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  #1  
Old 09/19/11, 06:01 AM
 
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Family tree advice, please!

For some time I've been working on my family tree, to the exclusion of just about everything else, and I've managed to go back a very L-O-N-G way. The discovery of a direct ancestor in the 16th century whose father was Sir Something (indicative that he was amongst the social elite) was a massive breathrough, providing line after line of ancestors.

I have been diligent and very cautious in my research. I don't want just a list of famous names or a fudged-up genealogy - I want FACTS and documents (or artifacts) to back up those facts. A major problem has been sorting the wheat from the chaff - all over the world, people of historical significance have fudged-up their ancestries to include their particular deities and myths - the Vikings were good at it, so were the Egyptians, the Celts, the Greeks, the Romans and just about everybody else!

I don't want to offend anyone, but in the past I've made it abundantly clear that I'm not a religious person, and to me the Bible is simply an interesting collection of stories - some believable, some not. There ARE historical facts, including people, but in many cases the history is sadly tangled up with myth, legend and superstition. So I don't take it as Gospel (excuse the pun).

Which brings me to a dilemma. I am currently working on an ancient branch of the family who lived in Britain (in and near modern Wales). These people had a lot of contact with the Roman invaders. Some of those Romans were converted Christians, some had married Jewish partners, some married pagans and remained pagans. So it was all a glorious mish-mash of religions and races. I've been astonished at how much travelling those ancient peoples did - consider how much of the world was occupied by the Romans, and how far and wide those Vikings and Celts got to!

Anyway (subject to further research), it seems that I might be descended from one Joseph of Arimathea. Depending on which website you go to, he might have been the uncle of Mary, the father of Jesus. Again depending on who you choose to believe, his daughter was one Anna or Enygeus 'The Prophetess' of Amimathea. If the story is true that Joseph and a group of close relatives (including a young Jesus and his mother) over to Britain, apparently this Anna married one of the local Kings of Siluria, ruled by a tribe calling themselves the Silures.

There's no denying that some of these people actually existed, but as with so much of ancient history, facts have become so enmeshed with myth and legend that it's difficult to extract the cold, hard, undeniable FACT.

So I'd appreciate some input. Does anyone here know of any certifiable PROOF that Joseph of Arimathea actually DID go to Britain? I'm aware of some information that is INDICATIVE of it, but none of it is conclusive, irrevocable proof.

It gets more complicated when you find that Joseph's story is often associated with the legend of King Arthur - who probably existed at some stage, but the historical facts have been buried in the shrouds of fantasy.

Thing is, some of the writers of articles and creators of family trees are more gullible than others. There are family trees out there which take families back to Adam and Eve (about whose existence I am extremely skeptical, believing they are allegorical), and some have even taken themselves all the way back to the God revered by Christians, Jews and Muslims alike (I am not a believer at all) -and even beyond! All of which is a far cry from what I want for MY family tree - not beliefs, but FACTS.

Can anyone offer any advice? I'd appreciate it very much if I wasn't subjected to sermons - but I'd really be grateful for useful information in my quest for historical accuracy.

Basically, what I'm looking for is information about the extended family of Jesus - is there PROOF that he had a brother James (who might also have a place in my family tree)? Is there any PROOF that Joseph of Arimathea went to Britain? etc.

Sorry I've been so long-winded with this post, or have trodden on anybody's toes! I'd be glad of your input.
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  #2  
Old 09/19/11, 07:22 AM
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England was on the edge but still part of the Roman Empire She had long enjoyed trade with the Romans.
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  #3  
Old 09/19/11, 07:23 AM
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I think when you're back in the 1600's you tread on thin ice in genealogical research and connecting your family there. There are very little records and anyone could say they were related to anyone else. The LDS church doesn't recognize any research done by members past 1600. It doesn't mean you can't submit it to their databases, just that you can't submit the names for church ordinances - which might not tell you anything but tells me quite a bit.

If I don't have the proof in my hand - as in original records - I don't use it.

They had a program on TV once about Mary (Jesus' mother)going to Britain also, but they said it was only rumor and the rumor included Mary Magdalene going with her. Not something I'd stake my genealogical work on.
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  #4  
Old 09/19/11, 07:46 AM
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And did those feet in ancient time.
Walk upon England's mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On Englands pleasant pastures seen!

And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark Satanic Mills?

Bring me my Bow of burning gold;
Bring me my Arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!

I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In Englands green & pleasant Land
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  #5  
Old 09/19/11, 08:32 AM
 
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Some families and church records were kept as early as the 1600's, but no written genealogical records were kept before the 1600's. For the most part, families did not even have surnames that early in time. So it is impossible to trace family lines beyond the 1600's. I rely on documented sources; usually church records. There simply is no documented family data from the 1500's to the time of Jesus.
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  #6  
Old 09/19/11, 08:58 AM
 
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I suppose it all depends on just who your ancestors were. In previous centuries, if you were wealthy and/or had political power, you had a far better chance of having your details recorded (eg church records of births, deaths, marriages, or your name and that of your father, perhaps your wife, recorded in a legal document) than if you were poor.

Also, some places were more diligent at keeping records than others. There are some remarkable documents still surviving, from which huge amounts of genealogical data can be retrieved. Some of these ancient 'documents' are actually carved into stone! Most of this stuff is now stored in museums and the like, but they are accessible to researchers, photographs have been taken of them, they've been published on the WWW, books have been written about them - if you know where to look, there's information and confirmation just about everywhere. I might not be able to get it into my hot little hand, but a photo of it does me just as well.

Way back when, when the population was much smaller, and there was a King (call him a Chief, or a Leader if you will) governing an area not much larger than, say, a modern city, it was much easier to be acquainted with or related to a king than most people in today's world. Those '7 degrees of separation' had much more meaning then than now.

Also, it was much easier to go from rags to riches than it is today. Just as easy to go from riches to rags, too - and perhaps see-saw back and forth, all in the matter of a couple of generations! I have several such instances in my family tree. It mattered a lot more then who you supported in a political matter - you could end up fabulously wealthy and powerful, or you could end up losing your house (castle) and your livelihood - if not your head! - if you backed the wrong political horse or 'your side' lost a battle.

Yes, trade was pretty world-wide (as it was known then) as it is today. For example, the Romans had 'business contacts' all the way from Northern Africa, through the Middle East, all the way through both Western and Eastern Europe, to England and beyond, and via Asia Minor (covering modern places like Turkey, Iran and Iraq), and even across to China. As now, it wasn't unusual for a 'travelling salesman' to decide to settle in a place far away from home, and to marry somebody local, and have children who might also inherit the 'travel bug' and do likewise.

A petty Roman official, sent to look after some impossibly remote outpost, could easily get lonely and marry a local girl. He'd have to notify his superiors in Rome of the event, of course, and generally keep them informed. The Romans were very good at record-keeping. If the girl he married was from, say, from the tribe of the Franks, or the Huns, who also kept records, then it's entirely likely that amongst her ancestry were Vikings, or Turks - because there was a lot of interaction amongst all those groups.

It's too easy for us now to forget that, for instance, the last Pharoahs of Egypt were actually Greek, and when they weren't busy marrying each other, they married into families from all over their considerable domain, and neighbouring ones like Syria, parts of what is now Pakistan, and further east - or north-east, towards modern France, Germany, Bulgaria etc.

When you look at the wider picture, it's easy to see just how widely genes were spread! It only takes one person of, say, mixed Greek/Roman/Turkish ancestry to marry another of, say, French/Russian/British blood and you've got an almighty conglomeration of genes.

Speaking of documents and the like - I've been astonished to discover just how much can be learned from, say, an illustration in a manuscript, or from a statue, or a tomb effigy - much as we get today from an old gravestone which might record the names and dates of a man, his wife, and the names of his children - sometimes the names of his parents. This is what I call really solid evidence.

I've had some extraordinary luck, really. There is one case where I stumbled across a picture on the internet of the interior of an old church in England. There was a bad photo, and a short legend which mentioned a family name which was vaguely familiar - I think it was the maiden name of somebody's wife. Well, I emailed the PR person at that church, requesting a better photo of the 'interesting bit' and any information they might have on the person concerned, and his family.

The following morning (TRUE!) I got a reply - complete with photo and pages and pages of information from the church's archives. It seemed my 'obscure little woman' came from a very important family indeed, numbers of whose names occur in legal documents and the like. It's hard to refute evidence like that. This particular 'little woman' was born in the 10th century, and her line to the present day is well documented all the way through. Amazing stuff.

Don't worry - I've come across my fair share of brick walls, too!

Back to my point, however. Is there any solid evidence of Joseph of Arimathea (et al) having gone to Britain?
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  #7  
Old 09/19/11, 09:18 AM
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Culpepper, I think you need to consult with a religious historian (not a preacher per se), who specializes in Early English History.

Perhaps a university could be of assistance to you? I knew a man who was a Phd in Religious History and a teacher/professor/minister that studied at Oxford. Brilliant fellow, but very hard to get in touch with. He would know how to look into this as he is quite resourceful.

Unfortunately I moved and have lost contact with him, but you need someone like him to assist you. It is a specialized narrow focus but I am sure that someone has your answer or at least can point you in the right direction.
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  #8  
Old 09/19/11, 09:59 AM
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Yes, there are records past the 1600's, my mother's family is proof of it. The Euro part originally came from France, the earliest was 1599.
However, churches burn, information gets lost forever. And I found that you really have to go to where the ancestors lived when you get back that far and do the paper search in person.
I am lucky because I had an relative do some of the leg work for me.

Some lines are easier to find. Like Baron Mius d'Etremont, easy to find in the records and his ancestors where part of the Royal Court in France before he went to Acadia. But other lines, where not so easy, like the cooper(barrel maker) in another line, I could not go past a certain point.

It is a fun journey, good luck!
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  #9  
Old 09/19/11, 10:43 AM
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When you go back that far, take things with a grain of salt. Things get complicated.

For instance, "Mary Magdalene". Magdalene MEANT something: she would either be Mary the hairdresser, or Mary from the local town of Magdala. Nobody is quite sure.....

Once apon a time, last names were often either your occupation or what you did: you were not neccesarily born with it. It was just a way to know which John you were talking about, or which Mary. And, there might have been more than one Joseph from the town of Arimathea who decided to travel. Your own Joseph of Arimathea might, or might not, be the one from the Bible.

Last edited by Terri; 09/19/11 at 10:47 AM.
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  #10  
Old 09/19/11, 12:09 PM
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wonder where you were Culpeper and if you were okay. good to see you back. ~Georgia.
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  #11  
Old 09/19/11, 12:15 PM
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Hmmm... if you google Joseph of Arimethea in Britain you can find tons of historical chatter and documentation of the visit... including the routes etc... sources from the Vatican on down.
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