Responsibility and IVF
 

I just had a "seeing red" moment on another forum that has some spam problems. The normal spam is something that I just note, report, and move on, but this one got under my skin.

The spam was asking for donations so that the woman could have more expensive in-vitro fertilization attempts to create a child. I can understand the biological imperative to create a child, and the pressing desire that many people have, but if a couple cannot afford the costs to meet that desire how do they realistically plan to have the money to properly raise that child?

The idea of spamming for money to create a child who will likely require governmental assistance and charity, which either reduces the amount available to others or raises taxes, bugs me as completely self-centered and irresponsible. Am I over-reacting? Is this acceptable behavior?

I always heard it never hurts to ask even if it sounds far fetched or dumb to others :D I can always just shake my head and say no :runforhills:

Now on another note you could always offer your services in a non monetary fashion :angel:

Yeap! Sure is! This has become the normal. People like you and I are not the "odd balls"!
Sad but true!

Wade

I think you're over-reacting. Why? Because it's doubtful that the spammers would use the money (if they're successful in getting it from gullible fools) for IVF. They are simply using the idea of a baby as a tool to pluck at the heart strings of stupid people who think having a baby is the sole purpose for living and the only way to find fulfillment. If you have to be angry for any reason, be angry at the spammers for tricking stupid people into giving up their money, and be angry at the stupid gullible people for falling for such an old trick.

I think that odds are the story is made up. I would never send money to someone I do not know to a degree that I know their situation is true.

As for "if you cannot afford IVF, how do you expect being able to raise a child" ... I think that someone who cannot afford an IVF can still afford raising a child. I know someone who spent $100,000 on fertility treatments (fortunately they were successful). I think it is hardly fair to say that someone should have $100K in cash sitting around before they have a child. Now I think you should know that you can provide for your family if you bring children to this world, but you can do that by working and earning an income. We certainly did not have that much money on hand before we had kids but they are well provided for (they have a safe place to live, clothes to wear, proper nutrition and much much more but the rest of the stuff is not as important as the first three).

Doesn't IVF cost thousands per attempt? That could add up fast if there were multiple attempts, even with people who an afford to raise a child.

I'm thinking of Octomom.

Harry I'm with you! I wouldn't give a dime for somebody's IVF treatment, and there are much better causes for people to donate to if they have the money and the heart. It chaps my hide to see people spend those excessive amounts of money on extreme procedures to have "their own" child, when there are so many babies and children in foster care and up for adoption.

OTOH, I have seen people adopt older children out of foster care, and even infants, and have horrible experiences with the kids growing up to be mentally ill or addicted, just like their birth parents.

I can't really blame anyone for wanting to have their own biological baby, vs. taking a gamble on one coming from a family that is so dysfunctional that it chose (or was court-mandated) to give a child away to strangers. Sad but true. :(

No, there are not! 50 years ago that would have been true, but having tried to adopt in the past, there are usually waiting lists for any child excepting those who are over 13 *AND* who have serious problems, of the sort inexperienced parents would have trouble handling!

The last time I looked, it cost at least $30,000 to pay the fees to adopt a healthy baby. And that was 25 years ago!

We went through family services, which costs very little, but their children are rarely healthy. The kids are not healthy because they come from families that are not healthy, and some illnesses are inherited. Since I am an RN I figured that would not be a problem, but I can tell you, when I adopted 2 kids through them that the kid's health problems were a real challenge!

Even so, there is a waiting list for the kids that are adopted out through SRS. Potential parents have to show that they can deal with the kids health issues. One Mother -to- be had several deaf relatives, and she was approved to adopt a deaf child that she had already met. etc.

I don't blame them for wanting it, either. I blame them for refusing to accept the reality that they are not fertile.

Some of my family found out they both were sub-fertile when they tried to have a baby. They couldn't afford the IVF procedures, so they took the training to become foster parents. They were able to adopt one of their fosters, they had him since he was an infant. A happy family today. But even if they wouldn't have fallen in love with that child and adopted him, they made a difference for the better in the lives of other children. I consider that a lot more admirable than using up all those medical resources to meld their own egg and sperm.

But maybe they ARE fertile, with a little help from technology!

I know a couple who went the fertility-treatment route. Their first attempt resulted in a twin pregnancy and, sadly, a late-term miscarriage. They tried again, and this time had a healthy, beautiful set of twins, and girl and a boy. Cutest kids you ever saw!

The year the twins started kindergarten, the lady conceived naturally at age 40, which, needless to say, came as a total surprise! So now they have a younger son as well. :)

I'll add that I have great respect and admiration for people who take in foster and/or handicapped children, but not everyone is cut out for that sort of challenge, and I don't think they should be faulted for it.

I'm guessing they didn't solicit money from others for the procedurez? If they have that good of insurance, or can afford it, fine. The OP was about a couple trying to get other people to pay for theirs.

Yep, every one is different. When they lost the late term twins, a lot of people wouldn't have had the heart to try again.

A lot of foster parents are angels in disguise. They provide a calm, safe, stable environment for kids whose lives have gone out of control. No, not everyone can do it, but the ones who can are amazing.

As long as they're asking for voluntary contributions, not expecting the government to pay for it, I have no problem with it.

There are entire sites devoted to "crowdfunding" which hook up people in need with benefactors.

If it makes someone feel good to give to a cause like that, who am I to tell them what they should do with their money? :shrug:

I agree with Willow_girl on this one! It may be unusual, but it is not illegal, or unethical. It is like the change jars that businesses put on counters that say "injured uninsured volunteer fire fighter", or whatever.

People give because it pleases them to do so and because they want to, and in order to back the people around them. And, as more friendships develop between people who meet on-line, I expect to see more crowdfunding. More and more people have a large chunk of their social lives on-line

My kid brother responded to a crowdfunded ad, and he was very pleased. He told me about the young man he sent money too, and how regrettably his business had not worked out, and how the gent had sent his some packets of heirloom seeds in a cloth bag as a way of saying "thank you". DB gave me a packet of the heirloom eggplant seeds, as he does not like eggplants and I sometimes do.

I thought that crowdfunding was tacky, at first, but people are having fun with this, and can make contact with like-minded people this way.

I one gave a textbook on farming to a young woman who was just starting out, because I wanted too, and this is no different.

Do you blame someone with a congenital disease for seeking treatment rather than just accepting a shorter life or disability as just a reality? Infertility is no different than anything else that can be treated by modern medicine.

It's a fine line between what people really "want" to do with their money, and what they are manipulated into giving. The old tug at the heartstrings...which loosens up the purse strings.

They are, in essence, begging for the money for the IVF procedure. It's the electronic version of standing on the street corner with a sign, is it not?

Yes, infertility is different than a disease or condition. It doesn't threaten your life.

Neither does astigmatism, but I wear glasses!

It might. If you consider that depression and other stressors can shorten life spans this study might interest you.http://news.yahoo.com/no-kids-men-mo...dxMQR2dGlkAw--

Me too. Did you hold a fundraiser to get your glasses?

I also know people whose kids put them under so much stress, it has to be negatively affecting their health. Works both ways.

http://m.theatlantic.com/business/ar...er-all/361894/. Studies like these show a net positive affect of having children. We can all cite people we know on both ends of the spectrum but that doesn't answer why infertility is different than other physical disorders.

We circle back around to, infertility doesn't definitively shorten or threaten one's life like cancer, MS, kidney failure, whatever.

Any of you who think it's such a great idea, get the link from Harry and go give them some money. It's your money, your choice. Me, I'll stick to the causes that I feel are worthy. And, reserve the right to hold the opinion that it's inappropriate for them to solicit from strangers on the internet for fertility treatments.

If the people asking for money were asking to raise $$ to fund adoption fees vs. fertility treatments, would you feel any differently? Or would you say "if you cannot afford adoption fees, you cannot afford children"?

Probably, unless there were extraordinary circumstances like someone just finished college, was married, and had every reason to think that a good job was on the horizon. I view the responsibility that strongly. However, while I wouldn't see it as appropriate I don't think I would see it as such a strong split with reality.

People do fall on hard times, and a hand up can be a great help. When people set about to MAKE hard times or situations that will create them, and then ask for others to fund them, that rubs me the wrong way.

I do think though that as some have said, this may simply have been another "hook" for a spammer trying to get money.

I'm not seeing the connection....why do you assume this kid will require gov't assistance? Because the parents are asking for voluntary donations from people willing to donate to their cause?

I just don't get it....people badmouth those on gov't assistance, and say the community should support those in need instead. Here is someone doing that exact same thing, and you don't like that either.

YOU may not think it's ok to ask for assistance for fertility treatments, but it's not your decision.

Yes it is! Very few other things would lead to a society that could no longer reproduce.

My decision was to report it as spam (which it was, and against the TOS of that forum). Why do you assume I am assuming? :D I suspect that if it was not just a "poor me" story to scam, that the couple involved were short on cash and would continue to be so during the marriage.

I have nothing against being short of cash. I am so myself compared to many. I temper my expectations to meet my means and hope that others do something similar. I do see where you are coming from that the couple were exploring voluntary donations and not demanding aid from some agency. I still don't see that as prudent thinking as much as being driven by a desire so much as to not think clearly. Does that clear it up?

I would bet if the IP was checked it was probably in India. Bangladesh. Sweden. Los Angeles. One of the. Those are the most often countries of spammerd

Because a parent might have fertility issues does not neccessarily mean that their offspring will have the same issues. The problems may have been caused by disease or accident that are not genetically based. Some of the treatments might even use genetic material from another person negating even that concern.

Would it suit your sensibilities if they got a diagnosis from a licensed professional stating that having a child would alleviate their depression?

I have little doubt that this incident might be a scam not worthy of my time. But that has little to do with the morality of someone asking friends, relatives , neighbors or the general public for help. I donated and helped at a fundraiser for a local couple to raise money to allow them to travel to SE Asia to facilitate the adoption of a couple of sweet little girls. This is travel they could not have afforded on their own. I've since watched this family grow and prosper and contribute more back to our community than they ever received. Were they to have come and asked for the same help for fertility treatments I would just as gladly have helped and I don't doubt the results would have been the same

No, if a licensed professional diagnosed that a child would cure someone's depression I would consider them a quack.

Thank you for your generosity with your acquaintances. Knowing the people and deciding to help them is one thing. The OP was about soliciting from strangers on the internet.

This may have been a scam since it was posted on a forum, but I see people asking for donations ALL the time for families who have a sick child, or because a family needs help with medical bills after the passing of a loved one, etc. Are those wrong too? People can always ask for money, and it's up to us to decide whether or not we want to donate.

No, but neither did I consider it my duty to accept my helpless fate. I see no reason NOT to change what I was born with, as I am not that helpless!

If I could NOT have afforded glasses, I would have been ashamed to hold a crowdfunder, but I would have done so rather than not be able to see more than a few feet away, and never be able to work at most jobs because I could not see well enough.

Mother nature can throw some ugly curve balls. I entered the health field to help fix'em. And, I expect that when you are suffering from something, you are as quick to see your doctor as I am!

Actually, it does.

Harry, you can make the exact statement about EVERYBODY who wants kids. We no longer need our kids to support us in our old age. Children RARELY repay the investment we have in them! They are a LOT of work, and a sick toddler means that parents often stay up all night and then all day the next day. And, supporting a family is far harder than supporting one.

"A desire so much as to not think clearly" When I was trying to have kids I was not thinking clearly, I knew it, and I did NOT care! I was intent on having children.

"A desire so much as to not think clearly". BTDT, and it makes me smile, remembering.

It's good that you are so knowledgable about all thing to override the diagnosis.

The OP was about a possible scam but many of the subsequent comments have been about the supposed inappropriateness of IFV in any form. This is what I'm addressing.

Eggs/egg salad, what's the difference?

Or was it potato salad? I can't remember. Either way he made a ton, $50,000 or so? :hammer:

You could have gone to the local chapter of The Lion's Club. They have a nationwide collection and distribution program for eyeglasses and hearing aides.

LOL! I understand. Wasn't trying to get into existential conundrums and core biological urges, but they do come up surprisingly often when you start dissecting things. I suppose if we were all super-rational we would think ourselves out of existence.