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Paumon 12/17/14 09:22 PM
Cuba embargo ending
 
So what do you think about the thing with Cuba? Are you pleased to see the embargo may finally be ending and trade and other negotiations opening up between America and Cuba?

Given the opportunity, would you visit there?

myheaven 12/17/14 09:27 PM
when we sailed past Cuba in 2013 oh boy it was so beautiful. I would love to go hiking there.

Old Vet 12/17/14 09:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paumon (Post 7319310)
So what do you think about the thing with Cuba? Are you pleased to see the embargo may finally be ending and trade and other negotiations opening up between America and Cuba?

Given the opportunity, would you visit there?
Has Congress voted to end the embargo or is Obama running off at the mouth?

sisterpine 12/17/14 09:33 PM
Hmmm you know, I don't know if or fearless leader did it himself or if Congress was involved. Shame on me for not listening more closely! I don't think we should end the embargo because nothing has changed. The fact that their alleged leader is old and sick is no reason for our leaders to act like old sick folks too

Paumon 12/17/14 10:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Vet (Post 7319317)
Has Congress voted to end the embargo or is Obama running off at the mouth?
I guess you haven't heard the news about it today. Yes, the embargo will be ending.

For the past year Canada and the Pope have helped with secret meetings and negotiations going on between America and Cuba on neutral ground in Canada. Today Cuba and America have already started by exchanging prisoners. Cuba has exchanged American citizen Alan Gross for three Cubans jailed in the United States.

http://www.vox.com/2014/12/17/740895...francis-canada

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102277087

http://my.chicagotribune.com/#sectio.../p2p-82316033/

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/12...nship-sources/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-9931111.html

Paumon 12/17/14 10:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sisterpine (Post 7319322)
Hmmm you know, I don't know if or fearless leader did it himself or if Congress was involved. Shame on me for not listening more closely! I don't think we should end the embargo because nothing has changed. The fact that their alleged leader is old and sick is no reason for our leaders to act like old sick folks too
You could have listened closer and you would still not have heard anything about it because nothing was being said. All negotiations have been done in secret and today was the first time any news of it was released.

America is the only country of note that has had an embargo against Cuba and all the other countries in the United Nations have been calling for an end to the embargo for the past 25 years.

Cuba's leader is not old and sick. You are thinking of Fidel Castro (who is old and sick) but Fidel is no longer Cuba's leader and hasn't been for quite some time. His younger brother stepped up as leader and he has been making changes in Cuba.

unregistered353870 12/17/14 10:08 PM
The embargo is not ending yet. What Obama announced today was taking steps to normalize diplomatic relations and loosening a few minor restrictions, which is separate from lifting the embargo. Obama doesn't have the authority to do that and Congress probably won't do it for a few years.

I'm hoping to get back to Cuba before I die. I spent a good part of my first career there and nearby and loved it. Last time I visited was 1995 and I actually got to see a lot more of the country than when I lived there. I hope to be able to go back after the embargo is finally lifted. I suspect it won't be until both Fidel and Raul are dead, though...oddly enough, Raul was the more dedicated communist of the two way back when...I don't know where he stands today, but it just strikes me as funny that we were waiting for Fidel to die or step down. It would have made more sense to negotiate with him than with Raul, but not much about that whole thing makes sense.

MO_cows 12/18/14 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paumon (Post 7319343)
You could have listened closer and you would still not have heard anything about it because nothing was being said. All negotiations have been done in secret and today was the first time any news of it was released.

America is the only country of note that has had an embargo against Cuba and all the other countries in the United Nations have been calling for an end to the embargo for the past 25 years.

Cuba's leader is not old and sick. You are thinking of Fidel Castro (who is old and sick) but Fidel is no longer Cuba's leader and hasn't been for quite some time. His younger brother stepped up as leader and he has been making changes in Cuba.
The "younger" brother is still 80-something. He might be in better health than Fidel but "old" is still an accurate description.

I'm not impressed that the State Dept. and Congress were bypassed, doing all this in secret with none of the promised "transparency". But holding on to the cold war policy wasn't doing anybody any good, either. So, I'll be cautiously optimistic. The lifting of the embargo is a huge bargaining chip so they better not "give away the store" in any trade agreements! And hopefully the lives of the average Cuban will improve.

okiemom 12/18/14 12:09 PM
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. If we can get ambassadors in Cuba maybe we can get it so Russia can't get closer to us. the US is not the only one who can do closed door meetings.

Bret 12/18/14 12:17 PM
What if I learn that I really don't like Cuban cigars?

Sawmill Jim 12/18/14 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret (Post 7319824)
What if I learn that I really don't like Cuban cigars?
I have smoked a few nothing special as far as I can tell :sing: Anyone that thinks you can't get a Cuban cigar in the US never heard of the black market I guess . Cuban cigars are sold in Mexico then from there it is easy .:thumb:

Paumon 12/18/14 01:11 PM
Cuban cigars and their other trade products can be found in all countries except United States, Israel and Palau. Those are the only 3 countries that enforce America's embargo and don't openly trade or interact with Cuba.

greg273 12/18/14 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sisterpine (Post 7319322)
I don't think we should end the embargo because nothing has changed.
'Nothing has changed'... all the more reason to end the embargo. It is pointless. All we have done is cede business opportunities to other countries. If we can do business with the Chinese, we can do business with the Cubans.

MO_cows 12/18/14 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg273 (Post 7319894)
'Nothing has changed'... all the more reason to end the embargo. It is pointless. All we have done is cede business opportunities to other countries. If we can do business with the Chinese, we can do business with the Cubans.
No comparison between China and Cuba. China is important on the world stage, a huge population, land mass and natural resources. Cuba could sink to the bottom of the ocean tomorrow and not many would even notice it was gone.

Agree that keeping the status quo was just stubbornness, or inertia. It is time to take a different tack. But I don't have much faith in the govt. to make good agreements, this administration in particular. There better be something in it for us, too!

MoonRiver 12/18/14 01:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg273 (Post 7319894)
'Nothing has changed'... all the more reason to end the embargo. It is pointless. All we have done is cede business opportunities to other countries. If we can do business with the Chinese, we can do business with the Cubans.
Did you know that a foreign company doing business in Cuba doesn't pay Cuban employees, but rather pays all the money to the Cuban government?

no really 12/18/14 02:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paumon (Post 7319310)
So what do you think about the thing with Cuba? Are you pleased to see the embargo may finally be ending and trade and other negotiations opening up between America and Cuba?

Given the opportunity, would you visit there?
Let's see what do I think about it, not much. Trade is fine what little there will be. Just as long as the US taxpayers aren't stuck with sending aid money.

I have been there, would I visit for a vacation? No there are way to many places in this world to enjoy visiting.

BlackFeather 12/18/14 07:28 PM
People are generally selfish, greedy, and like nice things. If the people of Cuba, see nice cloths, Wealthy tourists, neat electronics, they will want those things for themselves. In the end applying pressure to their own government to open up more trade, which leads to new ideas, and people will want better lives. Look a China and the growing middle class. In the end that is what will bring more freedoms to Cuba. When you isolate, the people get defensive and have a siege mentality, as we are seeing in Russia with our government trying to isolate them. Putin is more popular in Russia than ever. Pressure for change comes from the people not from within the Cuban government. If the government wants to remain in control they are the ones who eventually need to change to suit the people else they eventually lose out. So eliminating sanctions is the way to do it.

nchobbyfarm 12/18/14 07:39 PM
In addition to reopening its embassy in Havana, the administration plans to significantly ease trade and financial restrictions, as well as limits on travel by Americans to Cuba, by using its regulatory and enforcement powers to evade limits imposed by a congressionally mandated embargo.

This is an exert from the link to the Chicago Tribune in Paumon's link above. Once again, Obama will not enforce a law and will proudly EVADE enforcement. And you guys approve of this abuse of power? I can't wait to hear you scream when the shoe is on the other foot!

MoonRiver 12/18/14 07:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFeather (Post 7320209)
People are generally selfish, greedy, and like nice things. If the people of Cuba, see nice cloths, Wealthy tourists, neat electronics, they will want those things for themselves. In the end applying pressure to their own government to open up more trade, which leads to new ideas, and people will want better lives. Look a China and the growing middle class. In the end that is what will bring more freedoms to Cuba. When you isolate, the people get defensive and have a siege mentality, as we are seeing in Russia with our government trying to isolate them. Putin is more popular in Russia than ever. Pressure for change comes from the people not from within the Cuban government. If the government wants to remain in control they are the ones who eventually need to change to suit the people else they eventually lose out. So eliminating sanctions is the way to do it.
I believe there are only 2 small countries along with US that embargo Cuba. The rest of the world trades with them now.

Annsni 12/18/14 08:43 PM
Cuba is a stunningly beautiful country and my 22 year old daughter went this summer with our missions pastor and some other young women and it was a trip that so touched her heart. She will be back there in July 2015 for two weeks. Many of the people are wonderful but massively poor. Honestly, they have had open trade with other countries and I don't think that the US ending the embargo will make much of a difference in their lives.

But pray for the local pastors and churches there. There are a lot of spiritual battles going on there!

Paumon 12/18/14 08:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFeather (Post 7320209)
People are generally selfish, greedy, and like nice things. If the people of Cuba, see nice cloths, Wealthy tourists, neat electronics, they will want those things for themselves. In the end applying pressure to their own government to open up more trade, which leads to new ideas, and people will want better lives. Look a China and the growing middle class. In the end that is what will bring more freedoms to Cuba. When you isolate, the people get defensive and have a siege mentality, as we are seeing in Russia with our government trying to isolate them. Putin is more popular in Russia than ever. Pressure for change comes from the people not from within the Cuban government. If the government wants to remain in control they are the ones who eventually need to change to suit the people else they eventually lose out. So eliminating sanctions is the way to do it.
I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with the sentiment of your post but I just want to point out that the people of Cuba have been seeing nice clothes, wealthy tourists and neat electronics like anyone else and nothing changed in that regard during the past 50 years. Most other countries in the rest of the world have been trading minimally with Cuba and wealthy tourists from other countries have never stopped visiting Cuba for vacations and bringing money into Cuba's hospitality industry. The tourism and hospitality industry is probably Cuba's biggest industry and it is going strong. Cuba has not been cut off from the rest of the world. It's really only America and to a degree Israel (which does whatever America tells it to do) that have cut themselves off from Cuba.

k9 12/18/14 08:47 PM
Really? With the Middle East in meltdown we are going to focus on Cuba?

Paumon 12/18/14 08:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annsni (Post 7320302)
Cuba is a stunningly beautiful country and my 22 year old daughter went this summer with our missions pastor and some other young women and it was a trip that so touched her heart. She will be back there in July 2015 for two weeks. Many of the people are wonderful but massively poor. Honestly, they have had open trade with other countries and I don't think that the US ending the embargo will make much of a difference in their lives.

But pray for the local pastors and churches there. There are a lot of spiritual battles going on there!
When you say many people are massively poor, do you mean they are living in deprivation, illness and starvation or do you mean they are poor by American standards? Because if you mean poor by American standards, well, everyone else everywhere in the world except America is poor by American standards.

Sawmill Jim 12/18/14 11:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackFeather (Post 7320209)
People are generally selfish, greedy, and like nice things. If the people of Cuba, see nice cloths, Wealthy tourists, neat electronics, they will want those things for themselves. In the end applying pressure to their own government to open up more trade, which leads to new ideas, and people will want better lives. Look a China and the growing middle class. In the end that is what will bring more freedoms to Cuba. When you isolate, the people get defensive and have a siege mentality, as we are seeing in Russia with our government trying to isolate them. Putin is more popular in Russia than ever. Pressure for change comes from the people not from within the Cuban government. If the government wants to remain in control they are the ones who eventually need to change to suit the people else they eventually lose out. So eliminating sanctions is the way to do it.
All that may come to pass should the people figure out a way to out gun Castro's army :thumb:

Annsni 12/19/14 07:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paumon (Post 7320307)
When you say many people are massively poor, do you mean they are living in deprivation, illness and starvation or do you mean they are poor by American standards? Because if you mean poor by American standards, well, everyone else everywhere in the world except America is poor by American standards.
Deprivation: Yes
Illness: Yes - and do not have good health care
Starvation: No but certainly not eating well balanced diets.

Darren 12/19/14 08:18 AM
To the extent it improves the life of the Cuban people it's a definite plus. Not planning on visiting. Russia seems to like the idea which is interesting given Russia's aggressiveness lately.

mmoetc 12/19/14 09:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annsni (Post 7320508)
Deprivation: Yes
Illness: Yes - and do not have good health care
Starvation: No but certainly not eating well balanced diets.
Deprived of what? Big screen tvs, smartphones, mindless entertainment, fast food, Cheetos. You know , all those things many here complain are ruining our society.

Illness? The same life expectancy as the US. Universal access to doctors and hospitals and embracing non traditional medicines and therapies.

Starvation? I'm not aware of widespread starvation in Cuba. Government rationing seems to be insufficient to meet all their needs but the populace seems to have found a way to cope. Lots of rice and bean, locally grown fruits and vegetables, and a smaller reliance on animal proteins. It would make my doctor happier if I followed their example.

notwyse 12/19/14 09:13 AM
They have more doctors per capita. They are more proactive than reactive with healthcare. The embargo has been a stupid pissing match. I will go soon.

Annsni 12/19/14 09:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoetc (Post 7320631)
Deprived of what? Big screen tvs, smartphones, mindless entertainment, fast food, Cheetos. You know , all those things many here complain are ruining our society.
Yes, they do not have any of these things but they also do not have access to medicines, new clothing (OK, well, they have access but can't afford it), shoes (we sent every spare pair of shoes we could find and asked friends to give us their extra shoes as well), regular electricity (makes it hard to store food so they don't bother with perishables), protein sources other than rice and beans and the water is less than clean (which is why we must filter AND treat it and there is still a good possibility of stomach issues when you are there. Oh and let's just say "safe transportation" is not a term that is applicable to Cuba. ;)

However, they have excellent access to education.

Quote:
Illness? The same life expectancy as the US. Universal access to doctors and hospitals and embracing non traditional medicines and therapies.
Which is why the locals beg for over the counter medications and certain prescription meds. We are currently saving up our albuterol for 3 friends of ours there who are allowed ONE albuterol inhaler a YEAR! They cannot get aspirin, Tylenol or Motrin either. We stock up on those through the year and bring them down when we go. Antibiotics are VERY much needed by the local people as well but we have not yet been able to bring them to them. Even if you look at the travel websites for Cuba, they recommend you bring all of your medical needs with you and then leave them because they do not have access to them. This is NOT good medicine.

Quote:
Starvation? I'm not aware of widespread starvation in Cuba. Government rationing seems to be insufficient to meet all their needs but the populace seems to have found a way to cope. Lots of rice and bean, locally grown fruits and vegetables, and a smaller reliance on animal proteins. It would make my doctor happier if I followed their example.
How do they find a way to cope? The black market. When my daughter was there, they were able to purchase eggs, which is extremely rare. They got 6 eggs for the whole group and were able to do this for 3 days and then there were no more available (someone said more than likely the family had to eat the chicken). Meat is pretty much non-existent but one year in the 12 years that we've been going (more than once a year so at least 24+ trips), the local village were able to get a pig and roasted it. It was such a rare feast that the village shut down to celebrate. Powdered milk is rare and very expensive so it is only given to children and the elderly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by notwyse (Post 7320640)
They have more doctors per capita. They are more proactive than reactive with healthcare. The embargo has been a stupid pissing match. I will go soon.
As I posted above, the "healthcare" that is available in Cuba is not what we would even consider minimal here in the US. When you cannot purchase bandaids to protect a wound that you received and you have to end up in the hospital before anything is done, that is a problem.

emdeengee 12/19/14 11:32 AM
IMO I think that this is definitely about time. The excuse that Cuba is communist is ridiculous. The US trades with all communist countries - China, Russia being the larges - not to mention horrible dictatorships and military juntas as does the rest of the world. To continue a embargo against Cuba for events of 50 years ago makes no sense. Russia was forgiven but Cuba -the pawn - was not? The country wants to advance and this is the first step. Under Raul it is moving forward. Better to have a friend on your southern border. Canada has had a working relationship with Cuba for 50 years. This is no different than a working relationship with China or Russia.

HDRider 12/19/14 11:38 AM
I guess this lets Fidel off the hook for his role in the JFK assassination.

k9 12/19/14 11:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDRider (Post 7320803)
I guess this lets Fidel off the hook for his role in the JFK assassination.

Well there was that whole Bay of Pigs thing.... was it Castro or the CIA? I can't remember.

Ozarks Tom 12/19/14 12:12 PM
With the fall of the Soviet Union Cuba's Russian "aid"choked down to a trickle, then Venezuela's Chavez took over propping up the Castros. Now, both Russia and Venezuela are cash strapped from the low oil prices, and obama decides to ride to the Castro's side.

With the exception of the prisoner swap, which could have been brokered without a change in diplomatic status, what exactly did the US get in the way of concessions to Cuba's horrible human rights policies? Answer: Nothing.

As long as the Castros are in charge the Cuban people will see no meaningful benefit from any changes in relations to the US. All a cessation in the embargo will mean is the Castro regime will be propped up a while longer.

MO_cows 12/19/14 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoetc (Post 7320631)
Deprived of what? Big screen tvs, smartphones, mindless entertainment, fast food, Cheetos. You know , all those things many here complain are ruining our society.

Illness? The same life expectancy as the US. Universal access to doctors and hospitals and embracing non traditional medicines and therapies.

Starvation? I'm not aware of widespread starvation in Cuba. Government rationing seems to be insufficient to meet all their needs but the populace seems to have found a way to cope. Lots of rice and bean, locally grown fruits and vegetables, and a smaller reliance on animal proteins. It would make my doctor happier if I followed their example.
And the fact they didn't have any freedom of choice in all this, but rather have had it forced upon them, doesn't matter to you???

Old Vet 12/19/14 03:04 PM
Every body knows that it will be a boom Cuban people. Every one of them will become rich and through out the Castro regime. Oh wait it is the government that gets the money never mind.

notwyse 12/19/14 05:21 PM
I did not say the healthcare was great....but certainly different. The reason there are so many doctors is because the education is free. Wish it was here. I want to go before we turn it into another Disney land. Before Fidel Havana was apparently like las Vegas. He turned it Topsy tervy. I want to get there while it is still a bit depressed. Me and a million others.

Annsni 12/19/14 07:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by notwyse (Post 7321119)
I did not say the healthcare was great....but certainly different. The reason there are so many doctors is because the education is free. Wish it was here. I want to go before we turn it into another Disney land. Before Fidel Havana was apparently like las Vegas. He turned it Topsy tervy. I want to get there while it is still a bit depressed. Me and a million others.
Here are a few things that you would see:

Housing in Havana. This is not a depressed area like a slum - it's just the regular kind of neighborhood. The thing hanging on the lawn there is the building's garbage bin.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...ps1ddf8051.jpg

But you would see absolute beauty too!

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...ps575ce4ce.jpg

I wanted to share some more pictures but I didn't feel comfortable because most of them include people and I want to be careful posting pictures of them.

mmoetc 12/20/14 06:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annsni (Post 7320671)
Yes, they do not have any of these things but they also do not have access to medicines, new clothing (OK, well, they have access but can't afford it), shoes (we sent every spare pair of shoes we could find and asked friends to give us their extra shoes as well), regular electricity (makes it hard to store food so they don't bother with perishables), protein sources other than rice and beans and the water is less than clean (which is why we must filter AND treat it and there is still a good possibility of stomach issues when you are there. Oh and let's just say "safe transportation" is not a term that is applicable to Cuba. ;)

However, they have excellent access to education.



Which is why the locals beg for over the counter medications and certain prescription meds. We are currently saving up our albuterol for 3 friends of ours there who are allowed ONE albuterol inhaler a YEAR! They cannot get aspirin, Tylenol or Motrin either. We stock up on those through the year and bring them down when we go. Antibiotics are VERY much needed by the local people as well but we have not yet been able to bring them to them. Even if you look at the travel websites for Cuba, they recommend you bring all of your medical needs with you and then leave them because they do not have access to them. This is NOT good medicine.



How do they find a way to cope? The black market. When my daughter was there, they were able to purchase eggs, which is extremely rare. They got 6 eggs for the whole group and were able to do this for 3 days and then there were no more available (someone said more than likely the family had to eat the chicken). Meat is pretty much non-existent but one year in the 12 years that we've been going (more than once a year so at least 24+ trips), the local village were able to get a pig and roasted it. It was such a rare feast that the village shut down to celebrate. Powdered milk is rare and very expensive so it is only given to children and the elderly.



As I posted above, the "healthcare" that is available in Cuba is not what we would even consider minimal here in the US. When you cannot purchase bandaids to protect a wound that you received and you have to end up in the hospital before anything is done, that is a problem.
First I'll commend you for your charity work in Cuba. Second I'll point out that many of the issues that exist there exist here also. It doesn't take much reesesrch to find stories of people rationing or forgoing medications because they can't afford them. Emergency rooms are still the primary care for many. Thousands line up for basic health screening, dental work and eyewear at charity health care events when they are held in various places around the country. Churches and other charities sponser clothing and food drives every week somewhere. Some of my fondest memories are of helping my father drop of boxes of food to families who otherwise wouldn't have had a turkey or ham at the holidays. I'll honor him later this week by surprising a neighbor who's had a tough year. The fact that our country can handle much of its charitable needs while helping those elsewhere also says much about us. It also says much that those charitable needs exist to the extent they do.

All that being said there is no place I'd rather live than here. I don't think Cuba is any kind of workers paradise. I do think its time for the embargo to be lifted. It serves no useful purpose that I can see.

mmoetc 12/20/14 06:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MO_cows (Post 7320913)
And the fact they didn't have any freedom of choice in all this, but rather have had it forced upon them, doesn't matter to you???
Actually they did choose this path. Or their parents and grandparents did. 60 years ago they fought and died for this choice. No outside power came in and overthrew a standing government to install their own. Did it turn out how all of them hoped? Probably not.

Ozarks Tom 12/20/14 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoetc (Post 7321576)
Actually they did choose this path. Or their parents and grandparents did. 60 years ago they fought and died for this choice. No outside power came in and overthrew a standing government to install their own. Did it turn out how all of them hoped? Probably not.
Castro's revolution succeeded through lies and misrepresentation. He even had some US assistance. Prior to taking power he didn't acknowledge his communist agenda, but used populist promises and propaganda to achieve his hidden long term goals. It was his double dealing and covert ties to the USSR that partially, through vengeance by the CIA, brought about the Bay of Pigs fiasco.


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