Responsibility and IVF

Well, yes, but where's the harm in it, providing the beggar isn't overly aggressive or menacing?

People in need hooking up with people who wish to give ... it's all good, AFAIC.

__________________
"I love all of this mud," said no one, ever.

Override the diagnosis? Nope, it doesn't take a psychology degree to realize that a responsible, competent mental health professional would never counsel a patient that having their own biological child is the only cure for their depression! It would be their job to help the patient try to be healthy mentally/emotionally, no matter what the eventual outcome of their infertility.

I haven't seen anybody comment that IVF itself is not appropriate. What I said was, IF the couple can afford it, or IF they have superduper insurance to pay for it, fine. The inappropriate part was soliciting strangers online for the money to do it, especially using a forum where they violated its terms by doing so. Because I think it's inappropriate, I wouldn't give them any money. But if somebody else wants to - that's their money, their business.

Beyond that, yes, I do hold the opinion that moving mountains to artificially put sperm and egg together, even using a surrogate womb if necessary, is somewhat selfish. When you consider all the babies and children who need adopting, foster care, mentoring, donations, etc. I have a lot more respect for people who channel their desire for children into the "greater good" by helping other children, versus creating a million dollar test tube marvel baby just to duplicate their own genes. But that's just a personal opinion, I'm not advocating to prevent IVF.

__________________
It is still best to be honest and truthful; to make the most of what we have; to be happy with the simple pleasures and to be cheerful and have courage when things go wrong.
Laura Ingalls Wilder

Pretty much!

And that biological urge is what I am seeing on the crowdfunding thing. It is not rational but it is how humans often are.

I bet if you "could not afford" glasses, you would FIND a way to afford them before you solicited strangers for the money. Sell something, cut the budget somewhere else? You have always come across to me as responsible. But even if you had to fundraise or use a charity, yes of course you NEED glasses. To be able to earn a living, and for your own protection against being injured by something you didn't see. Not the same thing as optional IVF procedures.

Quick to see the Dr? No, that's not me! I have to be dragged kicking and screaming to the Dr every few years. I hate it. All those snotty children in the waiting room spreading their germs around, the old folks with the grey complexions, it's both scary and depressing! Then, at least a half hour after my appointment time has come and gone, finally see the Doc. Instead of, congratulations on not getting sick or hurt for the past X years, I get a lecture. So, no thanks!!

__________________
It is still best to be honest and truthful; to make the most of what we have; to be happy with the simple pleasures and to be cheerful and have courage when things go wrong.
Laura Ingalls Wilder

Glasses have a fairly high priority for me. If I could not afford them, then I would not have anything worth selling.

As for getting a job, most employers will not hire someone who cannot do their job. And, I have never been taught how to be blind. So I might not be able to do anything other that either ask the government for help or crowdfund. Personally I see no difference.

I think you are still underestimating the drive of many human females to have babies, by the way. Some women literally risk their lives to have kids. My own desire for kids was pretty strong, though not as strong as some.

I could NEVER have been a foster parent, because some of those kids are put back into conditions that are not safe. So, the foster parents get an abused 6 year old, have them long enough to love them, and then see them go BACK into danger? I don't THINK so: it would have killed me to participate in that! Laws in many areas have changed to put the safety of the child first but it was not always that way!

Foster parents do NOT get enough respect!

The actual "harm" in the case posted was violating the rules of the forum.

But yes, most places, most cases, begging isn't a crime. Just not admirable, IMHO.

I'm just one who would rather help the people I actually know (or at least know of), or good organizations like St. Judes. Then I know I'm not being scammed, I truly believe in what I gave for, and I feel good about where my money went. Some people are more "free spirited", and they can do what they like with their money.

__________________
It is still best to be honest and truthful; to make the most of what we have; to be happy with the simple pleasures and to be cheerful and have courage when things go wrong.
Laura Ingalls Wilder

But might that competent mental health professional counsel someone to ignore the naysayers and critics of IVF and do what person feels is right for them in regards to bringing a child into their life? It might not be the child that results that lessens the depression but the ridding oneself of negative people and negative energy. It's advice that works for a lot of people in a lot of situations.

If you haven't seen that IVF is seen by some here as inappropriate you might wish to go back and reread post #8. I won't disagree that asking for donations on a forum where such behavior is prohibited is inapropriate.

Now I'll ask why doing whatever is possible to have a child of one's own genetic makeup is any more selfish than the couple who has no fertility issues having a child? Or two, or three or a dozen? Aren't there just as many kids out there who would benefit from them adopting rather than bringing another child into the world just to duplicate their genes? It could be argued that once you've done it once it's even more self centered to do it again rather than adopting.

The focus of this thread was IVF not naturally conceived children.

__________________
It is still best to be honest and truthful; to make the most of what we have; to be happy with the simple pleasures and to be cheerful and have courage when things go wrong.
Laura Ingalls Wilder

Not a twist. Just showing how blanket statements might be wrong. Would not that advice from a mental health professional possibly be helpful and appropriate?

I never said you'd advocate banning it. I did point out that you seem to think it inappropriate in most instances.

I simply asked why one instance was selfish and another wasn't. If be interested in your answer.

It seems selfish to me in a couple ways. One, IVF takes up a lot of medical resources. People make a lot of money at it, so they are enticed to practice fertility medicine for the benefit of a few, versus other fields which would benefit more of the population. Who's to say the Dr. who has made millions getting rich people pregnant, couldn't have been the one to find a solution to Down's Syndrome had he not followed the big bucks? Two, shunning the needs of children who have already been born, or are about to be born unwanted, in favor of replicating their own genes at ANY cost. That seems elitist.

I know people who have adopted children themselves, others where adoption was part of their lives in some way, and those stories all have happy endings. Unlike the couple who breaks up and has a prolonged legal battle over their eggs in storage, surrogate mother arrangements gone bad, using the "wrong" sperm, a sperm donor father who ended up paying child support, the octomom, and other disasters resulting from artificial reproduction gone bad that have made the news.

Again, it's legal and should stay that way. It's just that me, myself and I, personally, don't hold a high opinion of it. It's both flattering and odd that you seem to care so much about that!

__________________
It is still best to be honest and truthful; to make the most of what we have; to be happy with the simple pleasures and to be cheerful and have courage when things go wrong.
Laura Ingalls Wilder

Already existing children are being medially shunned? IVF takes precedence over unwanted kids?

Just.... no. Not hardly.

IVF is usually a last-ditch effort for folks who want a little mini-me..nothing wrong with that in my book. Adoption is great as well. I have relatives who have done it all..Really, to each their own. Do they love their kids no matter what? Yep.

Infertility is pretty painful to go through, I know, but to dismiss IVF as elitist, I just don't see it as anything taken lightly and without a great deal of thought.

Don't flatter yourself too much. I have fun dealing with faulty logic. First, someone entering the medical field to make maximum money isn't likely to be the person who suddenly goes into research, a relatively lower paying field. Second, who's to say the daily work that that well paid doctor is doing might not lead to insights and breakthroughs you speak of. And third, who's to say the child resulting from that fertility treatment won't grow up to be the next Einstein, Salk, Curie, Bach, Glass, Mendelssohn, Picasso, Rembrandt, Cassat or Jane Jones? When compare to health care spending as a whole, the amount spent on fertility treatments is a drop in the bucket. A "regular" pregnancy can be quite expensive and require quite a few specialized medical resources. I'll ask again, why is a pregnancy like that, especially for a second, third or fourth genetic copy any less selfish than a couple seeking treatment to make just one?

Your experience has been vastly different than mine. It's been my observation that adoption largely turns out to be heartbreaking. One of my friends is now having her heart broken all over again by the children of her adopted daughter, who are in their turn having babies outside of wedlock and going to prison. My friend and her husband are some of the finest people imaginable. They raised their daughter from infancy. She was one of the proverbial, highly-sought-after "healthy white infants." Things still went horribly awry. Their younger daughter (also adopted in infancy) is bipolar and became so violent toward them in adulthood that they had to take out a restraining order against her and had no contact with her for years.

My stepsiblings and first husband and all of his siblings were adopted, too. I'll spare you those stories except to say they aren't pretty, either. Mental illness and addiction seem to run along genetic lines.

__________________
"I love all of this mud," said no one, ever.

In other words, you enjoy dragging people thru knotholes? Well, your fun's over with me. My personal opinion doesn't affect anyone else, it's mine and mine alone. And I'm keeping it until something in my life experience changes it. Don't agree with me, that's fine. I can respect that. So let's just agree to disagree.

__________________
It is still best to be honest and truthful; to make the most of what we have; to be happy with the simple pleasures and to be cheerful and have courage when things go wrong.
Laura Ingalls Wilder

I'm sorry. I have heard plenty of those horror stories, but everyone I know of personally was spared that. Simple as luck of the draw? We'll probably never know.

Ironically, the kids "raised right but gone bad" that I know, were all "natural" children.

Agree that mental illness and tendency toward alcohol/drug dependence seem to be heritable. Not 100%, but the pattern is definitely there.

__________________
It is still best to be honest and truthful; to make the most of what we have; to be happy with the simple pleasures and to be cheerful and have courage when things go wrong.
Laura Ingalls Wilder

Yup. My friends who had all the trouble with their girls also adopted a son who turned out just fine. One never knows. And, of course, one's biological children can turn out badly as well! But I can't blame anyone for not wanting to roll the genetic dice with someone else's child.

The mere fact that a child is being placed for adoption with strangers -- and not within its birth family -- may be a clue as to the level of dysfunction present.

__________________
"I love all of this mud," said no one, ever.

And I enjoy being dragged through knotholes by others. It's, in part, how I validate my opinions and see if my logic holds up. Sometimes it's even been part of that life experience that's led me to change an opinion. As grandpa used to say- I've never learned anything new listening to myself talk.

Re: asking donations for IVP (assuming a legitimate request and not spam), the urge to reproduce is as powerful as any in nature. No logic or appeal can override the biological imperative with any reliability. I believe the cost for IVP begins in the low 5 figures for a single attempt. For the majority of people in this country (USA I'm speaking for) living either paycheck-to-paycheck, or with no more than a few months' expenses in liquid savings, that's a tremendous amount of money, and I can see how someone could have trouble with the medical end despite having a decent job and bills paid on time.

__________________
I'm just standing up for my rights as a consumer.