Should h.s. students be divided into votech & college-prep?

[bookfarmer]

Here in Michigan the governor is pushing for high schools to have a completely college-prep curriculum. Many people are objecting because they say not all kids want/need to go to college. In places like Germany, kids are tested and placed into tracks of vocational and college-prep. In general, once in a track they can't switch out, especially from votech to college-prep.

Do you think the U.S. should have a system like the Germans? It seems to me to make a lot of sense and would save a lot of grief with kids taking classes that direct them towards a real job after high school.

[arkansastwist]

my school did let you choose which prep you wanted to go with, even got a stamp on my diploma showing i went the the tech prep courses

[heather]

the phrases "kids are tested" & "they can't switch out" & "like the Germans" would cause me to run in the other direction
*shrug*

[treasureacres]

I do not like the testing deciding for everyone but I wish more kids had the "choice" to option out for that kind of plan. If the plan consisted of a combination of at least earning a G.E.D. type degree to go with vocational program, the student could still opt to at least go to a junior college if they changed their mind later.

[Jenn]

The local here, and my excellent HS in hte 70s-80s (probably now too) has academic (honors) and nonacademic tracks. AL itself has lower requirements for the nonhonors track. I prefer it at the same school so kids can change minds, honors kids can do shop, etc.

[A'sta at Hofstead]

Most schools do have a voc tech program as it is.

[r93000]

I don't have a problem with a dual track program, but would have a problem with it being based on test results instead of a personal decision.

Where I'm from you could either go college prep or vo-tech. Both earned high school diplomas. College prep prepared you to attend a four year university and so did vo-tech if you planned wisely. The vo-tech program also granted certifications in the area you studied and the credit was transferable to community colleges in order to have a leg up on getting an associate's degree or you could take the straight out of high school certifications and get a job in your field.

It really was an equal opportunity type thing so long as the student put effort into it. I personally chose a college prep course, and I currently hold a BA in History minor in Psycholgy - let me tell you I love what I studied, but is it an in demand degree during an economy like this? I'll let you be the judge of that Now I have the decision of spending for a grad degree or using a trade skill...

[DW]

NO but when I went to school many yrs ago that is what happened. I got stuck in college prep b/c of scores. Graduated f/HS said I'd never go back to school. I will retire this yr...30 yrs as a teacher!!! I think kids should choose BUT if they don't...I'm not sure. It worked out well for me.

[plumcreekfarm]

No. I loved voag even though I left high school early and got my BS at 20. College kids need more real life skills. How many bankers, lawyers, doctors can't do basic home repairs (which might come in handy for them these days)? I did FFA /Voag even though it wasn't an ap class and it lowered my GPA and just taking it knocked me out of the valadictorian race. Learned so many things useful to me today and I can't say that about AP geometry although it does occasionally come in handy.

[farmerbrown]

As long as those students who have been tested can still change their minds and experience the 'other side' it is a great idea. Testing and having programs available for kids to take advantage of is great, however, I know several folks working in the trades after getting a 'traditional' (college) education because they wanted to move closer to home (rural) and know people who had planned on going the trade school route but felt more challenged by doing the college MBA thing.

It really doesn't matter much anyway, as people are not only changing jobs more frequently these days but entire career paths.

[foxtrapper]

Baseing it on testing is a problem. Use me as an example of why.

I tested well, but was a disaster as a teenager. There wasn't a chance that I'd have made it in college. Vo-Tech for me was a great decision. Instead of flunking Algebra, I was mastering how to balance a set of business books. Instead of english lit, I was learning how to write contracts.

Years later, when I grew up. Then I became college eligible material. At which point my highschool grades didn't matter anyhow.

[Kris in MI]

I'll try to keep this short, but it's a hot button for me. . . Partly because I live in MI, partly because I have 4 kids, all very smart, who have varying learning styles and interests (which has greatly affected their school experience--the active, investigative ones are often falsely labeled ADHD, while the shyer one that sits still is given more recognition for their intelligence), and partly because of my own educational experience.

Me: born on Dec. 6th, state law said you had to be 5 on or before Dec. 1st in order to start kindergarten each September. So, despite the fact that I aced the K entrance testing and was all ready beginning to read in the Spring, I was not allowed to start school that September because I was 5 days too young. This was supposedly in my best interest.

Well, when I did get to kindergarten I was WAY ahead of the rest of the class. Ended up sitting at a special desk behind the teacher's desk reading w/her & doing 1st grade level worksheets while the rest of the class learned their letters & simple addition. In 1st grade, they had me go to a 2nd grade class room for reading & math; and at the semester break just put me into 2nd grade for the rest of the year. Can you say ostracized? First graders didn't want anything to do with me, we'd never formed a bond because I wasn't really part of their peer group in K or the 1st half of 1st grade. 2nd graders didn't want anything to do with me because I was that goody-goody 1st grader that had been bumped up to be their equal. That fall I went on to 3rd grade.

Fourth grade, we moved about 90 miles away, no one in my new school district knew I was a year younger than most of my classmates. I was just a small kid for my grade. Was in gifted & talented through the end of 5th grade, when funding for that ran out and the schools quit offering it. Instead, I was put on the 'advanced' track for my classes. Didn't bother me, until I got to high school and found that alot of basic lifeskills type classes (shop, home ec, etc) were not available to me because I was on a college track! I was ranked 9th in a class of 330, so evidentally I was going to college, whether I wanted to or not!

I wanted to get married, be a stay at home mom, and operate a horse farm. (this was the late '80s, so it was like sacrilege to be a smart girl who's goal in life was to be a wife and mom, not a corporate climber!) No degrees in marriage, motherhood, or horse farms, so how did college figure into my goals and plans? Still, no matter how much I asserted my plans, goals and interests to the school counselor, there were only certain classes available to me in high school. So what if learning to cook, sew, balance a check book, and build things fit more with what my plans & goals were than how to speed read and other college-prep courses? I had to stay on the track assigned to me by my past academic performance.

Had two college classes my senior year through dual enrollment (nothing else left available to me at the high school in my 'track'). Never went back to college again.

Fast forward to today: one son graduated in 2007, because of his learning style & personality, school was an academic nightmare. Another son is like the school hero: he's a 4.0gpa sophomore and taking AP Calculus and is ahead of grade level in science too. This son sits still and completes homework. Son1 was fidgety and didn't like to write down things he felt he'd already proven he knew (same test scores, very different homework grades for these two boys). One daughter quiet and completes homework like son2, other daughter likes to do things with her hands like son1 and like son1 doesn't feel she needs to reprove what she's already proven she knows by doing homework on the same concept repetitively. Son1 is an F-18 mechanic in the Marine Corps (very active, work-with-your-hands career), son2 is looking at becoming some kind of engineer (lots of sitting at a computer type career), daughter1--the studious one--wants to become a christian school teacher, daughter2--the active one--wants to become a vet; lots of schooling, but then all hands-on career)

According to the school's track system, which children would be the college track ones? Which would be the vo-ed ones (the active dd, the future vet who needs 8 years of college would be put here)? If this is where their interests lie, fine. But if it is where they are put without any say by the parent or student and then have to remain in that track, that is WRONG!!

I do not, do not, do not like educational programs where some powers that be decide your future for you (or try to). IMHO, grouping kids like this ("college" and "laborer") leaves alot to be desired. All kids should have the same opportunities to the same classes; they shouldn't be labeled as too smart for a work-with-your-hands type of class, or not smart enough for a highly detailed class that is going to require some brain melting hours at home. If they are interested in learning the material, they will learn it. If they aren't, it doesn't matter what track they are on, they won't put out the effort to recieve a good grade.

[mnn2501]

Most high school kids are clueless as to what they want to do with their lives - so no. I certainly do not want 'the state' deciding what kids can and can not do.

On a side note; my nephew who was raised in Germany (His father owns a translation business there) a very bright kid was bored in HS and didn't get very good grades and didn't 'test well' was deemed not 'good enough' to follow the college path. He applied for and was selected to a college in England and is will graduate with honors this year.

[Ramblin Wreck]

When I went to high school (way back in the 70's), there were two tracks (vocational or college prep), but it was the student's/parent's choice as to which route you took. It seemed to work fine.

That being said, I do think that either track should include a good selection of math, English, and science classes (including computer science). The three "R's" are important for everyone, and in this new world, computers run not only space ships and CAAD programs, but also trucks and Caterpillars.

[Christine in OK]

I would like the availability of different classes, but I would NOT like it being based on testing and decided by 'the powers that be' at the school system.

I have a nephew who would have tested for college track if this was the case, but he flunked out of two colleges (not a lack of intelligence, just a lack of desire to be there) before enrolling in diesel mechanics at the local vo-tech center. Shame he didn't find this before graduation, it would have saved my sister some cash! He's graduated and is working, enjoying it very much. Pretty stable career too, in my thoughts!

[MaineFarmMom]

It works well at the high school here. Kids, parents and teachers work together to determine the best classes for the student. They aren't locked into one or the other. Taking college prep classes doesn't mean you can't take tech, taking tech doesn't mean you can't take college prep or AP.

[JJ Grandits]

I went to a vocational highschool. My major was Horticulture but they also had Printing, plumbing, Carpentry, Sheet metal working, Graphic arts and Heating/ air conditioning. At the same time you could also take your college prep courses. I thought it was a great system. Not everyone is college material and not everyone is tech capable. I learned this when I saw a man with a Phd who could not figure out how to start his lawn mower. Schools have been pushing that without a college education you are nothing and will never make any kind of a living. Tell that to a Master Plumber.

[Jennifer L.]

Originally Posted by Kris in MI

, until I got to high school and found that alot of basic lifeskills type classes (shop, home ec, etc) were not available to me because I was on a college track! I was ranked 9th in a class of 330, so evidentally I was going to college, whether I wanted to or not!

I wanted to get married, be a stay at home mom, and operate a horse farm. (this was the late '80s, so it was like sacrilege to be a smart girl who's goal in life was to be a wife and mom, not a corporate climber!) No degrees in marriage, motherhood, or horse farms, so how did college figure into my goals and plans? Still, no matter how much I asserted my plans, goals and interests to the school counselor, there were only certain classes available to me in high school. So what if learning to cook, sew, balance a check book, and build things fit more with what my plans & goals were than how to speed read and other college-prep courses? I had to stay on the track assigned to me by my past academic performance.

Had two college classes my senior year through dual enrollment (nothing else left available to me at the high school in my 'track'). Never went back to college again.

So you should have gone to an Ag college. Running a horse farm is a business as much as any other, and you would have learned a whole lot more about it besides balancing a checkbook. That's what the Land Grant colleges are there for, people like you!

ETA, didn't mean that to sound snarky. It's just that if you have the ability to do something, you shouldn't limit your options later in life by not getting as much education as you can.

Jennifer

[watcher]

I think they should have programs but the kids should be able to pick and choose. Several of my friends were good old farm boys who took 'shop' classes as well as advance math and science classes. One owns his own computer business and does metal working as a hobby. Both things he studied in HS.

[Riverdale]

Yet another example of Nanny Jenny.