Excommunication and Salvation?

Sure I can appreciate the context.

12 Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

But of course if each individual is to be taught by God through the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant there should be no New Testament at all.

As Church structure and hiearchy is closely based on Jewish synagogue structure this would then again be a case of the texts contradicting each other. Which I have often wondered is exactly the point. That is to create cognitive dissonance in the reader and force him into unending pondering on a solution to the puzzle.

So on the one hand Christ is telling the disciples not to believe as the Jews did. That is in a literal fulfilment of prophesy regarding the redemption. On the other hand instructing them to form a hiearchy and structure in the same manner as the Jews.

A hiearchy and structure the Jews expected to be annulled at the time of the Messiah's coming. But no.That can't be because Christ prefaced his instruction regarding the Church to not believe the Jews.

Round and round we go.

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Some folks are well off. I'm just a little off.

This is my understanding too. The "Rock" was the truth that was revealed to Peter.

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Christian Homesteaders Forum
http://christianhomesteader.forumotion.net/

Psalms 18:2 The lord is my rock

I do use the KJV Bible, but I also prefer the Amplified Bible ... same as the KJV, but doesn't sound like shakespeare or the kings english. (Same bible that Joyce Meyer uses).

I shy away from the NIV, New Living Bible and other contemporary bibles as their translations and meanings aren't always the same and the original wording and the original meanings are lost. If you compare the translations of many of the same verses between the KJV and the NLV, NIV, etc., there is a whopping difference in translations and wordings.

Now down to the meat and potatoes:
There was one extremely important commandment that Jesus said: That if you aren't born again ... you won't see the kingdom of God. Born again means being saved ..... Saved = Believing that Jesus is the risen God, confessing your sins to God (not a priest, not a nun, not a wooly worm catepillar or anyone else), repenting for your sins, and making Jesus the Lord of your life ..... that means everything you do should be to glorify him. ..... period.
It's not complicated and it's not Nostradamus ... the bible isn't filled with quatrains or mysteriuos meanings .... most of it is clear. Born again means getting/being saved. Saved=salvation. Pretty clear.
John 3:3 is where you will find that commandment. If you don't have a bible .... www.biblegateway.com (Maybe join a bible study group if you are unsure what is in the bible and how to undersstand what it says.)

I grew up catholic ..... I did everything catholic for 40+ years. The Priest never told anyone about being saved. Catholics don't believe in being saved. Jesus says if you not saved, you aren't getting there. Who is right here, Jesus or the Priest ?? When I went to a new testament bible believing church, I got my eyes opened to what the bible said as the Catholic Church never said you read the bible. The Bible also says that Priests will be held accountable for not telling folks what is really in the scriptures like the above. The Priest can read it all day long from the pulpit, but it's not the same until YOU read it verse by verse, page by page, chapter by chapter. Being saved isn't catholic, or baptist, or lutheran .... It's Scriptural and a commandment by God !!!! It's also a choice .... God won't force you to do anything. When you are willing to submit to the will of God and make a decision that what you do, you will be doing for him first and foremost and asking God to be saved .....then your life changes and it all starts there.

Praying the Apostles creed doesn't get you saved....... taking communion faithfully for 17 weeks in a row doesn't get you saved ..... sitting in the 3rd pew every week doesn't get you saved ..... Saved is a choice .... You are saved by faith. Faith in God. Not a church, not a parish, not a system, not in long traditions, not in a confessional, not by the best dressed Nun, not by your local Pastor, and definitely not by the Pope.

None of us are perfect ... we are 100% flesh. I'm definitely a sinner and stumble often. We are expected to fail. That is why God gave us a book of instructions on how to fix things. When you do trip up, you make sure you don't do it again. You take your demons ...what ever they are ... and you lay them at the foot of the cross and ask God to guide you on the right path. Psalms says your enemies are numerous and they lay in wait for you with snares and nets. The numerous things are everywhere that can lead you to do sinful things ... they are on TV, billboards, Internet, books and magazines, people you associate with, people you see ....... God will help you to stay on the right path if you choose to do so. (there is that 'choice' again).
God has told you to do only 3 things .... only 3. 1)Be heartily sorry for your sins and repent..... 2) get saved .... 3) Glorify him in everything you do. You do everything to please God, not the world. God will treat you better than any person will.

If you do these as he has commanded you to do ..... You'll have no worries that seconds after you die, you will be present with the Lord.
Don't shoot me ..... I'm just the messenger. I'm just one beggar trying to show another beggar where the beginning of the bread line is ........

Ohio Rusty ><>

Yes, yes, yes, yes. God set people free from the overlordship of the corrupt people back in the dark ages. Not all church leaders were corrupt, of course, but back then certain leaders were requiring massive donations to forgive people.
Thank God that the entrance of His Word brings light! The Holy Spirit showed revelation of scriptures on grace to Luther, and others, who were set free from the people trying to "sell" salvation to them.

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Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

So I am going to assume that excommunication does not mean anything as far as salvation is concerned.

That Christs prayer for unity in the Church was overruled by the Father in favour of human liberties.

That no special authorities regarding interpretation of doctrine has been authorised by God in any human institution.

The Jews have been deliberately misled by God in matters of salvation and the Law.

Being born again through the Holy Spirit will never lead to perfection in the flesh.

Contradictory passages in scripture are there merely to confound those who are not led by the Spirit

Those claiming to be led by the Spirit have access to the truth. If there is conflict in the testimony of those led by the Spirit then one of them must be speaking through the influence of a lying spirit.

Only at the judgement will anyone be certain of who was under the influence of an evil spirit sent to create delusions.

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Some folks are well off. I'm just a little off.

I am totally sitting here smiling. I am impressed by the various knowledge shown, the conclusions drawn (on this one subject), and the manner of discussion. Excellent excellent taking of the one concept, grasping the underlying meaning, and independently coming to a greater understanding to conclusively answer the original question of the thread.

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George Washington did not run and hide.

Your being sarcastic.

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Some folks are well off. I'm just a little off.

Postroad wrote:
Your being sarcastic.

From the tone of your last 8 questions, I'd say thats definitely the pot calling the kettle black ...... If you have lots of questions and have trouble with bible passages ...you should maybe find a bible study group and pose questions to them. That is a much better setting for questions like the ones you have.

Jesus preached to the Jews and Gentiles alike .... Same message for both. Some of the Jews got it as the 12 apostles were Jewish. Many of those baptised and converted were Jewish .... then the rest decided on a different 'choice' (there's that word again) and decided Jesus was better beaten and crucified than to accept the message of salvation.

You too have a choice ..... Like peak oil, or prepping, or firearm ownership, or hunting, or eating meat .... there will always people on both sides of the fence making their own choice from what they read and believe. If someone can talk you into something, someone else can talk you out of it.

Some folks are happy without any religous beliefs at all ..... What ever floats your boat ......
Ohio Rusty ><>

You are proposing that man has free will to choose,reject or lose salvation.

I will give a Spirit led Christian who believes in God's sovereignty a chance to answer this one.

Unless they are all to embarassed to stand up for their belief. In which case you can let an Agnostic present your case for you.

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Some folks are well off. I'm just a little off.

Nope. Not at all. I enjoyed seeing others dissect the "under the thumb" power of excommunication some "churches" try to wield as an ultimate threat get stripped barenekkid for what it is. Peeling back the shoddy outer layers of onions to get to the good stuff can be traumatic and make us cry, but the task is well worth it.

I also loved the fact that some IMMEDIATELY knew how I was referencing the idea that Jesus didn't "belong" to any Christian church, and responded much the way that I would.

You were wise to check out whether or not I was being sarcastic though. Sometimes unintentional irony can creep into what I write. Sarcastic though? Most times you'd be aware of it.

Hey wait... you weren't being sarcastic about my being sarcastic, are you?

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George Washington did not run and hide.

Postroad wrote:
You are proposing that man has free will to choose..........

I'm not the one proposing it .... Like I said ... I'm just the messenger. Let me also refer you to John 3:15 .... I hate throwing out bible verses ... it is so much better for those seeking wisdom to either read it for themselves in black and white or reject it all as heresy. ..... You care not one wit for my words or advice .... Read it for yourself ..... There is probably a kindle app for this also if you are into that ....

BTW .... Having an agnostic present their biblcal position is about as effectual as a PETA member talking antihunting at the annual NRA hunting and shooting banquet .... Seems like a waste of time and breath for all involved......... Kinda like the old story about the lipstick and the pig .............
Ohio Rusty ><>

Nah. I thought you were being sarcastic.

In fact I am a bit surprised that nobody at all has supported the concept.

Perhaps the power of established denominations has come to an end?

What would be the point of even having church discipline if their was no meaningful reprecussions?

Makes one wonder how much material was added to the texts in order to support an established hiearchy?

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Some folks are well off. I'm just a little off.

That is why I left it open for a Christian to present the opposing view.

A view that much better fits the OT prophecy concerning the new covenant BTW

Are you indicating that John 3:16 supports the view that anyone of their own free will can choose to accept Christ as their personal savior apart from any act from God enabling that person on a spiritual level and a sovereign choosing from before the creation of the world. That all man is on a equal footing before God on these matters?

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Some folks are well off. I'm just a little off.

Nobody?

How about for a start.


Matthew 13:10-11

New International Version (NIV)



10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

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Some folks are well off. I'm just a little off.

Get the ball rolling.


Ephesians 2:8-10

New International Version (NIV)


8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


Ephesians 1:3-5

New International Version (NIV)



Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[a] predestined us for adoption to sonship[b] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

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Some folks are well off. I'm just a little off.

Some more.

John 6:37
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

John 6:44
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.


John 6:65
He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Closing the loop.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1.Matthew 11:27
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Luke 10:22
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him

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Some folks are well off. I'm just a little off.

Sounds like you might be trying to bait?

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George Washington did not run and hide.

Pauls view.


Romans 9:6-24

New International Version (NIV)



God’s Sovereign Choice
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[a] 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[b]
10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[c] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[d]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[e]

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[f] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[g] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

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Some folks are well off. I'm just a little off.

Just wondering where all the sovereign God Christians are hiding out.

To embarrassed to voice their opinions?

It seems the free will Christians are not nearly as shy about their views.

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Some folks are well off. I'm just a little off.