Canadian health care

naturelover · #21 03/01/11, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SquashNut

It really is a matter of perspective on who the judge ruled for. The parents think the judge ruled against the baby by saying he shouldn't be allowed to go home and die.

SN, you've misunderstood. The judge did not rule against the baby going home to die. The baby can go home to die. That option has always been there and that has never been the issue.

The judge ruled against the tracheotomy that would cause more pain and extend the baby's pain and suffering if he goes home to die.

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SquashNut · #22 03/01/11, 02:34 AM

I guess I did misunderstand. I have to say this is one case where maybe they should be able to adopt.

ChristyACB · #23 03/01/11, 06:13 AM

For those really harping on the parents for even having the child; that isn't what happened.

They had a child. The child had a rare neurological condition and died. Canada's healthcare doesn't pay for tests you might get here to see if it was something in the parents or if just random bad luck. The parents just thought it was one of those things that happen. Tragic but not repeatable.

They had another child. That child is fine.

They had this child. The child has the same problem as the first. Only now, after the loss of TWO children will canada test for genetic defects in the parents. Of course, the parents now know this for themselves and don't need the tests.

So they didn't have this baby knowing it was going to have a nightmare life and death.

gryndlgoat · #24 03/01/11, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristyACB

They had a child. The child had a rare neurological condition and died. Canada's healthcare doesn't pay for tests you might get here to see if it was something in the parents or if just random bad luck.

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The hospital this baby is at has a very well respected genetic screening program that IS COVERED by provincial health care insurance. This family would have had 100% access to it, but I don't know if the neurological disease their children had is something that has any sort of test available, either here or anywhere else in the world.

Regardless, they would definitely have had access to genetic counseling about the known risks of having more children, all covered by health insurance.

http://www.lhsc.on.ca/Patients_Famil...ning/index.htm

ChristyACB · #25 03/01/11, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gryndlgoat

The hospital this baby is at has a very well respected genetic screening program that IS COVERED by provincial health care insurance. This family would have had 100% access to it, but I don't know if the neurological disease their children had is something that has any sort of test available, either here or anywhere else in the world.

Regardless, they would definitely have had access to genetic counseling about the known risks of having more children, all covered by health insurance.

http://www.lhsc.on.ca/Patients_Famil...ning/index.htm

That is for newborns. They, the parents, have already made statements that the occurrence with their first child was evaluated as "one of those things" and that was that. They underwent no screening. Their baby was not a newborn when it was diagnosed.

And my point was that these people weren't having children only to watch them die like some cruel game as has been implied on this thread. They didn't know they would have another the same way when they got pregnant again.

And you are correct, not everything can be tested for at all. It used to be thought that autism didn't run in families. Now they have families with 3 children with severe autism.

As for the screening...I read the same site you did before posting. Most standardized testing available is for post-birth. Rare situations are covered for pre-conception, such as a viable reason to believe Tay Sachs is possible or something like that. Generalized testing for inheritable conditions isn't covered.

AR Cattails · #26 03/14/11, 10:27 AM

An update:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/13...d-chance-life/

I thought this had all ready been decided but apparently not. I thought the baby was deceased by now.

wr · #27 03/14/11, 11:03 AM

AR Cattails, the baby would not have been taken off the respirator until all legal avenues had been exhausted and the family had launched an appeal. Although they have found a hospital to take the baby, the hospital has not decided if they will perform the surgery the family wants and has indicated they will make that decision after the baby is in their care.

Tracy Rimmer · #28 03/14/11, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyD

I didn't see you post anything about this, so i posted it instead!
Ok, so the article i posted was from Feb. 22,and yours was from Feb. 28. You consider mine "old news"? Interesting! I read this article, but couldn't select any text to post here! So, you don't like the idea of the child dieing at home and would rather see him die in an institution, cold and scary? You also don't have a problem with the government telling the parents what to do? WOW!!!

I may not agree with them(believe me, i don't) but this little boy is theirs and they are his guardians!(right!)

I'd just like to comment on your "cold and scary" comment.

I am the mother of a child who was in a "choose" situation. My son was born and immediately put on life support. He was hooked up to machines, and had more wires and tubes stuck in him than my car has under the hood. He was a tiny scrap of humanity who the doctors and nurses told us would not live should we remove him from the life support.

We sat with him, in a warm, loving, brightly decorated environment known as NICU for two weeks. The nurses cried with us at his setbacks, and cheered and hugged us over his small victories. The room we were in was not our living room, but it was certainly made to feel as homey as possible. We were encouraged to make that area our own, and were treated like family by the NICU staff. Our son was assigned a team of medical staff, nurses whose ONLY job was to see to his health and comfort, and always the SAME nurses, so that our child could get used to their touch.

When we made the decision to put it in the hands of God, one of those nurses held me while another held my husband. They were as much a part of our family at that moment as anyone, and the nurse who was supporting me cried with me as we disconnected his tubes and wires. She wept with joy with me as he took his first breaths... breaths that we had thought would be his last.

Do not tell me that that environment was "cold and scary" and that we should have taken him home to die. Had we done that, he'd be dead, instead of a happy, healthy nearly-16yo.

It was not cold, it was a warm and loving environment, as BOTH of the NICU units I have been in as a parent (yes, my older son was in NICU as well) have been. The medical PROFESSIONALS didn't counsel us carelessly. They prayed with us, they held us, they supported us, and they supported our decision, after giving us the options.

They also made sure that we were fully aware of the WORST possible outcome before we made our choices. Had we insisted on taking our child home to die, they would have fought us, because THAT would have been cruel, THAT would have had only one possible outcome.

Please, unless you have personal experience of a situation such as this, hold your comments. You have no idea of what is going on -- no one can until they've been through it.

Tracy Rimmer · #29 03/14/11, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristyACB

Canada's healthcare doesn't pay for tests you might get here to see if it was something in the parents or if just random bad luck.

Wrong. Genetic screening is available in high-risk pregnancy situations -- having had one child with a genetic condition, they would certainly have been considered "high-risk", and any applicable testing would have been covered -- if it exists.

BTDT.

JeffreyD · #30 03/14/11, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tracy Rimmer

I'd just like to comment on your "cold and scary" comment.

I am the mother of a child who was in a "choose" situation. My son was born and immediately put on life support. He was hooked up to machines, and had more wires and tubes stuck in him than my car has under the hood. He was a tiny scrap of humanity who the doctors and nurses told us would not live should we remove him from the life support.

We sat with him, in a warm, loving, brightly decorated environment known as NICU for two weeks. The nurses cried with us at his setbacks, and cheered and hugged us over his small victories. The room we were in was not our living room, but it was certainly made to feel as homey as possible. We were encouraged to make that area our own, and were treated like family by the NICU staff. Our son was assigned a team of medical staff, nurses whose ONLY job was to see to his health and comfort, and always the SAME nurses, so that our child could get used to their touch.

When we made the decision to put it in the hands of God, one of those nurses held me while another held my husband. They were as much a part of our family at that moment as anyone, and the nurse who was supporting me cried with me as we disconnected his tubes and wires. She wept with joy with me as he took his first breaths... breaths that we had thought would be his last.

Do not tell me that that environment was "cold and scary" and that we should have taken him home to die. Had we done that, he'd be dead, instead of a happy, healthy nearly-16yo.

It was not cold, it was a warm and loving environment, as BOTH of the NICU units I have been in as a parent (yes, my older son was in NICU as well) have been. The medical PROFESSIONALS didn't counsel us carelessly. They prayed with us, they held us, they supported us, and they supported our decision, after giving us the options.

They also made sure that we were fully aware of the WORST possible outcome before we made our choices. Had we insisted on taking our child home to die, they would have fought us, because THAT would have been cruel, THAT would have had only one possible outcome.

Please, unless you have personal experience of a situation such as this, hold your comments. You have no idea of what is going on -- no one can until they've been through it.

Yes, I have personal experiences in situations such as this. Experiences that none of you could possibly imagine and that I pray you will never have to go through.

Tracy Rimmer · #31 03/14/11, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyD

Yes, I have personal experiences in situations such as this. Experiences that none of you could possibly imagine and that I pray you will never have to go through.

In a Canadian health care facility?

JeffreyD · #32 03/14/11, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tracy Rimmer

In a Canadian health care facility?

Yes! While visiting relatives, my daughter(4 years old) became dispondent and lethargic, we took her to the hospital and after 6 day's of not being able to diagnose her, we wanted to bring her home. We weren't allowed to. She was dying, and your system wouldn't let specialists see her without a referal. We weren't even allowed to see her before she passed! She passed without her family in a cold scary hospital. We will never forget that YOUR system failed us. The doctor that saw her first left your country because of this! He has been our doctor for years now, here in California.

Tracy Rimmer · #33 03/14/11, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyD

Yes! While visiting relatives, my daughter(4 years old) became dispondent and lethargic, we took her to the hospital and after 6 day's of not being able to diagnose her, we wanted to bring her home. We weren't allowed to. She was dying, and your system wouldn't let specialists see her without a referal. We weren't even allowed to see her before she passed! She passed without her family in a cold scary hospital. We will never forget that YOUR system failed us. The doctor that saw her first left your country because of this! He has been our doctor for years now, here in California.

I'm sorry for your loss. I am particularly sorry that you feel "my" system failed you. Not knowing the particulars of the case, I can't comment on the appropriateness of the medical staff's actions or not.

I will say that with my extensive exposure to that system, that I have never considered any part of it cold -- scary sometimes, but not because of the facilities, more because of the medical situation itself. Having watched my mother die of advanced cancer and having the medical staff supporting us every step of the way, having seen my brother through not one, but TWO bouts of cancer, and witnessing the absolutely wonderful care he has received -- indeed, would be dead without; having seen the medical care that has kept my father alive and active, despite his heart condition, and my other brother leading a productive, happy life, despite his Lupus -- and having my own medical condition which has necessitated almost constant exposure to "my" medical system, I can only say that my experience -- and those of people I know here -- have been far superior to what the propagandists use as fodder to fight against universal health care in your country.

I won't comment on what your country ought to do about your own health care situation, for the simple fact that I really don't care. Your country can do as it pleases, as the voting public indicates they want. I can only say that in MY country, I'm very happy with my own health care system -- and I have never found it "cold". That's my experience -- take it as you wish.

JeffreyD · #34 03/14/11, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tracy Rimmer

I'm sorry for your loss. I am particularly sorry that you feel "my" system failed you. Not knowing the particulars of the case, I can't comment on the appropriateness of the medical staff's actions or not.

I will say that with my extensive exposure to that system, that I have never considered any part of it cold -- scary sometimes, but not because of the facilities, more because of the medical situation itself. Having watched my mother die of advanced cancer and having the medical staff supporting us every step of the way, having seen my brother through not one, but TWO bouts of cancer, and witnessing the absolutely wonderful care he has received -- indeed, would be dead without; having seen the medical care that has kept my father alive and active, despite his heart condition, and my other brother leading a productive, happy life, despite his Lupus -- and having my own medical condition which has necessitated almost constant exposure to "my" medical system, I can only say that my experience -- and those of people I know here -- have been far superior to what the propagandists use as fodder to fight against universal health care in your country.

I won't comment on what your country ought to do about your own health care situation, for the simple fact that I really don't care. Your country can do as it pleases, as the voting public indicates they want. I can only say that in MY country, I'm very happy with my own health care system -- and I have never found it "cold". That's my experience -- take it as you wish.

I have had exposure to the health care systems around the world, i like ours the best(up till now, Obama care will eliminate our coverage) Our system here has been very, VERY, good to us. All our family members were never denied anything, and recieved exelent treatment. My contracts stipulate what benifits we will recieve and for how long. Our doctor didn't like your system either, that's why he left and came here. We truly believe that had we been able to bring her home, she would still be with us today. I'm glad you have had a good experience with your system, we didn't, and it cost us dearly.

naturelover · #35 03/14/11, 06:20 PM

I think it's reprehensible that this baby hasn't been allowed a peaceful death yet and that makes me very sad. However, considering the interference and threats the Canadian hospital, staff and their families have been getting from American religious groups I think it's just as well that the American hospital has decided to take full responsibility for the baby's death and that they're incurring all his expenses. I'm sure the Americans who have been issuing the threats are also contributing large charitable donations to the Missouri hospital and will continue to do so from now on for every other baby whose parents won't allow it to die peacefully.

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**Ross** · #36 03/14/11, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyD

Yes! While visiting relatives, my daughter(4 years old) became dispondent and lethargic, we took her to the hospital and after 6 day's of not being able to diagnose her, we wanted to bring her home. We weren't allowed to. She was dying, and your system wouldn't let specialists see her without a referal. We weren't even allowed to see her before she passed! She passed without her family in a cold scary hospital. We will never forget that YOUR system failed us. The doctor that saw her first left your country because of this! He has been our doctor for years now, here in California.

That is terrible and totally inexcusable. When and where in Canada was this? Did you contact your embassy's emergency services? Very sorry for your loss!

HOTW · #37 03/15/11, 08:46 AM

I grew up in the Canadian system and now live int he USA. We are working to moving to Canada because the system here has failed us. We cannot afford to purchase our medical coverage because the price is too high for our ability to afford it but we earn too mcuh to get Medicaid(which is social medicine) but we also pay a higher tax than most in our income bracket because I am self employed(last year our AGI was under 45,000 and we paid nearly 30% tax!) I realized last year how unfair the US system is to self employed people and my DH and I decided it is time to get out.

When my Dad was dying from cancer my parents were lucky as they had Medicare and a back up system health from AARP but they still paid out over $2,000 a month on his meds alone. I have no idea how much they paid in copays for his care, but when we were on ho;iday we met some women from Ottawa and were talkign and I explained the system to them one lady DH was being treated for cancer and they had paid out not one dime for his care and his meds were over $9,000 a month alone.

Any system fails people, I have spent over 13 hours in an ER with nobody examining me but coninual passing th ebuck when a DR did examine me I was rushed to emergency surgery, which he said it was easy to figure out the problem and there was no excuse for my treatment. I had a TBI that was not diagnosed for over 5 months the DR's kept telling me there was nothign wrong! I developed PTSD because I did not receive treatment in a timely fashion.

System screw up, nothing new but don't blame one system over another, they all have issues

Witterbound · #38 03/16/11, 04:37 PM

Visitors to Canada are not covered by the Canadian Health Care system, unless they buy a special policy to cover them when visiting.

arabian knight · #39 03/16/11, 04:40 PM

And what just happened sure to a fair warning to the USA as to not get any type of health are that is even close to Canada. So much for Obamacare. It has to be stopped.

naturelover · #40 03/16/11, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arabian knight

And what just happened sure to a fair warning to the USA ....

What just happened?

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