American Heritage Girls vs. Girl Scouts

[Peacock]

I hope this doesn't raise flames; I debated putting it in GC but it's more of a family topic so it's here. I'd really like to discuss this in a safe place (for me!) because it's become pretty important here lately and stirs up a lot of heated emotion locally.

As you may know, I'm a big GS supporter. I was a GS for many years myself, DD has been in since Kindergarten, I've been a co-leader for 6 years. Next year I'll be the troop leader, I was recruiter last year and now am serving as the service unit registrar and webmaster. Whew!

I'd barely even heard of AHG till last fall when I started recruiting. But apparently it's a big snarky competition within our school system and certain others. Being Christian-based, AHG has honestly not been overtly mean; I respect the program and the ladies who run it, but that isn't preventing some of the people involved from being a bit "competitive" and judgmental.

AHG started in West Chester, Ohio - very near where we used to live - as a Christian mom's protest against Girl Scouts. She and some other families didn't like some GS policies. AHG attracts the very conservative, fundamentalist Christian families because it specifically supports girls' Christian development. It's national now -- I was told that there are AHG troops now in every continental state.

I posted about being invited for dinner by this family in my son's Cub Scout den. They're one of those homeschooling Christian families, which I do respect. My DH asked if their daughter would be going into GS next year, as she's just at that age. Her mom said no, she'd do AHG. Unaware of the big stink, DH innocently asked me why I'd recommend GS instead...and I just said I wasn't going to talk about it. It had too much potential to not be nice.

Here's my beef with AHG. It's exclusive, not diversified. AHG refer to themselves as "scouts." To me, a "scouting" program should be about widening girls' horizons about the world they live in, not sheltering them from cultures and beliefs that may "taint" their pure little Christian selves. GS is all about connecting with girls across the world -- black, white, red, purple, whatever, Jewish, Hindu, etc. GS has faith-based awards available but doesn't require them. GS teaches girls to be independent, strong and succeed in any area they choose - from engineering to homemaking. GS is flexible and open to interpretation. AHG, on the other hand, is about learning how to be a good Christian woman. Which is a very good goal, but I don't think it should be called "scouts" or have vests and badges like a "scouts" program.

I don't dislike AHG in itself. What I hate is the "alternative" comparison, that AHG is equivalent to GS, just another "flavor" of the same thing. I would see it more along the lines of 4H vs. Girl Scouts -- each valuable, but with a totally different focus.

Comments? Thanks!

[Bwana]

Yeah, I agree that they shouldn't try to copycat the GS. It's cool to do your own thing, just keep it unique imho. I give 'em credit for seeing a need and filling it.

Dave

[matt633]

I know I am going to get blasted here....but I am going to do my best to keep it nice and just tell you what I feel...being "one of those Christian homeschooling families".

From the perspective that I hear...you should be flattered. It imitates GS, b/c many people who go for AHG, do love scouting and the old GS ways. You must respect the fact that for those of us who don't agree w/ the homosexual lifestyle or who do agree w/ being submissive wives who stay at home w/ their kids....GS doesn't fit the bill these days. I AM NOT saying this is across the board, but my understanding is that GS supports homosexuals and the ones I know of teach a "girl power" attitude. NOW, I dont' care to support the homosexual movement anymore than they care to support their local Baptist church! This does not make me a bigot, I assure you...my SIL is a lesbian and I love her dearly...but I don't support her lifestyle or endorse it to my daughter. I also don't care for the "girl Power" attitude that our local GS pushes. I want my daughter to stand on her own two feet and be proud of her accomplishments, but I also want her to learn the ways of the women of old...and have a quiet and gentle spirit that pours forth from the Holy Spirit w/in her. This seems to be more the direction of AHG. I also have seen a leaning more towards homemaking skills, which is a deciding factor for some.

I am not protesting GS, I was a Girl Scout and have very fond memories of scouting. And, BTW, my DD isn't in either...she is involved in church, 4H, and homeschooling groups. And I make no generalizations....I am sharing what I have seen/heard/ or experienced and my opinion on it. Maybe you should look at it as simply an option instead of competition. Ya know like Burger King and McDonalds'...some like one, some like the other, and some like both......no big deal, they are both still in business. Freedom to choose is one of the things that makes this country so great!

Hope this helped...it wasn't meant to rile anyone.

Rachael

[Peacock]

Rachael, it isn't so much that we choose to see it as competition, but that they position themselves that way. I personally think that AHG and GS could complement each other rather than be at odds as either you are one or the other.

I do take issue with your statement that GS supports or endorses homosexuality -- I don't think you meant it quite as it seems here, but trust me, GS doesn't. But neither does it come out and say homosexuality is wrong. It's a non-issue. Sexuality of any kind, beyond healthy body issues, should not enter into a GS program, and therefore GS doesn't care about its members' lifestyles. The Boy Scouts are understandably worried about homosexuality and pedophilia, but it doesn't seem to be quite as much of an issue for paranoia and real concern among females. Thank goodness.

BTW...what's wrong with "girl power"???

[jen74145]

Originally Posted by edayna

I do take issue with your statement that GS supports or endorses homosexuality -- I don't think you meant it quite as it seems here, but trust me, GS doesn't. BTW...what's wrong with "girl power"???

Apparently you don't know the same GS I do... apart from being a kiddo in brownies/juniors, I worked summer camp for the Magic Empire Council. Yeah, uhm... ahem.

And the "girl power" thing was ridiculous. Little girls were repeatedly told by grown women who should know better, and I kid you not, what boiled down to girls being better than boys. Alot of the women I worked with had, shall we say, issues, and it wasn't pretty. To them, if you weren't or didn't want to be a man-hating career gal, you were wasting your life.

It's great to have two groups who do much the same thing, especially when they have different core beliefs... but I must say, no daughter of mine will ever be subjected to GS. I'd prefer she join Venturing at fourteen than get caught up in all that pitiful drama.

Your post seems to suggest you feel some derision towards Christians... ironic, isn't it?

[Peacock]

Originally Posted by jen74145

Apparently you don't know the same GS I do... apart from being a kiddo in brownies/juniors, I worked summer camp for the Magic Empire Council. Yeah, uhm... ahem.

And the "girl power" thing was ridiculous. Little girls were repeatedly told by grown women who should know better, and I kid you not, what boiled down to girls being better than boys. Alot of the women I worked with had, shall we say, issues, and it wasn't pretty. To them, if you weren't or didn't want to be a man-hating career gal, you were wasting your life.

It's great to have two groups who do much the same thing, especially when they have different core beliefs... but I must say, no daughter of mine will ever be subjected to GS. I'd prefer she join Venturing at fourteen than get caught up in all that pitiful drama.

Your post seems to suggest you feel some derision towards Christians... ironic, isn't it?

Derision toward Christians? I AM a Christian. Why would I feel derision?

The only derision I feel is toward those Christians who feel they must live on an insulated, sheltered island away from dangerous influences.

My experiences with GS are definitely not like yours. Our local GS are much more interested in developing well-rounded girls than egocentric man-bashers. I'd be running from that too!

Oh, and I have to add...Venturing! Cool! That is what used to be called Explorers, isn't it? Co-ed Boy Scouts? I used to do that too. High Adventure!

[jen74145]

Originally Posted by edayna

Derision toward Christians? I AM a Christian. Why would I feel derision?

The only derision I feel is toward those Christians who feel they must live on an insulated, sheltered island away from dangerous influences.

I didn't say YOU did, I said your post seemed to suggest it, which struck me as funny, since you seem to feel AHG feels derision towards you and your program. Perhaps a case of misundertanding between "you and them" a casual conversation migh clear up.

And, some Christians feel keeping their children away from dangerous influences is the only way to give them a healthy, strong foundation in their faith, rather than putting them in situations they don't have the Biblical knowledge and understanding to deal with yet.

[jen74145]

Originally Posted by edayna

Oh, and I have to add...Venturing! Cool! That is what used to be called Explorers, isn't it? Co-ed Boy Scouts? I used to do that too. High Adventure!

Explorers is still their own thing, I believe... Venturing is a BSA spinoff.

[matt633]

Originally Posted by edayna

Sexuality of any kind, beyond healthy body issues, should not enter into a GS program, and therefore GS doesn't care about its members' lifestyles. The Boy Scouts are understandably worried about homosexuality and pedophilia, but it doesn't seem to be quite as much of an issue for paranoia and real concern among females. Thank goodness.

BTW...what's wrong with "girl power"???

Well, if that is the case for you , then I am glad....but you need to do some checking on GS's partners. Why do you thing BSA is swimming in litigation and GSA isn't?? And I wouldn't say that men were the only ones capable of pedophilia OR homosexuality.

Oh, and as I said, "girl power" just isn't an attitude I desire for my daughter...we prefer to depend on "the power of the Holy Spirit". As I said earlier, she is being raised to have a gentle submissive spirit...the two don't exactly go together! Again...I think it is good to have a choice; I don't think anyone is competing.


Jen...what is Venturing?? We have looked into something from Keepers of the Faith for our DD10 and DS6. They have a program for girls and one for boys. It contains skills, character traits, Bible memory and more.... you can order your own badges, and I like it b/c it is flexible enough that you could do it w/ just your own kids, a church or homeschool group, or form your own small group. There is no national/regional headship, just a guide to do your own thing. JUst another "option".

Rachael

[matt633]

sorry, jen...I was posting at the same time.

And ditto on the keeping kids from dangerous influences. I am not sheltering my kids from the world, but preparing a firm foundation so that they may better succeed in it when they are old enough. Do you let your kids play in the street and tell them to watch for cars....or do you keep them out of the street??

Rachael

[MorrisonCorner]

So you've got my CV: girl scout from Brownies forward, earned every Junior badge offered, mother head of the state GS coucil for 6 years. Last involved in scouting 20 years ago.

I am following this with some interest, but I believe each person's experience with scouting will be colored by regional variations. My scout leaders, the most influential ones, were two women... on gay and one who was married and never had children, earning a PhD at the time. The "gay" was never an issue, never mentioned, in fact, I would suspect that anyone who was not my mother's daughter, and therefore overhearing adult conversations, would not have known. The other woman was hardly what I'd call a "woman power" type.... she was following quietly in the wake of her husband's career trying to keep herself busy when it became obvious she wasn't going to have children of her own. The women who were "powerful" were the ones recruited to teach us "stuff." I don't even remember her name beyond "Julie's mom," but "Julie's mom" was a stay at home mother with a flair for textile arts. She taught me to embroider and sew and in very subtle ways that keeping a home nice was something you did when you had time.... but there was a lot more to life than a clean living room. Another mother was a secret drunk who rose to occassions when she had to. Girl Scouting let me into a lot of lives and a lot of secrets. A peek behind the curtain where you got to see the clutter of other people's lives.

However, as you can imagine when the formative years of a bunch of girls are influenced by someone earning a PhD, all of us went on to college, some to additional degrees. Looking back those women, the leaders and the ones they recruited to teach us skills, probably had more influence over our little forming lives than they (or we) realized at the time.

Sooooo... I suppose if it were important to me that my daughter be influenced more by her religion than other elements in society I would either form my own troop with that emphasis to it, or opt out of GS.

[willow_girl]

As I said earlier, she is being raised to have a gentle submissive spirit...

OMG ... why would you want to handicap her that way?

Remember, someday your little lamb will have to venture out among the wolves ...

[Seeria]

Don't mistake submissive with being week or unable to protect oneself. Most my lady friends are "submissive" and two hold blackbelts, one is a hardcore advertising (wolf) agent. While some "submissive" type ladies might be unable or unwilling to defend themself physically, mentally, verbally, that certainly has not been the norm of submisisve woman I've met.

Submissive is not week, vulnerable, a mat to tread upon.

[Sherri C]

So is your complaint that they're using the term "scouts"? If so, then what do you think of the Spiral Scouts? They're a Pagan version of the Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts.

[LamiPub]

because....having a gentle submissive spirit in no way lacks an intelligent mind or the ability to use it. To understand a "gentle, submissive spirit" read Proverbs 31. The Proverbs woman in no way appears to be incapable of handling the wolves. It is about the attitude not ignorance, weakness or servitude.

As for the OP I see nothing wrong with a new club and parents should have the right to choose how to raise their children without judgement. I am sorry but I don't think you would appreciate me accusing you of raising your daughter to be a worldly, humanistic, gender confused woman. How would you feel if I told you that the way you are raising your daughter is just setting her up for heartache and failure when she gets out in the real world? My decision to "shelter" my daughter is my choice and responsibility. A parent is SUPPOSED to protect and shelter their child! In every other way if a parent doesn't they are accused of child abuse but it never ceases to amaze me how many people have the narrow minded audacity to assume they have the right to criticize and judge a "fundy", (gotta love those labels!) Christian, homeschooling parent.

[willow_girl]

Submissive is not week, vulnerable, a mat to tread upon.

Perhaps ours is a problem of semantics.

Submissive: inclined or ready to submit; unresistingly or humbly obedient: submissive servants.
1. tractable, compliant, pliant, amenable. 2. passive, resigned, patient, docile, tame, subdued.
inclined or willing to submit to orders or wishes of others or showing such inclination;
abjectly submissive; characteristic of a slave or servant;
characterized by tendencies to yield to the will or authority of others

(Gleaned from Dictionary.com)

I would argue that "confident" and "assertive" (which does not necessarily mean "arrogant" and "aggressive") are better traits to instill in our girls than "gentle" and "submissive."

[LamiPub]

A Christian takes the terms submissive and weak from a scriptural perspective...teh term submissive means to be under authority and a christan doesn't have a problem being under the authority and protection of Christ or their God appointed leaders. The terms quiet or meek denote a quiet confidence and assurance. An acceptance and trust in God. The word assertive could be taken different ways. Again read Proverbs 31. The woman had no problem being assertive (buying a field, caring for family and charity, running her household and business) she just did it in a quiet, confident, gentle, kind way. The difference again was her motivation-FAITH (not self serving egotistical goals) and TRUST (with trust comes confidence) and LOVE (love for her God, her husband and her family). Read the passage and show me where you have a problem with this woman.

[jen74145]

Because snarking at someone is always a wonderful way to introduce them to your way of thinking...

[MicheleMomof4]

Willow,
The problem is you view the word submissive from the world's definition and we use the Bible's definition. Submissive is not laying down and taking anything. It is like others said, we are gladly under the protection of our Father. Maybe that makes it clearer to you.
And you know me from here.....I wouldn't fall under your idea of submissive, LOL

Edayna,
I've seen this issue come up before in your posts. And I have to ask......why would it bother you how other people are raising their children? If I choose to protect my children, as I feel the Bible has told me to do, then why would that be any consequence to you? I am trying to understand why you would take exception to it as you stated.
You seem to have a distaste for those who homeschool for religious reasons and those who raise their children differently that you. I am left wondering why it is an issue for you at all?
God Bless,
Michele

[Grandmotherbear]

Exploring WAS a former coed Boy Scout program for ages 14-21 either high adventure or career based 9think police Explorers Post) It has been replaced by Venturing- basic tenets the same- new name.

I wish that organizations that compete with Scouts (Boy or girl)would differentiate themselves. Royal Rangers used to have an almost identical uniform to BSA...I think that may be part of the initial post...fine to offer a different program, please don't copycat your uniform.