College?
 

Ok help me out here.

I've been thinking how to pose this question.

I will give a bit of back ground as to why also.

Recently a cousin, close cousin. We normally see eye to eye. relatively open minded also. At the least willing to hear you out.

Any ways he went back to School. Also have a Brother do the same. they both sound like the same broken record. I'm not against education far from that.
Its just the tune these two are singing. My Brother, yes sort of expected. the cousin though?

Some of the stuff from them has me thinking.

College was once the domain of the Elite. When it was limited to the few, even though a school of higher learning. Still very limited. Seriously a bright high school graduate probably has twice the knowledge of a graduate from 60 years ago.

College is not the start of, nor end all of anything. Even 60 years ago it was not even considered all that important.

From personal experience, I have seen drop outs who could out perform dozens of "graduates". they may lack in certain avenues but they could perform.

I'm not strong in written language. but spoken is a different matter. Either way I get my point across. I know Doctors,Lawyers,Engineers and many many different fields. I can do things they never dreamed of. I do read and learn all I can. I try and stick to things of practicality to myself. I do dabble in things of no practicality but find novel.

Well enough beating around the bush.College is a mostly mandatory thing today. It is a almost given for just about any job of authority or management.As well as working positions.Basicly it is no longer uncommon and requested and required.

So here is the question.

If our standard of Education has surpassed that of our Fore Fathers. Why has our country slipped so much?

I mean if so many educated people are in charge. Why so many bad decisions?

I don't get it...

It would seem that as our core became better educated. things would improve.

it seems to me a slow and study decline.

I can attribute some to the "I'm above it,I'm at the top" mentality. But not all.

I suppose Education and Intelligence and two separate beasts and very few possess both.

I like to use sum it up like this.

When it comes to Intelligence there are two types of people in this world, Intelligent and Ignorant. these two fall into one of two groups, Smart and dumb. Some may see these as the same. I attribute the intelligent/ignorant to natural talent, inherent. the smart/dumb is the exercise or lack of the talent. Most likely environmental or development or the lack of. you can be one type and one group. There will be a variance in ratios between different combination's. Does that make sense?

I think a high school student sixty years ago had more 'learning' than current hs graduates... current ones just have additional data that's been presented to them...

Why has the country slipped? Everyone wants to be a chief and no one wants to be an Indian. Everyone wants a 'position', instead of an entry level grunt job.

Too many educations are worthless in todays world... no dissing English majors (hey, I have one of those), but the burger flipping world is full of liberal arts majors. You want a burger flippin position, some places a BA might be the minimum.

A good internship in Electrical, or A/C and Heating, or Plumbing, or Medical Equipment Repair, or ... has much more job security and over time earning potential than the average College Grad. When I went to college there was the draft and I figured I could go into the military with a degree as an officer or get drafted and go to Nam and get my butt shot up. Well I went to Nam anyway, but the living was easier as an Officer.

You can fix ignorance with education.... but no amount of education can fix stupid. As Ron White says: "Stupid is for eva"! Dont believe me??? have a look around at the walls street occupiers. ;)

I think people learned Alot more 60 yrs ago in collage well atleast engineering side they built so much bigger projects with less data an easy an came out better an was doing the math by hand no computers. With today's technology I can figure most things I need. Collage IMO is way overpriced for what u are actually getting an they are selling. They try to sell top earning jobs with zero exp. I think there's going to be a return to old school values. Exp eduction internships acctountabilty

And yet, if given a choice, most companies hire the college graduate over the person with 10 years experience. Why would that be? Probably because the graduate will come cheaper than 10 yrs of xperience. I have a friend, un-degreed, that is trying hard to find a job. All the potentials ask her why she doesn't go back to college. She knows, if she does she will only get paid as much as a new grad - not one with the 10 yrs experience. Her experience isn't working out very well for her right now. She will have to take a 20% cut in pay to get a job and each job she gets is for a smaller and smaller company with less opportunity for advancement and further experience.

DH has many people put his education down. He's an engineer. Everywhere he goes people tell me that they can do what he does without "that fancy" education. Most of the production line workers tell him this every chance they get. He says that 75% of the time, they are right. But that 25% of the job exists and it comes down to who knows the math and how to apply it. You can't get around that fact. It happens.

College also tells a potential boss that you are willing to put some work into something. They have a least something that has been quantified for them to filter through all the resumes. I think they would agree that it isn't the best method of filtering new employees. Many today want the job without the work. A college degree isn't the end all. There are people that are totally capable without the degree - there are also those that have the degree that use it well. We can't keep putting all people in the same boxes here. It's pretty ridiculous to think that all college is worthless. It isn't.

I think the bigger problem is that people spend too much money getting that degree while changing their minds on what it is they really want to do - and living the party lifestyle.

I disagree with the statement that high school grads today are better educated than they were 60 years ago. I think the opposite is true. Past generations accomplished great things with an 8th grade education or even less.

Doing math without a calculator trained the mind much better.

Open any large newspaper, or go online and look at jobs listed. Almost all will require a college degree. It is the "new" HS diploma and some jobs that used to require "just a bachelor's" now require a Master's. The bar is raised higher about every 20 years regarding education because so many people have a HS diploma, then a college degree. The next differentiation is a Master's. Experience doesn't count as much in many jobs as Callie said: companies can hire a college grad with zero experience for less than someone with 10 years experience and get the person cheaper. Companies don't want to pay for 20 years experience anymore. They usually will keep a few older employees on staff to "train up" the newcomers. It's cheaper for the company and some companies want those "clean slates" to mold into the way the company "thinks". The company doesn't really want to hear "that is not the way we did it a X", what they want is "how can I do this here and now".."oh is that what you want?".

Also, costs associated with a new college degreed employee are cheaper..they are younger - health care is less expensive, they use less sick days, most young college kids don't smoke, and most don't require expensive education to teach them how to do things that involve computers such as computer aided engineering, drafting, advanced software packages that are in place now such as Oracle, BAAN, SAP, etc. as most college grads get exposed to that in college. So it works out cheaper in the long run for the company.

No one said college is the end all be all of everything. But try getting a job without a degree (any sort of degree) is darned near impossible unless you are specifically looking a trade where you have years of experience (electrician, plumber, carpenter). Heck you can't even get a job in large construction companies such as an "overseer" anymore as those jobs are now called "Project Managers" and they require a 4 year degree in engineering, and an additional certification in project management. My dad would be appalled as he could build darned near anything and managed huge construction projects..but now he likely could not get a job in that same field working for a large company such as Ruby Collins or Brassfield and Gorrie.

Just saying what used to get folks in the door (hard work, years of experience, etc.) doesn't seem to have the same value these days as a college degree that is worthwhile (one of those non liberal arts types of degrees)..engineering, quality, biophysics, etc.

Some math might be able to be done with pencil and paper, but the advanced math that the engineers where I work do would take a week to work out the problem without the aid of scientific calculators. We, as a company, do not have the time to spend working all that math out (software developers and programmers) by hand, otherwise we would never get product to market. I do statistical analysis, yes I know the theory behind it, but why spend days doing the math by hand when I can put the inputs in and my computer calculates it for me? As long as I get the answer I require, there is no point. We are working leaner these days - less people doing more jobs - there simply isn't time to do everything the "old" way. Even if there were, why would one want to go through that day after day? I am very thankful for computers and calculators..makes my job much easier. :)

Young people today want to be a chief but no one wants to earn it. Teenagers used to have seat of the pants knowledge now kids only have learned knowledge....well except playing on computers. It is no wonder all the "working" jobs are filled by minorities, no one wants to WORK anymore. I had young people all the time saying "call me when a supervisor job is available" I don't think so, you need to learn a job before you can "know" the job....James

High school grads today are better educated in some things and not at all educated in others. The problem is that the world changed. The high tech stuff of the past is almost obsolete today.

It used to be that anyone with a wrench and little know how could fix a car. Now, it takes a whole lot of diagnostics to keep one running. It is still good to know how to change a tire, oil, etc... but the average 8th or 12th grader isn't going to know how to fix the tougher stuff without a thorough vocational training program. The ones from the past wouldn't have known how, either.

It used to be that things were fabricated by hand in America. Today, US manufacturing is dying and those things that are still made here are produced by industrial robots that must be programmed to do the work. It takes fewer employees to do the work when robots are involved.

It used to be that office work had to be typed on a typewriter and the corrections made with correction tape looked tacky. As a result, a good secretary had to have, not only the ability to type, but the ability to be accurate to ensure that the letters looked professional. Today, we have spell-check and computers and can easily "fix" mistakes. This means that people who would not have made the grade in an office setting 60 years ago, are now considered adequate. Of course, the secretaries of old didn't have to be proficient in the Microsoft Office Suite and keep their skills up to date as the technology changed from year to year. Today's high school students are quite adept at keeping up with technology.

It used to be that letter writing was a skill... Now people no longer have the ability to communicate through the written word unless they boil it down to 160 characters or less. This leaves an opening for people who have the ability to write persuasive and professional communiques. There is a dwindling pool of such folks, even in college!

Things are just different today. To lament the loss of days gone by is akin to wishing that we could stay stagnant. That isn't healthy for anybody. What's missing in America is the drive to better ourselves. In 3rd world countries, people who live in huts will walk for miles to get to school to improve their lot in life. In the US, we whine when the dishwasher breaks down and never consider that most folks in the world don't even have one.

We don't instill a strong work ethic in our children and are satisfied as long as they bring home C minus grades. As long as we have this level of general apathy, we will continue to achieve C minus results out of all of our endeavors.

Every year my Dad was "gifted" with from 6 to 12 engineering students that he took into the field to give them practical experience. I worked for my Dad and even as a teenager I ended up showing most of these guys and girls their ass from their elbow. For a decade he begged to be given a couple of engineering technologist students. Nope. Only degree not diploma students. Finally that changed and so did the whole summer experience. That is not to say that the engineering students did not go on to graduate and do great things - some even worked for NASA - but book learning is only the beginning. Battles have been lost for the want of a mechanic not a general.

Today there is at least 100 times as much to learn as there was 200 hundred years ago. In Jefferson's time, it was possible for a person to learn all the knowledge available in the Western World. (at least I believe that's what I read somewhere)

Think of all the major inventions of the last 50 years. Think of the world wars, the fall of world communism, racial equality in the US, and on and on.

The problem may be there is so much to learn, that many students are simply overwhelmed.

Some of the terms We all are using are subjective.
Much of this is Generalizations.
Does not make it wrong just not 100% right. At least in a meeting of the minds.
As far as the term Young, Young to me is a 20 something. That Generation cant really be blamed for the slide. they have a while before they get a chance to screw or fix anything.

Those that are in the positions of power, the decision makers are in the 40-60 age range. I still do not think it started there. They just continue in like fashion as the predecessors.

my previous post said "Seriously a bright high school graduate probably has twice the knowledge of a graduate from 60 years ago."

I think the current crop of kids, are heads and tails above the last few. My generation, a majority did not take school seriously. I owe that to the 60's,70's,80's generations and proliferation of the hippy ideals and a break from working practices. I think that type of thinking is changing. What I see in the majority of the current lower education students is much different then what I saw in my peers.

I'm not against Education, far from it. I just want to know why with so many better educated people. Why is our system so screwed?

I also know all things change. Life is dynamic in every aspect. Change is inevitable. But my point is. should not that change be for the better?

Things got broke some where,I do not propose returning to how things where done in the past. Save of course it returns this country to the prosperity we once enjoyed.
I think even the stupid can agree "If it isn't broke,don't fix it!"

Not trying to knock anyone, or group. Just seems that a Educated populace would do better not worse.
I also know its not all completely on education. Something to say about the impressionable mind.
Well children are the easiest to influence, all minds are moldable, perhaps there's a huge crack in the mold?

Yvonne's hubby, Stupid is a better choice of word then ignorant in my previous post.

you know, this may be a big part of it. the Devil is in the details.
it may not be that students are over whelmed but that educators, whittle it down and chose the wrong thing to include and exclude.

In the last several jobs dh has worked the job requirements called for at least a 2 year degree. Didn't matter much what kind of experience you had, that degree was required. Lots of other jobs he could have done but didn't apply for because a 4 year degree was required. Now he wishes he had had the time and money to get that 4 year degree. The salary isn't much more but there are more opportunities.

While having an English major may not get you a job, I do wish a lot more places required employees to have good language arts skills. I can't tell you the times I have seen professional papers and websites with glaring grammatical and spelling errors. IMO it makes the company look lazy and ignorant.

They are changing promotional requirements in my Fire Dept to include a degree. They don't even care WHAT the degree is. What we are having now is people in charge who have a degree, and no street smarts. That gets people killed. I think there is a place for degrees, but this isn't one of them. Someone's degree over years of street knowledge and departmental rules and regulations knowledge? Ludicrous. I would take the direction of someone with 20 years in the department over someone with a "degree" any day. As for attending college, with our swings shifts based on an 8 day work week, it isn't easy for us to attend a college; some people do college online and I guess if I choose to promote I will have to do the same. This is no replacement for real-world knowledge, though. Maybe there is a place for it in the managerial promotions, but on the street, there is no place for it.

let me put it this way, Bob is a Carpenter. Bob doesn't have the best tools and his jobs are always lacking. Bobs Employer feels Bob could do better if he had proper tools. So Bobs Employer requires Bob acquire better tools. Bob does. But now Bobs performance is worse then it ever was!

So in the Employers infinite wisdom.That Bob would do a better Job with proper tools.
Why is Bob not performing after upgrading his tools!

I think it's overrated myself. My husband went to the 6th grade and runs a very successful contractor business for 25 years now. He quit school to help on the family farm. He planned on retiring a few years ago but missed the work. He employees 20 people. I didn't finish the 9th grade and run bunnies company and started my own business 10 years ago. It's all in the motivation and willingness to work for what you want.

Went to school for machining. Best thing I ever did. Now I make approximately $12 an hour working for a non profit. I've interviewed for a job and been offered a position for $15 an hour then in 3 months I will be making probably around $18 an hour. Not bad for a certificate. I have two. One in Machining Technology and one in Composite Technology.

I'm laughing my head off just got an iPhone and it's suppose to auto correct, just read my post above this one hahaha guess my fingers are too chubby for a touch screen lol

Yeah, But.........
I saw on the News this morning that the Unemployment Rate for those
with a highschool education is 9.4%

with a College degree, the Unemployment Rate is 4.2%.
That's a big difference.

A good friend has his own electrical business. He works the business ALONE, because he cannot find anyone (relatives included) who share his requirement that the work be done flawlessly. It's a shame that he finds it almost impossible to find help that will do a job the right way, all of the time. Too many employees have a "it's good enough for government work" attitude. SOOO - while he could hire as many as 8-10 other employees, he intentionally stays very small and only accepts the jobs that he can do himself, rather than deal with correcting employees mistakes. It's a crying shame......

I guess I never though of college as being a place for the intelligent or the elite.

I always thought that college was where you went to LEARN A TRADE and to be qualified for a job. Unless, of course, you simply wanted to learn a foreign language or whatever.

I've read the above posts and haven't seen any reference to the difference between education and common sense. Not that a lot of highly educated people don't have it, but is seems like a whole lot more don't.

Practical use of theory is different from knowing the theory. Most Phd's couldn't square the layout for a building, but almost any carpenter can (pretty simple math).

It's a sad state we've come to when proven ability is disregarded and unproven potential is regarded.

Downhome: Bob is a lousy carpenter if he blames his tools. New tools won't fix him.

Bob didnt blame his tools, the boss did. well he may be a lousy carpenter that was not the gist. But again you do have a point!

Seems every one reads what they want. that is not aimed at you Tom!

MoonRiver seems the only one to offer a answer.

Every one else seems to offer their position!

kinda like College Professors?

here is one you Folk's may be able to answer,and a few already did.

How many of the previous respondents attended a school of higher Education?

that's straight forward no stress on the frontal lobes. it was or was not.
if you did not, do not worry about responding.

Each person is born with certain talents and aptitudes.

Education, in its broadest sense, can help each of us apply those talents to a greater degree.

I think anyone can benefit from further education. Some get by fine with very little education. Some are mostly useless even with a lot of education.

Generalizations and anecdotal evidence rarely reflect the norm!

I can agree with you. though its not really a answer. bit kind of mirrors Toms take on Bob, as well as Yvonne's Hubby on cant fix stupid.

So I guess I have maybe 3 responses that come close to being a answer?

So to read through the lines , I would have to assume (I never assume but with 20 responses, I'm gonna just this once) Our population, regardless of education is stupid, and have far to much to learn. So we will make do with what we have available. If I take a something from a few other responses, they are also Lazy. which would explain the willingness to make do?

I've attended 3 schools of higher education, 1 tech school, 1 trade school, 1 university. I have a 2 year degree in Forestry Management. It's not what I wanted to do and isn't related to what I do now. I have no idea even if I would be able to get a job doing what I want to do or even if a job like that is available anywhere.

I have seen people who have certain required education but no practical skills and no idea how to apply that knowledge to the world around them. College doesn't reward you for thinking outside the box. Your answers are supposed to fall into their distinct category with a strict right or wrong outcome. You get no credit for creativity and less for not coming to the correct answer the correct way. So when left to figure out something on their own, most people with higher education are just totally lost.

That might be why the country is headed downhill so fast. The people in charge have been told that the answer is either right or wrong, there is no compromise, there is no alternative solution. And most important, they just don't know how to figure it out for themselves. I see it a lot in the college students I work with in my job, if there is an unexpected glitch they are totally lost. They don't know how to work around it, they don't know where to go for help, they don't have any idea how to solve the problem themselves. Another big thing I see is that a lot of them are almost afraid to figure it out for themselves. It's almost like they are afraid they'll do the wrong thing.

I would like to know why there is a text book in college, for high school grads, that explains how to write a complete sentence!

Still not really a answer,at least in the form I'm looking for. but you did seek to explain it! so I can give you credit on this one!

I think your really close! if we were playing hot and cold, I'd say your "RED HOT".

So based on this response Danaus29, could it be condensed to.

Our Accepted and Required Higher Education is Lacking. or maybe take it a step farther and say its a dismal Failure.

if its the Lacking, I think you nailed it.

if Failure, is it the Students or the System? Or a combination there of.

I will say perhaps this builds on MoonRiver reply at post 12?
Or maybe my take on it.
I said the Devils in the Details.
Perhaps the pertinent details have been stricken from the curriculum or never even considered? Perhaps they where lost in Translation?

I actually had a talk with one of my elders, they said when they where in college. Every class had 6-8 books to read, all from different points of view.
and that that's not so true today, well you still may have 6-8 books that the point of view is the same.Mostly directed by the professors point of view. We also touched on the "this is the only right answer" everything else is wrong.Even though the right answer may only apply to certain situations or only be right when combined with other facts.
And there may well be other correct answers.
though never to be acknowledged.
I actually got marked down in grade school for expanding upon a answer.
I was correct, the teacher even acknowledged that, though it was not in the curriculum. Wouldn't that be extra credit? or at the least marked correct,since I did answer what the question was asking. I just thought it important to include what they failed to.

its almost like its more important to conform then to perform.

little bit of a tangent. but I am thinking perhaps this is part of it.

I asked for a answer, I don't think its a simple one by any means.

Again I'm just trying to understand. which I don't. But I am thinking about this.

the problems we are facing did not just crop up either. I think it started shortly after Independence. I think a good part boils down to Education or lack of, as well as a unwavering bending (I know oxymoron) to Authority. right or wrong.
The latter part stemming from inherent behaviors of the Immigrant. Carried with them from Generations accustom to totalitarian systems.
Which not all but a majority possessed. And can be seen even today.
After the Revolution, I do not think Authority was questioned in mass untill
the 60's. I think it went to far though. In order to bring change or stay in power, the nose was cut off to spite the face.

Seriously, if you want to change the way you plant. Do you start laying your seed on the ground. or do you do whats always worked and drill holes and cover. I understand TMC was saying that you can't stay stagnate and change is a given. But even when the Pilgrims learned from the Indians a little fish in the hole first, was a great improvement. they did not change anything else in the planting. Still drilled a hole and still covered.

I know I always got poor marks in school for those "what idea is the author presenting" type questions. The author was long since dead so they couldn't possibly have asked them what they meant by a certain passage or story so the whole thing was subjective to what the professor or teacher saw in the story. Some people say that Melville's Moby Dick is a representation of man fighting with the devil. All I can think is ?????? Why did it have to have undertones and hidden meanings? Why couldn't the teacher look at it as a story about whaling as it was done in Melville's time? I've even heard that Anne Frank had a hidden agenda when she kept her diary and an assignment was to explain the meaning behind what she wrote! Seriously? The girl had a hidden agenda and wasn't simply writing about the day to day happenings in her lifetime? I don't understand where they get this stuff. In what I saw in dd's middle school books you were supposed to read a passage and answer questions at the end. But the questions were not relevant to the passage. The questions were about drawing suppositions and assumptions and if they weren't what the text book writers wanted you to surmise from the passage the answer was wrong. Many of the "answers" were not related to what was asked in the "questions". I'm not stupid by any means and always did well in school but I could not understand what is was they wanted in the form of answers in that textbook. In ds's science classes you were supposed to draw conclusions from an experiment before performing the experiment. On some of his multiple guess answers the correct reaction derived from the experiment was not even an option. We did some of them at home just to test the book. You didn't get credit for performing the experiment and recording your observations. IMO the time spent studying those texts was wasted and more would have been accomplished by allowing the students to do some hands on learning or trying to research info on their own.

Back when I was in school and you did a research paper you were graded on your sources of info, how well the paper was written and how reliable your footnotes were. When my kids were in school they were given credit only if their research found the same opinions as the text wanted them to form.

My take on the whole thing was that the correct way was obscure and hidden and try as you might you still would never be more than average unless you conformed your thinking to what the text wanted for a response. The guidance counselor told me that my kids would never fit in with their peers because I had taught them to think for themselves and to figure things out on their own and to look outside the box. I told the counselors that I did my job correctly then.

I am going to take a stab at what you are looking for. My thoughts are that the problem stems from a lack of "reasoning ability", for lack of a better word. You can see it if you watch how people are "taught" as they get up in grade level (till you get to masters). In elementry children are incouraged to find the answer, think of how they are taught to sound out words, they are given the basics to begin with and then are expected to use those sounds to make the word. When I was learning math, most everything was done by hand, adding, multiplying, dividing, fractions, ect., now children are required to have a calculator for math and it has become " how did you get the answer?" " the calculator told me". When I was in Trig in high school, we had to learn to graph curves by hand, but by the time I got to calc in college, I could not get an answer as to why a calculation could work (formulas on the calc), I was told "because it does", wether the prof didn't know (she couldn't speak english) or just didn't care, I am not sure. I do facility maintenance, and the job in a big part is trouble shooting. I have noticed that younger people that I have hired cannot "reason", if you don't just give them the answer they can't figure it out and do the work. People seem to have forgotten that if you put black and white together, you get gray. Now all they know is that you have black, white, and gray.


I was thinking this the other day when an adult asked my DD5 if she wanted honey. Her reply was "yes please, do you know where honey comes from?"

(adult) "yes, it comes from bees"
(dd) "right, do you know how is it made"
(adult) "it is from bees"
(dd) "do you know how it is made?"
(adult) "yes, people get it from bees"
(dd) "I know, but did you know bees make it from necter"
(adult) "I thought we got it from bees?"

People don't care why any more, they just want the answer, and they are OK with that.

I love my job, I spend all day asking why. I get paid to be curious, to ask why, to reason things out, to find out answers.

People I work with, on the other hand, do not like my job as much as I do. Most answer "because that is the way we have always done it".

I reply "why".

That usually sets them back on their heels a bit.

I care about why because the why can affect the entire organization. I get paid to be nosy, curious, and questioning.

This is often a lament of mine. Many people can do things but do not know the reason why. I don't really understand that either. I need to know why I am expected to do something in a particular way. with out knowing the reason its sort of empty to me. I do admit somethings are very hard to explain and even by nature, not explainable. say for instance Love. you can give a close answer to many things related to it but none are ever truly absolute.
Its a feeling and everyone feels things different.

I think you entered part of the equation Curtis.

I think there are plenty of opportunities to have a good paying, satisfying, and useful career without a diploma from a university. A person with technical training in any of dozens of trades who has ambition, a good work ethic, honesty, and new ideas can rise to the top in the USA. There is still no limit for somebody who will get off the couch, unplug the tv, and get busy.

this is the problem with most of the other replies but shorter version.

It does not address the question.