. The city permitted building that eventually became badly impacted by the quarries. But the quarries were there long before the houses that came to complain so much.

The one next to me probably operated for about 15 of the 34 years I lived there. Biggest problem was they continued to increase the size of the blasts they used to loosen rock. Many complains as the old neighborhood changed and the newbies felt they were being unfairly mauled. Nothing could be done, the quarry never accepted any responsibility for damages. I had a couple ceilings crack and several broken windows. One afternoon, one blast knocked me out of bed while taking a nap.

The Boston Fire Dept was responsible for monitoring the blast size. Duh, records were more than TOP Secret Codeword. Nobody ever got a smell of those public records. Nobody from the city would even talk to you. The surrounding areas were also rock that transmitted the blast shock waves very well.

But it showed what happens. They even allowed them to build a shopping mall with stone throwing distance from the quarry. Again Duh, one government agency, didn't even talk to the next. Again blame the quarry because they managed to get about as close as one possibly could.

Eventually the one next to me closed due to mismanagement. It was ringed by houses built right up to the edge. Finally became a dump site for dirt and Lord knows how much hazardous materials from the Big Dig. The shopping mall then became the next outlaw with all the noise they made late at night, especially the vacuum sweeper that ran in the early morning hours. The closing opened up a lot of land for building. Condo heaven on the hillside.

The other quarry remained in operation and even expanded. Zillions of fights with the people who bought the fancy new houses right next to its borders. The builders didn't care, land was land. A sucker is born every minute, no make that every few seconds. You could hear the crushing equipment for a very long way. They also blasted and it was a huge deep, deep hole.

The other side of it that never seemed to be understood was the quarries were very needed. Trucking costs for gravel, sand, stone, etc is a major cost. The two quarries were ideally located to serve a major metropolian area. Closing a quarry can have a lot of nasty results, including employment (it can be a cascade effect), economic and not being able to get certain products. That one next to me had the ideal rock to make the grit that goes on roofing shingles, the next sort of satisfactory site was in New Jersey, but that particular rock was some of the best in the USA.

This really sounds like to me, not properly doing the homework before buying. The local government may understand the value of a quarry to the local economy far more than you understand. Where I now live there are no local quarries with good rock. All the stuff for making concrete must be trucked in, after a good trip via river barge. Gravel here is ~$15 ton versus ~$3.50 in my old location. There are pro's and con's to every situation. Sounds like the fellow is miffed because his ox is being gored but the quarry owners also have an iron in the fire, as do many other interested parties who may need their product.

Maybe another lesson in the Price of Progress and what happens if you get too close to it. Real estate is primarily about Location, Location, Location. Is a bummer if you just happened to pick the wrong Location. Best options, usually are find the Greater Fool, Motivated Buyers who don't ask questions or Other Such Genuii.

In short you are probably screwed fighting city hall. All depends on who got there with the Firstus with the Mostus.

Most quarries are going to be grandfathered in some degree. Moving large masses, as in like quarries, requires massive amounts of power that the average straight leg citizen just ain't going to provide, way above their pay grade.

Bob_W_in_NM · #13 10/21/05, 12:39 AM

Generally, I'd say that if you bought property within earshot of a quarry operation, and you found this objectionable, shame on you. Move back to the city! If you can "stand" it until 2012, I guess you can stand it for longer.

On buying stock in the operation, one share per property owner won't give you any say and IF you are a stockholder, it precludes you from litigating against the corporation. (You can't sue yourself!)

bull · #14 10/21/05, 02:43 AM

i know how you feal i live just a fey blocks from a quary.it is right in town and thair is nothing any one has been able to figgure out to do about it.at least yours dosent blast much the one here isnt a pit opperation thay blast off the side of a large clif.that is the major problem i have with them because the town is bult over a large cave and i am affrade that thare explosives shed will blow up and colaps the cave.also the blasting has messed up the fondations of homes all over town and broke sewer pipes.good luck geting somthing done i hope you have better luck than i have.

johnghagen · #15 10/21/05, 04:34 AM

You dont even have a complain untill 2012 as that was when they were going to move.You bought property next to them knowing they were there so get used to it they are here to stay

Pony · #16 10/21/05, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob_W_in_NM

Generally, I'd say that if you bought property within earshot of a quarry operation, and you found this objectionable, shame on you. Move back to the city! If you can "stand" it until 2012, I guess you can stand it for longer.

The thing is, Doc said it was SUPPOSED to close in 2010 -- and the quarry got a 30 year extension.

Pony!

Ozarks_1 · #17 10/21/05, 08:24 AM

Doc, be REAL careful what you and the neighbors do.

With the Supreme Court's crazy 'eminent domain' ruling, the local politicians might find a way to get rid of "the pesky neighbors" instead of the quarry. The quarry gives them more money ... and that's the name of the game; isn't it?

Paranoid · #18 10/21/05, 08:30 AM

the end of it though is they were there first, and although his initial impression of it's ending date was wrong, the unchangeable fact is, they were there first, and most likely will be there last too.

sell the place?

Shepherd · #19 10/21/05, 08:52 AM

I think your idea for you and all neighbors who can, to buy up shares of the company's stock, get someone to run "for the (elected, I assume) commissioners and/or trustee slots on the county commission" as Bill said.

I'd also contact the local media for some investigative reporting. Tell them you have a good story for them and convince them to bring out some recording equipment. Can't hurt. All they can do is say no.

Sure sorry for what you're going thru - sounds horrible. Money talks, that's for sure. Hard to fight the rich corporations.

cfabe · #20 10/21/05, 09:00 AM

Yep, those evil rich corporations. How dare they continue their business after people chose to build homes all around them on all that cheap land. Gee, maybe the land was cheap for a reason?

I'll bet Doc's house wasn't built with any of the cheap locally sourced quarry products, either.