The People+Snowden vs. The Intelligence Community ?

[poppy]

Originally Posted by greg273

Yeah, thats kind of why I am wondering why Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz aren't in jail.
As far as Snowden, what programs has he revealed that were unauthorized by Congress? Seems that many of the powers granted to our intel services were considered just fine 8 years ago, what happened? Oh, yeah, a Dem got in the white house. Well at least he has your attention now. Bout time.

If you could stop focusing on Bush for 5 minutes and think, maybe you would get the whole point. Actually this started before Bush, Bush increased it after 911, and Obama increased it even more. The whole point is no one knew the extent of spying and data collection except some conspiracy theorists (who were called crazy). Snowden revealed it and I believe people had a right to know. Congress, past and present, is also responsible. They have long given carte blanch to intelligence groups, especially after 911 but it is their duty to oversee these programs. Now that it is out in the open, they are holding hearings to find details of what is going on but the administration is stalling giving them some information and others are lying to them. Is this the kind of government we want?

[poppy]

Originally Posted by homstdr74

Sorry, not buying it. Been there, done that. Lived through the sixties. Here's something to keep in mind:



"Won't Get Fooled Again"

We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

The change, it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that's all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they are flown in the next war

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
No, no!

I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
Though I know that the hypnotized never lie
Do ya?

There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Are now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

(Pete Townshend of "The Who"---1971)


If and when those type of people (Snowden, Assange, etc.) overthrew the government and established one of their own, why do you think what they have in mind is any better? Think about it.

Years ago the Chinese government would, every so often, put up a bulletin board with this message: "We are experimenting with Democracy. You may post anything you wish critical of the State. Please leave your name, phone number, and address". Of course the internet isn't like that, is it, eh?

Wonder what happened to those "champions of democracy" in China?

Huh? Has Snowden championed overthrowing the government? Is expecting the government to respect our constitutional rights seeking to overthrow it? If so, voting for libertarians against the excessive snooping would also be trying to overthrow the government. You have a weird view if things IMO.

[haypoint]

This adds some historical perspective to it:
http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?locati...2992&regi_id=0

[chickenista]

Originally Posted by wy_white_wolf

Forbes listed him as 58th richest in 2013 and nowhere nere 70B

http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/list/

But that was the money that Putin admitted to having.
If you look at the links they explain why he was fudging his numbers and why the actual number is much, much higher.

[mmoetc]

Originally Posted by wy_white_wolf

Forbes listed him as 58th richest in 2013 and nowhere nere 70B

http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/list/

Let's take at face value that he is only the 58th richest. Still quite an accomplishment for a former KGB officer who has only held a variety of public service jobs. The Russian government must pay much better than ours.

[homstdr74]

Originally Posted by poppy

Huh? Has Snowden championed overthrowing the government? Is expecting the government to respect our constitutional rights seeking to overthrow it? If so, voting for libertarians against the excessive snooping would also be trying to overthrow the government. You have a weird view of things IMO.

Thank you for the compliment. If there is anything I dislike it is thinking within narrow confines and not thinking about developing plots "outside the box". Look, I’m only pointing out that you could be blindly accepting what one set of political egotists is saying about the other set of political egotists. In the world of intrigue, which is what you have when you come close to the intelligence community, nothing is ever as it appears to be to the average person.

[haypoint]

http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?locati...2992&regi_id=0
Way before we had the word "whistleblower" a group of political activists risked everything to break into an FBI office and steal thousands of pages of documents. They send documents to the newspapers. Only now are they stepping forward.
I am against stealing national secrets and selling or giving them to other countries. But exposing government wrongdoing against the citizens is hero's work.
If you are going to discuss Snowden, you deserve to know a bit of recent history to gain some perspective.