Calvinism/ Arminianism

MidwestGal · #1 12/31/10, 12:35 AM

Which way do you lean more towards and why? This is NOT for conflict, I am soul-searching, if you will.

Cara · #2 12/31/10, 01:45 AM

We are part of an Armenian leaning church and that is the doctrine I have always held to. I go round and round in my own head about it, however. Most of the time I am able to just let it be a Divine mystery that I won't understand this side of heaven, but sometimes I try to reason it out and make myself crazy. Hope you make headway on your soul searching.

Horselover · #3 12/31/10, 03:22 AM

MidWest Gal
I am so glad that you posted this question. I did a little research on the computer about the differences. I see some things in each that I do not totally agree with. However, the important thing is to know that you are saved and will spend eternity with the Lord Jesus. Never let debates and conflicts of thoughts interrupt your spiritual life or cause division among God's people.

That said: The one thing that I strongly believe is once saved always saved. . That is Calvinistic.

Joyce

farmmom · #4 12/31/10, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horselover

MidWest Gal
I am so glad that you posted this question. I did a little research on the computer about the differences. I see some things in each that I do not totally agree with. However, the important thing is to know that you are saved and will spend eternity with the Lord Jesus. Never let debates and conflicts of thoughts interrupt your spiritual life or cause division among God's people.

That said: The one thing that I strongly believe is once saved always saved. . That is Calvinistic.

Joyce

I agree Joyce. Any time you start leaning on human interpretations, there are going to be errors and conflict. That being said, I also believe once saved is always saved (as long as you are truely saved). I believe it is possible to make a profession (change of mind) without true conversion (change of heart).

jrpoland · #5 12/31/10, 08:01 AM

An excellent resource to examine the differences between the two is a book called "TULIP: The Five Points of Calvinism in the Light of Scripture" by Duane Edward Spencer. You can get it on Amazon for about $9.

It is such a good book because it outlines the scripture references that both sides utilize and obviously it sides with Calvinism, hence the name.

You asked what we believe, but you also said you were searching, so that is why I included the book recommendation.

I'm a Primitive Baptist. We are similar to Calvanism, with a couple of notable differences, but I'd side with Calvanism in this poll.

Why I side with Calvanism is a longer answer, but the basic reason is because I firmly believe that this is what the bible says. If the bible is the holy, inspired word of God and is absolutely infalliable, then I must believe what it says. When I read it, study it, and prayerfully consider it, I believe it supports the Calvanistic view. That is the "why" to your question (and also why I gave the book reference, because it very succinctly lays out the argument).

Good luck and many blessings in your research.

deaconjim · #6 12/31/10, 08:19 AM

I am more Arminian in my belief. I do believe that once a person is truly saved, they will always be saved, so I suppose on that point I would be considered Calvinistic.

mountainlaurel · #7 12/31/10, 08:22 AM

I believe that salvation is a gift, you can take the gift, refuse the gift, or take the gift and later on leave it. I know, I've walked away from it and come back.

Judas Iscariot was one of Jesus' own disciples, and yet he betrayed Him. I don't say which camp or side I'm on, I just am speaking from scripture and my own experience.

The problem with once saved always saved is that so many people think they can't lose their salvation and they can do anything they want but if you sin, you still need to ask for forgiveness for that sin and what if you die before you have the chance to ask?

And you can walk away. Thank goodness for forgiveness.

michelleIL · #8 12/31/10, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainlaurel

I believe that salvation is a gift, you can take the gift, refuse the gift, or take the gift and later on leave it. I know, I've walked away from it and come back.

Judas Iscariot was one of Jesus' own disciples, and yet he betrayed Him. I don't say which camp or side I'm on, I just am speaking from scripture and my own experience.

The problem with once saved always saved is that so many people think they can't lose their salvation and they can do anything they want but if you sin, you still need to ask for forgiveness for that sin and what if you die before you have the chance to ask?

And you can walk away. Thank goodness for forgiveness.

right on! I'm neither myself, more pentecostal in my experience and don't know what armenian even is much less profess one or the other.

**Cabin Fever** · #9 12/31/10, 09:40 AM

I am a very simple man. I have no idea what Calvinism or Arminism ever are. I think many people are turned off by man-made "ism" and theologies. To many of them, being saved seems so complicated and mysterious. I can understand why people get "turned off" by church and religion.

All I need is one claim that Jesus made in John 6:47 "He who believes will have eternal life." How simple is that??? You can keep all your theories, interpretations, endless discussions and heated arguements over which philosophy is right or wrong. I'm sticking with John 6:47.

mnn2501 · #10 12/31/10, 09:56 AM

I gotta agree with Cabin Fever: I believe.
Certainly I do not want to start an argument but I can't understand how anyone who has read the Bible can believe in Calvinism -- You have to throw out a lot of scripture to be able to believe that in my opinion. Yes you can point to a verse here and there that appear to support it, but when you take scripture as a whole I just don't see it myself.

mommathea · #11 12/31/10, 09:56 AM

I can't say that I'm a Calvinist. I'm a Christian. I believe the way of Christ. But that in saying, my beliefs, what I believe the Bible leads me to believe regarding God, Christ, Holy Spirit, Bible and Salvation line up more with a Calvinistic view point.

But the time we figure out God, he would cease to become God in our minds. To know and understand the way's of God would to be equal with God. The Bible also warns not to add nor detract from the word of God, so we must be careful with adding our own ideas and philosophies to what we believe.
God is infinite, and unchangeable, he's the beginning and the end. The Bible says that Jesus is the way the truth and the life. No man can come to the Father but by him, and I thank God every day that he has chosen me to be his child. And I rest in the knowledge that neither life, nor death...nor anything made, nor things not made can separate me from the love of God.
Your faith, your belief must be Gods, and it must be made in the knowledge of the scriptures. Anything beyond that doesn't really matter a whole lot in the realms of eternity!

6e · #12 12/31/10, 10:31 AM

I don't know that one needs to define themselves as either one. I see that they both have points that I agree with, but I see that they are both wrong on points as well. I agree with a previous poster that as soon as we start relying and defining ourselves by someone else's ideas. I do think that once we are saved, we cannot lose that salvation. That is purely a work of God and it is by His grace we are saved purely by our faith in Jesus Christ. This pretty much sums it up for me and what everything else I believe rests on. :-)

deaconjim · #13 12/31/10, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cabin Fever

I am a very simple man. I have no idea what Calvinism or Arminism ever are. I think many people are turned off by man-made "ism" and theologies. To many of them, being saved seems so complicated and mysterious. I can understand why people get "turned off" by church and religion.

All I need is one claim that Jesus made in John 6:47 "He who believes will have eternal life." How simple is that??? You can keep all your theories, interpretations, endless discussions and heated arguements over which philosophy is right or wrong. I'm sticking with John 6:47.

That pretty much sums it up. I don't really fit into a denomination, nor either of the "isms". If I had to choose a label, it would have to be Armivinism.

AngieM2 · #14 12/31/10, 10:42 AM

I'll go with Cabin Fever's interpretation.

These 'isms' just seems a nit-picking bit of man.
And the words sure can cause problems.

nodak3 · #15 12/31/10, 12:17 PM

There is truth and error in both systems.

I fall out more dispensational free grace, but not hard line on that.

Some call me modified Arminian because I believe "whosoever will." Others call me Calvinist because I believe once saved always saved.

I tend to think both God's sovereign control AND man's free agency are taught in the Bible. Kind of depends on are you looking at God's point of view or ours?

But that said, I avoid like the plague the kind of Arminianism that keeps you focused on your own bellybutton checking to see if you lost your salvation, and the MacArthur kind of Calvinism that keeps you checking that bellybutton to see if your works prove you actually ever were saved.

I guess mildly Calvinistic is a good label for me. I highly suggest getting a Ryrie study Bible or a Charles Stanley Lifelessons one, or even better yet get the old Stanley books "Eternal Security" and "The Wonderful Spirit-filled Life." The Old Scofield (not a fan of the newer Scofield) is good.

Mainly, just keep your eyes on Jesus and His work on our behalf.

cindy-e · #16 12/31/10, 12:39 PM

I think these are important discussions because theology is just a fancy term for your belief about God. And it impacts your behavoir. So for example, if you are a Calvanist, you believe everything you do is preordained and there is nothing you can do about that. So, for example, "when it's your time to go, it's your time to go", and if you die young, it wasn't because you ate fast food every day of your life, it was simply your time to go. If it wasn't your time to go, you could eat that way till you were 100 and it wouldn't kill you.

But if you are Armenian, you believe God is big enough to give you the right to make your own choices and yet He is still in complete control, executing time to the point that everything ends with "His Will". But for you personally, that can have all sorts of outcomes based on YOUR behavior. So if you eat fast food every day of your life and you die young, you have caused your own demise, shortened your own life.

It also impacts how you see giving grace to people. That would be hard to explain here, but I've been to churches that teach both things, and it does. Grace is a particular strength of a Calvinist church, because they consider that if you did a bad thing, you really had no choice. And God's umbrella for that is grace. It makes it easier to deal with bad behavior without considering it a terrible personal failure. But then again, holding people accountable to a standard of behavior and attempting to inspire people toward personal moral growth is a particular stength of Armenian churches because they believe that your choices really matter. Both things are good in a way.

So, *to me* this is not just a ridiculous argument. It has import in the real world. But obviously, from some of the other threads I have started lately, I am still slightly on the fence about this one. I go to a church that is very Calvinist. I have armenian leanings. I wonder if the truth isn't something like a both/and that we will never really understand this side of heaven. I wonder if the question isn't flawed because we think there is a conflict between the two simply because we can't think like God, and don't know what it is like to have no limitations.

OK, REALLY need to go run. L!

Cindyc.

Sonshine · #17 12/31/10, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainlaurel

I believe that salvation is a gift, you can take the gift, refuse the gift, or take the gift and later on leave it. I know, I've walked away from it and come back.

Judas Iscariot was one of Jesus' own disciples, and yet he betrayed Him. I don't say which camp or side I'm on, I just am speaking from scripture and my own experience.

The problem with once saved always saved is that so many people think they can't lose their salvation and they can do anything they want but if you sin, you still need to ask for forgiveness for that sin and what if you die before you have the chance to ask?

And you can walk away. Thank goodness for forgiveness.

I agree with you. The Bible tells us that no one can snatch us from God's hand, BUT, it doesn't say we can't walk away. Bottom line for me though, is when you read the Bible, pray for God to reveal the truth to you. Trust no man's interpretations. The Holy Spirit was sent to lead us in all truths. I believe that if a person is truly seeking answers, the the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to you.

nodak3 · #18 12/31/10, 01:49 PM

Calvinism does NOT teach that everything we do is preordained. That is false.

Predestination has to do with who is elect and who is not elect, not the belief that everything we do is somehow ordained.

Calvinists still believe in free agency rather than free will. It is a long definition so google them.

And those that believe in God's perseverance with the saints, or once saved always saved, do not believe or teach that what we do has no consequences here or in eternity.

There is an old saying: there is no justification without regeneration. That means that those that think Calvinists can get saved and go live like the devil do not understand that Calvinists believe that the saved person won't want to go live like the devil.

But basically it does break down to this: do you believe salvation is faith plus works equals salvation, or do you believe it is faith plus salvation equals works?

Jerngen · #19 12/31/10, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cabin Fever

I am a very simple man. I have no idea what Calvinism or Arminism ever are. I think many people are turned off by man-made "ism" and theologies. To many of them, being saved seems so complicated and mysterious. I can understand why people get "turned off" by church and religion.

All I need is one claim that Jesus made in John 6:47 "He who believes will have eternal life." How simple is that??? You can keep all your theories, interpretations, endless discussions and heated arguements over which philosophy is right or wrong. I'm sticking with John 6:47.

Right on!!!

griz7674 · #20 12/31/10, 05:23 PM

For those that profess to be Calvinistic in nature, let me pose a question for you.....

If you are saved (accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior), then go about living your life apart from God, are you still saved? I've known many Christian people who due to circumstanced in their lives (say the death of a child) that walk away from God. So, are they still saved?

Bob