Wind or Solar?

SouthWesteader · #1 10/03/05, 12:29 AM

Hi guys

I've beeen looking into getting alternative energy, and I was wondering if you could give me your advice on a few things. Solar panels seem the most efficient, but for my 5-7kw power needs, the price would be $20000-30000!

On the other hand wind is much more unpredictable. Also, how much propane a month would a 10kw generator take if it was run 1 out every 2 days?

Thanks for any advice/info!

John

Oregonsparkie · #2 10/03/05, 07:03 AM

Your correct about wind and solar. Ive looked into some of those propane gens. A cant remember the exact amount of propane used but it seems to me it was about 4 - 7 gallons per hour.

WanderingOak · #3 10/03/05, 07:51 AM

One thing about going off-grid is that it usually involves a complete lifestyle change. You need to look at every electrically powered 'modern convenience' that you have and ask yourself "Can I live without this?". Many electic devices such as coffee pots, refrigerators, well pumps etc have non-electric alternatives. If your power needs are still at the 5-7Kw range, then you have three choices: 1) Re-evaluate your power needs once again, 2) Shell out the big bucks for a large off-grid system, 3) Re-eveluate your desire to go off-grid.

fordy · #4 10/03/05, 09:12 AM

..................If , you're going to be using a genset 50% of the time you should be focusing upon diesel gensets , EXclusively !! They are the MOST efficient of the "fueled" methods of power generation . Plus , you're going to get maybe 20,000 hours out of a diesel engine if serviced per mfger requirements . Diesel will last several years if treated with the proper preseratives . fordy...

Jim-mi · #5 10/03/05, 12:06 PM

........"5-7kw power needs".............wow

I would suggest that the first thing you do is a major audit of "your needs"

Every watt you don't use is a watt you don't need to generate

Unless of course you have very deep pockets. ....
If that is the case then there are enough of us who will gladly design a system to accomadate your needs.

The likes of "Northern Tool" catalogs have many gen's for sale and most all of them state the fuel consumption.

jgbndaudio · #6 10/03/05, 12:45 PM

Hello,

Fordy is right here! A Diesel Generator is by far the best solution. Plus it can run on alternative fuels. (BioDiesel, WVO, SVO).

Also, the future price prospects of propane are questionable now. It's going to get very expensive in the next couple months/years. It won’t be long before it becomes the most expensive form of power because it is a by-product from two sources: natural gas processing and crude oil refining. Add that to the fact that it needs to be delivered. And you can see why it’s going to not be good for people that rely on propane. (Such as myself currently)

Oh course you really need to re-evaluate how much power you need. It costs roughly $5 to create a watt but only costs $1 if you spend money saving watts. So you can see that efficiency should be your first investment. Until you’re as efficient as you can be, there's just no financial sense spending money to get some sort of AE supply.

Feel free to email if you have any specific questions.
Scott
http://scottarmstrong.blogspot.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordy

..................If , you're going to be using a genset 50% of the time you should be focusing upon diesel gensets , EXclusively !! They are the MOST efficient of the "fueled" methods of power generation . Plus , you're going to get maybe 20,000 hours out of a diesel engine if serviced per mfger requirements . Diesel will last several years if treated with the proper preseratives . fordy...

james dilley · #7 10/03/05, 12:52 PM

There was A article on CNN this A M about solar A fellow out of Maine or it might have been N Y put in solar the cost was $75,000.00 but after tax credits and rebates from the Gov't. his out of pocket was $7,000.00 his electric bill was $428. a month now he has none.

WisJim · #8 10/03/05, 02:30 PM

Deciding on solar or wind depends, of course on how much wind you have. You cannot decide until you actually take some measurements over a period of time to see what wind you really have. Solar you can estimate from some of the many maps etc out there, but wind is much more site specific. If you don't have at least 10 to 12mph average winds, or more, don't bother spending the money on wind generators, unless it is for a little more power on a very occassional basis.
My recommendation: Pare your usage way down, get a good diesel generator, batteries, and inverter, and then start buying solar panels to keep the batteries charged with minimal use of the generator. You want the generator to take you through times of low sun/wind or high usage, but the solar panels can be added at any time in almost any quantity, and will reduce your generator usage.
What we did: Started with no power, got batteries, generator and old wind generator, and then solar electric when it became available, and added electrical consumers as we had more available power.

Gary in ohio · #9 10/03/05, 02:46 PM

Unless your on the coast where winds are constant or in the desert were sun is constant you will find you can need a mix of soalr, wind, hydro and fossil fuels generators to keep a solar system running.

bryon huff · #10 10/03/05, 02:59 PM

I use all 3 honda gen for the well and soler and wind to charge 8 6volt battarys

afrikaner · #11 10/03/05, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary in ohio

Unless your on the coast where winds are constant or in the desert were sun is constant you will find you can need a mix of soalr, wind, hydro and fossil fuels generators to keep a solar system running.

Amen!
I also agree with previous statements about propane prices on the rise and that you need to run a 3 tiered syste, Have Solar and Wind during the day with a sensor attached - whenever you dip below a certain KW level, the genset kicks in. One of the older generators that still work best - the Lister- will give you awesome fuel economy. You can also use WVO and if you live in the South East (which you don't

) you can always get a Waffle House to give you their old oil - filter, treat and use it. Free fuel.
But the key is - cut out incandescent light bulbs, tanked water heaters, wall-warts and other sleeper devices - then build a 3 tiered system consisting of solar,wind and diesel genset. I would advise getting a windmill or solar powered water pump for your well and other remote devices like a gate or lighting system for a barn - it takes a lotta power to carry power over those distances. If you have a grid tie-in system, you could even make money! The utility companies must pay you for any electricity generated over what you use. Also look into getting kerosene or low voltage Fridge - the low voltage units are a bit smaller, but work just as well and won't kill your usage.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.

fordy · #12 10/03/05, 06:00 PM

...............Onan , which is owned by Cummins , makes several small diesel gensets starting at 5,500 watts up to 12 kw . The 10 kw and 12 kw are both low speed\rpm models and produce max wattage at 1800 rpm . fordy...

SouthWesteader · #13 10/04/05, 03:01 AM

Thanks for your replies! Diesel generators sound efficient, but wouldn't they be smelly? I get headaches from diesel, and I don't particularly like my backyard smelling like a fats-food restaurant (typo deliberate). The combo of solar wind, and generator sounds good. I couldn't find the fuel consumption on NorthernTool's website. Is it in the catalog only? Maybe if I look through my worn-out tool catalogs/flyers I may be able to find my Spring 2005 master catalog.

Quote:

Originally Posted by afrikaner

If you have a grid tie-in system, you could even make money! The utility companies must pay you for any electricity generated over what you use.

My electricity company has a way of getting around that, called "Net Energy Metering" They give you non-cash energy credits for your excess power, which reset every year!

Quote:

Originally Posted by james dilley

There was A article on CNN this A M about solar A fellow out of Maine or it might have been N Y put in solar the cost was $75,000.00 but after tax credits and rebates from the Gov't. his out of pocket was $7,000.00 his electric bill was $428. a month now he has none.

Where I live, two 3.25kw turbines would cost about $600 after state rebates.

Quote:

One thing about going off-grid is that it usually involves a complete lifestyle change. You need to look at every electrically powered 'modern convenience' that you have and ask yourself "Can I live without this?". Many electic devices such as coffee pots, refrigerators, well pumps etc have non-electric alternatives. If your power needs are still at the 5-7Kw range, then you have three choices: 1) Re-evaluate your power needs once again, 2) Shell out the big bucks for a large off-grid system, 3) Re-eveluate your desire to go off-grid.

Most (1/3) of my power usage is computers; I run a bunch of server comps, and they're real power hogs! If I do the wind/solar/gen combo, it shouldn't cost that much.

Thanks again for your replies!

John

mightybooboo · #14 10/04/05, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthWesteader

Where I live, two 3.25kw turbines would cost about $600 after state rebates.

John

That doesnt sound right,can you post your figures?

BooBoo

WanderingOak · #15 10/04/05, 05:59 AM

If the server room is designed properly with passive cooling and natural airflow in mind, you may be able to get by without as large an air handler as you would otherwise. That could give you substantial power savings during daylight hours.

Jim-mi · #16 10/04/05, 12:26 PM

I'm afraid you've been fed some mis information about
wind turbines-rebates-$$$.

I install wind/PV systems and shure would like to know about which that you have posted about.

The system that I'm puting in right now (10k wind, bats, 4 inverters stacked, 15k propane gen) will be in the 90k $ range.

600 sounds good, but it isn't real world.........................

SouthWesteader · #17 10/04/05, 03:32 PM

Quote:

That doesnt sound right,can you post your figures?

It's only the turbines, not poles, installation, etc. which are also somewhat costly...

Whisper 500 Turbine:$5,627 x 2 = $11,254
California Renewable Energy Rebate 1.70/watt x 3,200 = $5,440 x 2 = $10,880
http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/.../new_info.html
$11,254 - $10,880 = $374

But installation/poles is another issue.

mightybooboo · #18 10/04/05, 04:45 PM

I believe that rebate is only for a full system install,and has to be utility grid connected.You should be able to recoup about 50% of costs,if you are a business its even better.
But I would check with someone who has done it first to get real world numbers.
I base this reply on many of the fine articles Ive read at

www.homepower.com

BooBoo

mightybooboo · #19 10/04/05, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim-mi

I'm afraid you've been fed some mis information about
wind turbines-rebates-$$$.

I install wind/PV systems and shure would like to know about which that you have posted about.

The system that I'm puting in right now (10k wind, bats, 4 inverters stacked, 15k propane gen) will be in the 90k $ range.

600 sounds good, but it isn't real world.........................

Jim,Im curious what state you are in and the rebates you are familiar with there,If you dont mind my asking.Always like numbers from 'thems thats doing'

Thanks.

BooBoo

SouthWesteader · #20 10/04/05, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mightybooboo

I believe that rebate is only for a full system install,and has to be utility grid connected.You should be able to recoup about 50% of costs,if you are a business its even better.
But I would check with someone who has done it first to get real world numbers.

BooBoo

It would be utility connected. Would it have to be some county official installing it, to get the rebates, or could my neighbor (a lifetime housing contractor) install it?