Teacher Bashing

beowoulf90 · #41 03/07/11, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shanzone2001

Honestly, I wasn't even thinking about the union fiasco when I started this thread. I think the union does a huge disservice to children because they make it virtually impossible to fire teachers that are not performing.
I am not a fan of merit pay, but it does have its benefits. Personally, my goal is for each of my students to go up at least one level (there are 5 levels) on the state test, or if they are performing at the advanced level to keep them there.
Not all students will reach proficient or advanced, but if they come to me performing far below basic or below basic, it is my job to get them to basic and hopefully proficient.
That is how teachers should be evaluated...by student growth in their classroom, not by the number of students performing at grade level.

In other words, I take what students are assigned to me and work to move them higher up on the proficiency scale. If I do that, then I have done my job. If I don't, then I should be fired. Any other profession would fire me for not performing!

Again when most say "teachers" they are referring to the Union..
My Commander and friend was a teacher (retired). When he passed away 2 years ago the Civil War re-enacting community lost a source of information.
We would travel to different schools and give demos and teach students about the Civil War, from different perspectives.. So most of us dont' hate teachers, we hate the Unions that continue to steal our tax dollars in the teachers name...

So are working conditions that bad in a school that you need a Union like the coal miners did?

shanzone2001 · #42 03/07/11, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beowoulf90

So are working conditions that bad in a school that you need a Union like the coal miners did?

I am not a fan of the Union. They charge me $130/month and all they do is attempt to persuade me to vote for their liberal agenda.
Again, it is an extreme disservice to students to keep underperforming teachers in the classroom, but the Union makes sure everything is "fair".
Since when is life "fair"? If you are good at what you do, you keep your job. If you are not, you are fired. Why should teachers have protection from that?
By the way, I am one of 2 teachers I know who are not pro union.

Txrider · #43 03/07/11, 02:15 PM

I had a few good teachers when I was in school, mainly just competent ones, and a few that had no business whatsoever teaching. I figure it's likely just about like any other field...

bluemoonluck · #44 03/07/11, 02:28 PM

Not all states have teacher unions.... My sister is a teacher who works in VA, and they are a right to work state - no unions. My good friend is a teacher in NC - no unions there either. Here in Utah, there are no teacher unions - again, its a right to work state.

There may be a teacher's association, but really they have no power. In VA, my sister can opt to become a member of the local or state teacher's association, and they use the dues to fund lobbyists, but its not the same thing at all. The associations have nothing to do with hiring/firing, hours/pay/etc.

How many states actually allow Unions? I've never lived / worked in a state that did......

Laura Zone 5 · #45 03/07/11, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluemoonluck

Not all states have teacher unions.... My sister is a teacher who works in VA, and they are a right to work state - no unions. My good friend is a teacher in NC - no unions there either. Here in Utah, there are no teacher unions - again, its a right to work state.

There may be a teacher's association, but really they have no power. In VA, my sister can opt to become a member of the local or state teacher's association, and they use the dues to fund lobbyists, but its not the same thing at all. The associations have nothing to do with hiring/firing, hours/pay/etc.

How many states actually allow Unions? I've never lived / worked in a state that did......

Do right to work states have better schools / teachers??

bluemoonluck · #46 03/07/11, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laura Zone 5

Do right to work states have better schools / teachers??

Nope. I know in Utah (where we live now - right to work state) our state scores near the bottom of the heap. Want to say we're # 48 or #49 in the country for test scores, or something like that.

It would be interesting, thou, to get the ranked list of states' student performance and notate which ones are union and which are right-to-work, to see if there is a pattern there......

ETA: OKay I looked it up. There are lots of different rankings for the states, depending on what data they are using. Here's one fromn US News & World report: http://education.usnews.rankingsandr...ate-statistics

Utah is higher than I thought (3-way tie for #27), and I know that Mass (#2) is a Union state, and so is PA (#25) but not sure what other states are union. Virginia is # 23, NC is #19 - these are both right-to-work states with no unions.

Here's another one: http://www.alec.org/AM/Template.cfm?...ican_Education Numbers are a bit different, again not sure what data they are using. The 5 states I've mentioned on this list rank: RIGHT TO WORK: UT #42, VA #12, NC #41, UNIONN: PA #6, Mass still #2.

Anyone else want to chime in on their state?

shanzone2001 · #47 03/07/11, 03:10 PM

I am looking forward to the US testing system that will be a more accurate state rating system. Right now each state has their own standards and tests...some are more rigorous than others.

Curtis B · #48 03/07/11, 03:13 PM

As someone who does not teach, but is married to someone that is I have seen enough and talked to enough teachers and parents to know that the parents are mostly to "blame". It was the parents that got rid of punishments in school by complaining and suing when something happened. I know of a teacher (3rd grade) that redily admitted to giving her students the answers to the standardized tests when she talked to the other teachers. At the same school, there was a new teacher(4th grade), who taught the next grade up who was fairly new, but very dedicated. The parents loved the 3rd grade teacher, the only reason that I could see was she kissed up to the parents and let the kids run wild. The 4th grade teacher was disaplined, so the kids couldn't run wild, and was "frank" with the parents when the children misbehaved. The principal tried to help the "newer" teacher, but the complaints and threats from the parents were too much for him, and the good teacher who actually cared and tried lost her job. That is just one instance of MANY that I can think of. People have gotten to the point that nobody will accept blame when it is there fault, but they will go to no lengths to blame or sue the teachers, school, or USD. They are currently teaching their kids the same. For Bluemoonluck and Shannonzone, how many time have you heard the students say they are going to call CPS on you or their parents? I know I have, and I don't have near the contact you do.

MoonRiver · #49 03/07/11, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluemoonluck

Nope. I know in Utah (where we live now - right to work state) our state scores near the bottom of the heap. Want to say we're # 48 or #49 in the country for test scores, or something like that.

According to Iowahawk, differences in rankings are largely due to the percentage of minority students, not union vs non-union.

Quote:

a son of Iowa, I'm no stranger to bragging about my home state's ranking on various standardized test. Like Wisconsin we Iowans usually rank near the top of the heap on average ACT/SAT scores. We are usually joined there by Minnesota, Nebraska, and the various Dakotas; Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire...

... beginning to see a pattern? Perhaps because a state's "average ACT/SAT" is, for all intents and purposes, a proxy for the percent of white people who live there. In fact, the lion's share of state-to-state variance in test scores is accounted for by differences in ethnic composition. Minority students - regardless of state residence - tend to score lower than white students on standardized test, and the higher the proportion of minority students in a state the lower its overall test scores tend to be.

Please note: this has nothing to do with innate ability or aptitude. Quite to the contrary, I believe the test gap between minority students and white students can be attributed to differences in socioeconomic status. And poverty. And yes, racism. And yes, family structure. Whatever combination of reasons, the gap exists, and it's mathematical sophistry to compare the combined average test scores in a state like Wisconsin (4% black, 4% Hispanic) with a state like Texas (12% black, 30% Hispanic). more

shanzone2001 · #50 03/07/11, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoonRiver

According to Iowahawk, differences in rankings are largely due to the percentage of minority students, not union vs non-union.

Heaven forbid you state the obvious!

it is what it is. The facts don't lie.

beowoulf90 · #51 03/07/11, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluemoonluck

Not all states have teacher unions.... My sister is a teacher who works in VA, and they are a right to work state - no unions. My good friend is a teacher in NC - no unions there either. Here in Utah, there are no teacher unions - again, its a right to work state.

There may be a teacher's association, but really they have no power. In VA, my sister can opt to become a member of the local or state teacher's association, and they use the dues to fund lobbyists, but its not the same thing at all. The associations have nothing to do with hiring/firing, hours/pay/etc.

How many states actually allow Unions? I've never lived / worked in a state that did......

Well here in PA if you teach you have to pay Union dues.. We are not a Right to work State.. Unfortunately! Imagine having to pay off the Union/Government thugs just for the right to work... There is something wrong there on so many levels...

bluemoonluck · #52 03/07/11, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beowoulf90

Well here in PA if you teach you have to pay Union dues.. We are not a Right to work State.. Unfortunately! Imagine having to pay off the Union/Government thugs just for the right to work... There is something wrong there on so many levels...

I agree, as I am not pro-union at all. I've also heard that to get a teaching job in a union state is hard and requires you to know someone. When I was in VA a lot of our teachers came from PA - they would graduate but not have an "in" with the union and come to VA to teach. The county I lived in actually went up to PA and held job fairs to recruit teachers!

But keep in mind that a lot of states are NOT union states, so blaming the education foils of the entire country on unions protecting ineffective teachers just isn't a sound argument for that reason.

sidepasser · #53 03/07/11, 06:19 PM

Georgia is a right to work state, I don't know if the teachers have unions but I do know that it is almost impossible to fire one if they have tenure.

Georgia ranks 27th, with a C rating. What is astonishing is that 72% of students are not proficient on 4th grade reading level..and it costs over 10,000 to educate a student.

Sheesh, that is the same $ amount as the private school my son attended where they had 100 percent college placement. Seems that public school is not returning a value for the dollars received.

fantasymaker · #54 03/07/11, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shanzone2001

I enjoy what I do for a living or else I wouldn't be doing it. ....
My major frustration is that I can't get all of my students to buy into the importance of an education. It isn't for a lack of trying, that is for sure!
.

You try? So what you don't succeed and that's what counts!
Personally I think that teachers like you are a huge part of the problem. You don't teach and you don't quit. You complain about what school could be but isn't. Then you still don't quit.
If all the teachers that Don't(or cant) teach would quit then one of two things would happen. Better teachers would be hired or the system would grind to a halt and be replaced by something better.
I'm sorry you don't like to be bothered to do your job FULLY (or cant) but lots of others think you should still do your job TEACH.
Or quit and get out of the way.
I know being a good teacher is hard REALLY REALLY hard. I'd never argue that but you chose the job now do it or get out of the way and let someone else do it.
Face it you and teachers like you are your own worst problem.

lamoncha lover · #55 03/07/11, 10:29 PM

whoa....that is way uncalled for in my opinion. And rude and most likely from what I read pretty inaccurate

shanzone2001 · #56 03/08/11, 12:05 AM

That was really mean........

Tricky Grama · #57 03/08/11, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidepasser

Georgia is a right to work state, I don't know if the teachers have unions but I do know that it is almost impossible to fire one if they have tenure.

Georgia ranks 27th, with a C rating. What is astonishing is that 72% of students are not proficient on 4th grade reading level..and it costs over 10,000 to educate a student.

Sheesh, that is the same $ amount as the private school my son attended where they had 100 percent college placement. Seems that public school is not returning a value for the dollars received.

Yup-same here, well I mean tenure. And poor results. Don't remember where TX is, but maybe worse than GA.

Scott SW Ohio · #58 03/08/11, 09:24 AM

Fantasymaker - you might try expressing how you feel about teachers without making a personal attack on one of your fellow HT members.

Or if some post gets on your last nerve and you just gotta get it out, here's what I do. I type a heated response, complete with personal insults, and then I DON'T POST IT. In fact, I just did this a minute ago and I feel much better!

house06 · #59 03/08/11, 09:33 AM

I think that maybe one thing that is being overlooked is that in private school, parents are paying for tuition and have a vested interest in students doing well. There is discipline and usually an honor code in place. Students can and do get kicked out of school with no return. Public school attendance is mandatory, per the law, and other than the taxes that everyone pays to operate public schools, many parents have no "vested" interest in how well their or anyone else's children perform.

There are absolutely terrible teachers and absolutely wonderful teachers. It seems to me that problems facing public schools today are more a result of the combination of apathetic students, absent parenting, lack of discipline, union dictatorship and an inept Department of Education.

What teachers seem to truly desire are willing, eager students, an orderly, caring and discliplined environment, supportive and compentent administrators and responsible parents/guardians who take the job of parenting seriously. But no amount of salary/benefits is going to take the place of these intangible wants. Until whole communities come together to make their public schools better places then the problems will continute and no amount of money for educators will change that. These changes have to take place at the individual level in the manner of personal responsbility and accountability.

It is very sad to me that in third world countries, children dream and families struggle desparately to send even one family member to school and here in the" land of plenty "we take the opportunity of education for granted and treat it more like a huge burden rather than the privilege that education really is.

bowdonkey · #60 03/08/11, 10:04 AM

Good post house06. Here in MN we have excellent public schools. I'm sure there's poor one's somewhere in the state but not in my neck of the woods. Say what you will, but our teachers earn their money and then some.