Do you raise livestock humanely?

haypoint · #41 02/04/13, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pancho

But you still don't know if an animal would rather be dead than put in a cage. That is your opinion.
Animals might think differently.

Caged chickens become cannibalistic. They pick on each other. They have nerves and feel pain. They try to escape from being picked on. Therefore, I think they do not enjoy being in a cage.
They exist for us. If we did not desire to eat them, they would not live. If they are going to give up their lives to keep us from hunger, we must dignify that relationship by making their lives as comfortable as we reasonably can.

pancho · #42 02/04/13, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

Caged chickens become cannibalistic. They pick on each other. They have nerves and feel pain. They try to escape from being picked on. Therefore, I think they do not enjoy being in a cage.
They exist for us. If we did not desire to eat them, they would not live. If they are going to give up their lives to keep us from hunger, we must dignify that relationship by making their lives as comfortable as we reasonably can.

You don't know much about raising chickens, do you?
Chickens will sometimes become cannibalstic if free ranged.
You think a chicken would rather be dead than live in a cage?
Even people would rather live in a cage than be killed.

Lazaryss · #43 02/05/13, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pancho

People can treat their animals any way the choose, they belong to them.
I will do the same.

This is something I disagree with wholeheartedly. You can't treat an animal "any way [you] choose" and hope to keep the animal. If anyone abuses their animals, I sure hope they lose them.

pancho · #44 02/05/13, 08:51 AM

Animals are belongings. People own them.
What one person thinks is abuse another person doesn't.
Way too many people with those very long noses they can't control.

nduetime · #45 02/05/13, 08:57 AM

There is a difference in acting as a animal steward and a owner. Anybody can own an animal. It takes a responsible, knowledgeable, empathetic individual to be a good animal steward. I would rather know that the animal i was eating had been raised to the very best of my ability, had a good life til the end, feel i had to make no justifications to the way I did it, and still enjoy my meal.

haypoint · #46 02/05/13, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pancho

Animals are belongings. People own them.
What one person thinks is abuse another person doesn't.
Way too many people with those very long noses they can't control.

There are degrees of Animal Welfare. As a part of society, there are Laws, accepted behavior and common sense.

Drop kick a puppy over the neighbor's fence and you might get an opportunity to see what a caged chicken experiences. Your cage-mates might be carnivores, too.

You cannot starve your animals, you cannot beat your animals. If you think all laws that protect animals from abuse are “people sticking their noses into stuff that’s none of their business”, you exist well beyond the norms of modern society.

Yvonne's hubby · #47 02/05/13, 11:28 AM

We keep a small herd of beef cattle, and I am pretty sure they are treated humanely. I make sure they have plenty of feed, mineral blocks, and water available. Most generally when they are not eating they lay around calmly chewing their cud with that cute "contented cow" look on their faces. At one time I thought they needed a place to get shelter out of the bad weather... that opinion was revised when they kept breaking out of the barn to go out and lay in the rain, sleet, and snow! Given their options, they never go near the barn.
Our dog sleeps in his own bed inside at night, and sees the vet annually for his shots, has plenty of food and water at all times, gets lots of love and attention, and seems to be pretty content most of the time. Peta and their ilk can stuff it!

Old Vet · #48 02/05/13, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

There are degrees of Animal Welfare. As a part of society, there are Laws, accepted behavior and common sense.

Drop kick a puppy over the neighbor's fence and you might get an opportunity to see what a caged chicken experiences. Your cage-mates might be carnivores, too.

You cannot starve your animals, you cannot beat your animals. If you think all laws that protect animals from abuse are “people sticking their noses into stuff that’s none of their business”, you exist well beyond the norms of modern society.

Oh there is a lot of difference in abusing animals and the program you outlined. If you think that all abusers are the ones that don't jump through the hoops and join your program I feel sorry for you. I have no intentions of joining any organizations that has such rules as your program has. I guess you think is am dumb for not joining all the other people in your program but I never abuse any of my animals. It is like saying that if you don't join you are abusing your animals.

nduetime · #49 02/05/13, 02:32 PM

Hmmm, well all i know for certain is that A. I do not abuse my animals and B. i am not joining ANY organizations.

plowhand · #50 02/05/13, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Dolittle

Will we refuse to buy Chinese chicken raised in cages also ?.... I doubt it ... the ole double standard will continue until our higher over-head and production costs eliminate us from the market place.

I try to see that food from very few foreign countries come into my home, processed packed food that is. I want nothing from China and Mexico, and won't buy it I can help it.

haypoint · #51 02/05/13, 03:51 PM

Don’t you find it interesting to “connect the dots” so to speak? We have witnessed, over the past 50 years, the growth and efficiency of Big Ag. Then, some folks marketed Organic as a way to turn away from Big Ag practices. But then, many different Organic groups got together and a single set of standards was accepted and adopted and you had to follow a set of guidelines to grow and sell as Organic. It has taken awhile, but now Big Ag is meeting the demand for Organic fruits and vegetables.
Then small farmers went after the demand for free range chicken and free range eggs. But, now Big Ag is providing Organic free range eggs and Free Range chicken parts.
The Angus Association hopped on this interest in what’s for dinner and now most consumers believe in the superiority of Angus Beef. Not to be out done, Myers Ranch is marketing Red Angus, humanely raised, naturally grown.
It was easy to see that the “far from the farm” population and a bunch of small farmers would buy into the anti-caged chicken and anti-veal calf and anti-gestation crate movement.
Ah, ha! Here is a place that the small operation can outshine the big guys. Let’s push for the elimination of all that labor saving confinement junk the Big Ag boys depend on. Be happy for McDonalds, Kroger’s, and every other major purchaser of eggs, chicken and pork, that they are calling the shots. They are forcing Big Ag to do stuff the Small Farmer couldn’t do alone.
But, we got the ball rolling. We got PETA working against Big Ag. We have the NAPCA getting video of Big Ag at their evil business. We’ve got consumers clamoring for change. They know they want comfortable lives for the meat they eat. They want them treated kindly from birth to meat hook.
Those of us on the small farms contributed to much of this. We knew (or should have known) that moving a down cow with a manure scoop wasn’t common. We knew a hog operation doesn’t hire guys to kick piglets. But the more the public hates Big Ag, the stronger our markets become. We win!
While public attention grows, they claim to want traceability. McDonalds already requires it. They claim they want humanely raised livestock. Big Ag is moving towards that. While the voices I hear among small farmers are to heck with traceability and while the public isn’t clamoring for lean grass fed beef, we want to prove the public wrong.
Do you see the increased awareness of the public, the adaptability of Big Ag and where we are headed?
We helped push Big Ag out of their battery cages and gestation crates. But look around at the setups of many small farms and the inability to document their production. Right now there is a large and growing movement for Animal Welfare.
If Big Ag moves towards Humanely Raised, Naturally grown, birth to death traceability and humanely slaughtered livestock, where is our niche’? What can we do that is special, a cut above, yet provable?
For those that do not market out of their neighborhoods, it isn’t a concern. But many hope someday to be able to market at least into the community where we live. Accreditation isn’t going to be a good fit for most small operations.
Government is staying out of this. You got your wish, no government oversight. But where will it end? Is the growing interest in “Buy Local” about to get a big slap-down?
At least read the requirements and see what we are up against.

Lazaryss · #52 02/05/13, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pancho

Animals are belongings. People own them.
What one person thinks is abuse another person doesn't.
Way too many people with those very long noses they can't control.

And that is where you and I have a very fundamental disagreement. If you cannot tell the line between abusive behaviour and non-abusive behaviour, then we are having the wrong discussion to begin with.

Old Vet · #53 02/05/13, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

Don’t you find it interesting to “connect the dots” so to speak? We have witnessed, over the past 50 years, the growth and efficiency of Big Ag. Then, some folks marketed Organic as a way to turn away from Big Ag practices. But then, many different Organic groups got together and a single set of standards was accepted and adopted and you had to follow a set of guidelines to grow and sell as Organic. It has taken awhile, but now Big Ag is meeting the demand for Organic fruits and vegetables.
Then small farmers went after the demand for free range chicken and free range eggs. But, now Big Ag is providing Organic free range eggs and Free Range chicken parts.
The Angus Association hopped on this interest in what’s for dinner and now most consumers believe in the superiority of Angus Beef. Not to be out done, Myers Ranch is marketing Red Angus, humanely raised, naturally grown.
It was easy to see that the “far from the farm” population and a bunch of small farmers would buy into the anti-caged chicken and anti-veal calf and anti-gestation crate movement.
Ah, ha! Here is a place that the small operation can outshine the big guys. Let’s push for the elimination of all that labor saving confinement junk the Big Ag boys depend on. Be happy for McDonalds, Kroger’s, and every other major purchaser of eggs, chicken and pork, that they are calling the shots. They are forcing Big Ag to do stuff the Small Farmer couldn’t do alone.
But, we got the ball rolling. We got PETA working against Big Ag. We have the NAPCA getting video of Big Ag at their evil business. We’ve got consumers clamoring for change. They know they want comfortable lives for the meat they eat. They want them treated kindly from birth to meat hook.
Those of us on the small farms contributed to much of this. We knew (or should have known) that moving a down cow with a manure scoop wasn’t common. We knew a hog operation doesn’t hire guys to kick piglets. But the more the public hates Big Ag, the stronger our markets become. We win!
While public attention grows, they claim to want traceability. McDonalds already requires it. They claim they want humanely raised livestock. Big Ag is moving towards that. While the voices I hear among small farmers are to heck with traceability and while the public isn’t clamoring for lean grass fed beef, we want to prove the public wrong.
Do you see the increased awareness of the public, the adaptability of Big Ag and where we are headed?
We helped push Big Ag out of their battery cages and gestation crates. But look around at the setups of many small farms and the inability to document their production. Right now there is a large and growing movement for Animal Welfare.
If Big Ag moves towards Humanely Raised, Naturally grown, birth to death traceability and humanely slaughtered livestock, where is our niche’? What can we do that is special, a cut above, yet provable?
For those that do not market out of their neighborhoods, it isn’t a concern. But many hope someday to be able to market at least into the community where we live. Accreditation isn’t going to be a good fit for most small operations.
Government is staying out of this. You got your wish, no government oversight. But where will it end? Is the growing interest in “Buy Local” about to get a big slap-down?
At least read the requirements and see what we are up against.

Yep it is because of big AG that brought all of this commotion.

**gone-a-milkin** · #54 02/05/13, 07:53 PM

If we give animals "rights" then maybe we will be able to (or forced)
to buy health insurance for them.

There would just be a small co-pay on having the vet out to do your dehorning and castration for you.
Cheaper pain meds for the cows at the farm pharmacy.

Lazaryss · #55 02/06/13, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gone-a-milkin

If we give animals "rights" then maybe we will be able to (or forced)
to buy health insurance for them.

There would just be a small co-pay on having the vet out to do your dehorning and castration for you.
Cheaper pain meds for the cows at the farm pharmacy.

You already can.

http://www.petinsurance.com/

nduetime · #56 02/06/13, 08:55 AM

Awww come on folks! We can barely afford health insurance for us! If I have to buy health insurance for all the animals too i am sunk. Sorry, the govt is already way to involved in everything we do or want to do. Between Natl. ID, certified humane, peta, FDA, and whoever else wants to get on the band wagon...thank you Ag survery...I am just tired.

Old Vet · #57 02/06/13, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nduetime

Awww come on folks! We can barely afford health insurance for us! If I have to buy health insurance for all the animals too i am sunk. Sorry, the govt is already way to involved in everything we do or want to do. Between Natl. ID, certified humane, peta, FDA, and whoever else wants to get on the band wagon...thank you Ag survery...I am just tired.

It is voluntary and offered at your vet. Many pay them for dogs and such it covered emergency and some shots. If you have a dog that has to have regular shots it is worth it.