The People+Snowden vs. The Intelligence Community ?

[7thswan]

Originally Posted by plowjockey

Why is that?

Hopefully not how well, he runs the Russian economy.

Putin admits Russia's economic woes home-grown



http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...9BB08F20131212

It's best to know your Enemy. We do not know who Obama is. Our entire Government is covering up who he is. That makes hundreds of people we cannot trust. I don't know much about Putin, but it seems atleast he isn't hideing who he is, so that he can be delt with. Scary, Putin knows who Obama is, Russia detained him when he was a Senator, he had visited there. Putin seems to be nice enough to keep it quiet-maybe he is saveing the info. for a "special" purpose later.

[homstdr74]

Snowden=Benedict Arnold.

How many of our operatives have been compromised or killed because of that Bozo? His bedmate Assange should hang beside him. They've already received much more than the fifteen minutes of fame for which they were looking. Spoiled brats, the both of them.

[greg273]

Originally Posted by poppy

Much of the right wing was opposed to this stuff from the start because most of them also have Libertarian leanings.

Lol! The rightwing was all for it! Remember Ashcroft telling us that those who opposed this were 'scaring peace loving Americans with phantoms of lost liberty'??? You can't revise history poppy, as much as you try.

[fordy]

Originally Posted by homstdr74

Snowden=Benedict Arnold.

How many of our operatives have been compromised or killed because of that Bozo? His bedmate Assange should hang beside him. They've already received much more than the fifteen minutes of fame for which they were looking. Spoiled brats, the both of them.

...............How many soldiers lost their lives in Iraq because Bush predicated his decision to invade Iraq on LIES ? Had there 'Been' a Snowden to reveal factual information and had it been published on a national basis , Before we invaded Iraq , the war may have been averted !
................The Intelligence Community is A MOST accomplished LIAR when it comes to providing false rationale(s) for the CIA to carryout it's various secret missions as well as providing cover for the executive to INvade foreign nations that they don't want to explain to the voting public .
.................The NSA is a member of the MENSA LIAR's CLUB and prior to Mr. Snowden's revelations was very happy to LIE to Congress as often as necessary to remain UNaccountable for their UNConstitutional activities .
..................Mr. Snowden should be given the Highest award possible for revealing the Illegal activities of the NSA and Mr. Obama should be burned in Effigy for his endorsing the NSA as he is_A_ Co Conspirator for enabling their ongoing illegal activities . , fordy

[7thswan]

Originally Posted by homstdr74

Snowden=Benedict Arnold.

How many of our operatives have been compromised or killed because of that Bozo? His bedmate Assange should hang beside him. They've already received much more than the fifteen minutes of fame for which they were looking. Spoiled brats, the both of them.

None that we know of. Snowdens only crime is he let it out of the bag that Obama and congress have been lieing to us about tapeing us. Just recently,they even refuse to awnser if Reps. are being spyed on.


"Has the NSA spied, or is the NSA currently spying, on members of Congress or other elected officials?"
That's the question Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) put to the National Security Agency's chief in a bluntly worded letter Friday. It seems, however, that the agency cannot categorically say no. Sanders didn't use the word "spy" lightly. He was careful to define his terms, indicating he meant the collection of phone records from personal as well as official telephones, "content from Web sites visited or e-mails sent," and data that companies collect but don't release to the public.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...

[homstdr74]

Originally Posted by fordy

...............
................The Intelligence Community is A MOST accomplished LIAR when it comes to providing false rationale(s) for the CIA to carryout it's various secret missions as well as providing cover for the executive to INvade foreign nations that they don't want to explain to the voting public .
.................The NSA is a member of the MENSA LIAR's CLUB and prior to Mr. Snowden's revelations was very happy to LIE to Congress as often as necessary to remain UNaccountable for their UNConstitutional activities .
. , fordy

So, you admit that our Intelligence agencies have enough intelligence to lie; of course they do, we wouldn't want "the truth" plastered all over the NYTimes. However, since you admit they are intelligent enough to lie (BTW: They cannot tell "the truth" to "The Media" without also telling the enemy), have you never heard of dumping disinformation and old stuff on the guy who's the spy?

Originally Posted by 7thswan

None that we know of. Snowdens only crime is he let it out of the bag that Obama and congress have been lieing to us ...

Again, why would our Intelligence agencies tell the media that our agents have been compromised or killed? They have families, you know. So, of course they lie. Good for them.

[fordy]

Originally Posted by homstdr74

So, you admit that our Intelligence agencies have enough intelligence to lie; of course they do, we wouldn't want "the truth" plastered all over the NYTimes. However, since you admit they are intelligent enough to lie (BTW: They cannot tell "the truth" to "The Media" without also telling the enemy), have you never heard of dumping disinformation and old stuff on the guy who's the spy?



Again, why would our Intelligence agencies tell the media that our agents have been compromised or killed? They have families, you know. So, of course they lie. Good for them.

................NO ONE expects the CIA or the NSA to be forced to spill it's guts out to the Press about Valid Programs that it is legally authorized to conduct and ARE Constitutional , and fall within the purview of it's mandate from Congress and the Executive ! ALL elected members of Congress as members of the various Congressional Sub committee's have a responsibility to Review and receive testimony and written documentation about all activities for the CIA , NSA , etal . THE NSA has LIED to the Congress well as the American public and is Less than forth coming with just about anyone with the authority to investigate their activities . NO Intelligence Agency is above the Law regardless of it's administraters , THink .
.................Your post sounds as if Mr. Snowden has been revealing\exposing\publishing the specific names of specific operatives employeed by the NSA , my understanding is , he has not nor does he intend to ever reveal such information . Should he do so , or compromise the safety of any spook then , He should be imprisioned for a very long time . , fordy

[greg273]

Originally Posted by 7thswan

None that we know of. Snowdens only crime is he let it out of the bag that Obama and congress have been lieing to us about tapeing us.

When do you think this 'tapeing' began? And who authorized it?

[poppy]

Originally Posted by greg273

When do you think this 'tapeing' began? And who authorized it?

To quote one of your idols, "What does it matter at this point?". The question is, why does Obama continue to support it now that it is out in the open?

[poppy]

Originally Posted by greg273

Lol! The rightwing was all for it! Remember Ashcroft telling us that those who opposed this were 'scaring peace loving Americans with phantoms of lost liberty'??? You can't revise history poppy, as much as you try.

Ashcroft was in government. Never believe everything anyone in government tells you. BTW, you should apply that to Obama too. To be fair to Bush, this spying stuff didn't start out as big a deal as it is now. Like all government endeavors, it grew in scope and cost. That big new data center they opened that uses 1.7 millions of gallons of water per day has been done under Obama.

[homstdr74]

Originally Posted by fordy

................NO ONE expects the CIA or the NSA to be forced to spill it's guts out to the Press about Valid Programs that it is legally authorized to conduct and ARE Constitutional , and fall within the purview of it's mandate from Congress and the Executive ! ALL elected members of Congress as members of the various Congressional Sub committee's have a responsibility to Review and receive testimony and written documentation about all activities for the CIA , NSA , etal . THE NSA has LIED to the Congress well as the American public and is Less than forth coming with just about anyone with the authority to investigate their activities . NO Intelligence Agency is above the Law regardless of it's administraters , THink .
.................Your post sounds as if Mr. Snowden has been revealing\exposing\publishing the specific names of specific operatives employeed by the NSA , my understanding is , he has not nor does he intend to ever reveal such information . Should he do so , or compromise the safety of any spook then , He should be imprisioned for a very long time . , fordy

Well, Congress may feel it has the responsibility to review our secret documents, but members of the military and intelligence communities may or may not feel that all of them can be trusted. If you've ever been in the military you may have run across those areas where signs are posted stating something like: "Do not talk to members of Congress or their staff; if approached by them contact your C.O." Like it or not, there are a few politicians who play fast and loose with what they know in order to gain votes, and "Loose lips sink ships".

[7thswan]

Originally Posted by greg273

When do you think this 'tapeing' began? And who authorized it?

Ask the NYT's, I hear they are holding a couple thousand pages of info given to them, quiet -as a FAVOR to the Government.

[poppy]

Originally Posted by homstdr74

Snowden=Benedict Arnold.

How many of our operatives have been compromised or killed because of that Bozo? His bedmate Assange should hang beside him. They've already received much more than the fifteen minutes of fame for which they were looking. Spoiled brats, the both of them.

Despite what you believe, I can assure you government is not kind or benevolent and does not work for your best interests. Government only works to keep the power it has and gain more. Our founding fathers were wary of big government for that reason. Were the people who conducted various experiments on various groups considering what was best for those people? How in the world do you get to the point of thinking someone who exposes government excess at great personal risk is a traitor? Can you show me even one of our operatives who has been compromised? The only operatives compromised are the leaders in the NSA and other agencies who planned and execute these programs. Don't worry about them though. The lied to Congress and nothing happens to them. Who are the real traitors?

[wy_white_wolf]

Originally Posted by chickenista

Putin 'lists' his income and his wife's income as fairly low.
However.. that is not the case.
His estimated worth is at LEAST $70 billion.
He owns shares, large shares, in oil trading companies, gas companies and Gazprom.
Now.. Gazprom is interesting. It is Russia's biggest business.
It is now 'state controlled'. Man.. does it have some shady dealings.
And they deal heavily with international gas concerns. Big movers and shakers.
If they want what you have, they just cut off your ability to ship, import, export etc.. until you give your business over.

Also.. Putin took over control of ALL Russian media recently.
He locked the doors on the news agencies and all the news comes from the State once again.
Also.. Gazprom (and Putin) took control of the film making, the television, the print media.. it is ALL run by Gazprom and the State and Putin has a dog in the hunt as well.

Oh.. and for those that said he would be a great leader...
Did you know that 146% of Russia's population voted in the last election?

Forbes listed him as 58th richest in 2013 and nowhere nere 70B

http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/list/

[homstdr74]

Originally Posted by poppy

Despite what you believe, I can assure you government is not kind or benevolent and does not work for your best interests. Government only works to keep the power it has and gain more. Our founding fathers were wary of big government for that reason. Were the people who conducted various experiments on various groups considering what was best for those people? How in the world do you get to the point of thinking someone who exposes government excess at great personal risk is a traitor? Can you show me even one of our operatives who has been compromised? The only operatives compromised are the leaders in the NSA and other agencies who planned and execute these programs. Don't worry about them though. The lied to Congress and nothing happens to them. Who are the real traitors?

And your information on the subject comes from.........oh, wait, people who work for, want to be, and are the very types you condemn. So you don't trust the military or the intelligence community, but you trust Snowden, Putin, and the media? Maybe those who put their blind faith in the NYTimes should start thinking: "what do those people have to gain?" You can put your faith in one thing: None of them are saints and none of them is kind or benevolent or is working for anything approximating good for you.

[poppy]

Originally Posted by homstdr74

And your information on the subject comes from.........oh, wait, people who work for, want to be, and are the very types you condemn. So you don't trust the military or the intelligence community, but you trust Snowden, Putin, and the media? Maybe those who put their blind faith in the NYTimes should start thinking: "what do those people have to gain?" You can put your faith in one thing: None of them are saints and none of them is kind or benevolent or is working for anything approximating good for you.

The choice is easy in this case. Snowden produced official government documents and the government produced lies. Why do you rely on the latter? Did you see Clapper lie to Congress on tv? That is perjury, so why hasn't anything been done about it? He didn't have to lie because he had other options but he lied anyway. No one is held liable in government for anything now. That is a shame. A few sent to prison helps keep others in line.

[greg273]

Originally Posted by poppy

No one is held liable in government for anything now. That is a shame. A few sent to prison helps keep others in line.

Yeah, thats kind of why I am wondering why Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz aren't in jail.
As far as Snowden, what programs has he revealed that were unauthorized by Congress? Seems that many of the powers granted to our intel services were considered just fine 8 years ago, what happened? Oh, yeah, a Dem got in the white house. Well at least he has your attention now. Bout time.

[arabian knight]

Originally Posted by greg273

Yeah, thats kind of why I am wondering why Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz aren't in jail.
As far as Snowden, what programs has he revealed that were unauthorized by Congress? Seems that many of the powers granted to our intel services were considered just fine 8 years ago, what happened? Oh, yeah, a Dem got in the white house. Well at least he has your attention now. Bout time.

Oh come on get real~!@
Obama has let the dogs loose and has put this nsa on a No Leash policy. So they are doing more and motte and more harm and are off the leash with no constraints on them UNLIKE what was going on 8 years ago Not Even CLOSE to what was going on 8 years ago this NSA carp is Out Of Control~!
Don't try to make Apples and Oranges the same like so many times before. This is NOW this is The Here and NOW, not something that happened 8 years ago.

[farmrbrown]

Originally Posted by arabian knight

Oh come on get real~!@
Obama has let the dogs loose and has put this nsa on a No Leash policy. So they are doing more and motte and more harm and are off the leash with no constraints on them UNLIKE what was going on 8 years ago Not Even CLOSE to what was going on 8 years ago this NSA carp is Out Of Control~!
Don't try to make Apples and Oranges the same like so many times before. This is NOW this is The Here and NOW, not something that happened 8 years ago.

That's like being a little pregnant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act
As soon as it was discussed, passed and told to Americans that is was OK to bypass the 4th amendment to make us all safe, that was the beginning of the end.
Abuses HAD to follow, there's no other logical conclusion. That's why you don't let them open that door in the first place.

[homstdr74]

Originally Posted by poppy

The choice is easy in this case. Snowden produced official government documents and the government produced lies. Why do you rely on the latter? Did you see Clapper lie to Congress on tv? That is perjury, so why hasn't anything been done about it? He didn't have to lie because he had other options but he lied anyway. No one is held liable in government for anything now. That is a shame. A few sent to prison helps keep others in line.

Sorry, not buying it. Been there, done that. Lived through the sixties. Here's something to keep in mind:



"Won't Get Fooled Again"

We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

The change, it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that's all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they are flown in the next war

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
No, no!

I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
Though I know that the hypnotized never lie
Do ya?

There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Are now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

(Pete Townshend of "The Who"---1971)


If and when those type of people (Snowden, Assange, etc.) overthrew the government and established one of their own, why do you think what they have in mind is any better? Think about it.

Years ago the Chinese government would, every so often, put up a bulletin board with this message: "We are experimenting with Democracy. You may post anything you wish critical of the State. Please leave your name, phone number, and address". Of course the internet isn't like that, is it, eh?

Wonder what happened to those "champions of democracy" in China?