Unease grows over the future of pell Grants

poppy · #81 12/21/10, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilmizlayla

role models have something to do with it, but there are other factors involved. giving opportunity to those who come from poorer backgrounds and where there is a chance to break the cycle of poverty....that is where its at. i dont understand the backlash against those who need help. what happened to all of the "i will give a hand up, rather than a hand out" mantra from the right?
are you now saying that education is not important?

Are you saying we don't give a hand up to poor kids? Look at your property tax bill and see how much goes to education to provide kids a "free" education. Then look at the state and federal dollars that go to education on top of that. Then look at the drop out and failure rates.

primroselane · #82 12/21/10, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilmizlayla

role models have something to do with it, but there are other factors involved. giving opportunity to those who come from poorer backgrounds and where there is a chance to break the cycle of poverty....that is where its at. i dont understand the backlash against those who need help. what happened to all of the "i will give a hand up, rather than a hand out" mantra from the right?
are you now saying that education is not important?

I would say that higher education isn't for everyone. We all have different physical attributes and abilities. We all have different intellectual attributes and abilities. We certainly need to get rid of the one academic track fits all we have in high school. This compulsory academic track creates inferior feelings and initiates life long tendencies to drop out.

Many trades have apprentice programs that enable people to progress to higher levels while not only supporting themselves, but their families.

Instead of giving people money to try what they would like to do, we must focus more on giving money where people have the highest chance of being financially successful. Then, later on, when they can support themselves and their families, if they wish, they can pay for the education to do what they want.

Further education isn't the only magic key to the future. Work ethic, dependability, and the ability to be a team player count just as much, if not more, and no one is teaching these things. I'll bet that right now, there are a heck of a lot more so called "educated" people unemployed than there are those who have strong work ethics, are dependable, and are good team players.

I believe educational assistance is needed more by those who don't have a strong work ethic, who are not dependable and who are not good team players. These same people, for similar reasons, will probably be less successful in higher education.

JanS · #83 12/21/10, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by primroselane

I would say that higher education isn't for everyone. We all have different physical attributes and abilities. We all have different intellectual attributes and abilities. We certainly need to get rid of the one academic track fits all we have in high school. This compulsory academic track creates inferior feelings and initiates life long tendencies to drop out.

Many trades have apprentice programs that enable people to progress to higher levels while not only supporting themselves, but their families.

At our school, kids can spend half the day at the technical institute learning plumbing, electrical, etc. I thought all high schools did that.

primroselane · #84 12/21/10, 01:01 PM

Technical or skills training seems to be kind of hit or miss. Doesn't always apply to the real world. We need to give kids the best skills and technical training possible, not just so they can support themselves and their families, but so that they can have justifiable pride in themselves and what they do.

Yvonne's hubby · #85 12/21/10, 01:27 PM

I had our boy running table saws, jointers, planers, skill saws, and numerous other power tools when he was nine. By the time he was 11 he was a pretty good welder, and does better body work and painting than I do. (Now if I could just get him to clean his room.) He will be graduating HS this spring, and is signed up to go to school in Fl where he will learn motorcycle mechanics. He should be able to earn his way in the world through no fault of our public education system.

michiganfarmer · #86 12/21/10, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow_girl

I think it would be wiser for society to invest its limited resources in the best and brightest, those most likely to succeed and pay back the investment in their education. I understand some countries give free-ride scholarships to their most promising high school students. Imagine the kind of achievement we might see here if we were to offer that sort of incentive? Instead, we reward teen parents and drop-outs.

pretty neat perspective

michiganfarmer · #87 12/21/10, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JanS

At our school, kids can spend half the day at the technical institute learning plumbing, electrical, etc. I thought all high schools did that.

ours can also once they reach 10th grade

JanS · #88 12/21/10, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by primroselane

Technical or skills training seems to be kind of hit or miss. Doesn't always apply to the real world. We need to give kids the best skills and technical training possible, not just so they can support themselves and their families, but so that they can have justifiable pride in themselves and what they do.

I agree, but that isn't going to happen by the time they graduate high school. There are still educational requirements to meet during the school day. They are going to need further training after graduation.

reluctantpatriot · #89 12/21/10, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yvonne's hubby

I had our boy running table saws, jointers, planers, skill saws, and numerous other power tools when he was nine. By the time he was 11 he was a pretty good welder, and does better body work and painting than I do. (Now if I could just get him to clean his room.) He will be graduating HS this spring, and is signed up to go to school in Fl where he will learn motorcycle mechanics. He should be able to earn his way in the world through no fault of our public education system.

If the college you are referring to is MMI, I hope your son also has about $25,000 per year available to cover the cost of his program, not including any other expenses while he is attending. However, if he does not, I am certain that when he fills out a FAFSA he will be able to be considered for federal, state and college level financial aid programs that can cover the cost of his tuition. Seventy percent of all financial aid is qualified for through the FAFSA application.

Or perhaps he better get out there and find a job that will allow him to put away enough to pay his own way through is motorcycle mechanics program. Unless of course you have the money sitting around to pay for his schooling.

Yvonne's hubby · #90 12/22/10, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot

If the college you are referring to is MMI, I hope your son also has about $25,000 per year available to cover the cost of his program, not including any other expenses while he is attending. However, if he does not, I am certain that when he fills out a FAFSA he will be able to be considered for federal, state and college level financial aid programs that can cover the cost of his tuition. Seventy percent of all financial aid is qualified for through the FAFSA application.

Or perhaps he better get out there and find a job that will allow him to put away enough to pay his own way through is motorcycle mechanics program. Unless of course you have the money sitting around to pay for his schooling.

I am pretty sure its MMI, but his program is 18 months at a cost of 14k, a good deal of which he has, and has arranged to borrow the rest as needed. Grandparents in the area have agreed to let him hang his hat with them which also helps. I have no spare money sitting around, nor have I ever had. He earns his own, flippin burgers after school and weekends. I believe in providing kids with opportunities to earn and learn, not handing them everything they want just because they happen to be breathing the air in my house. If you teach a kid the world owes them a living, they will come to expect others to take care of them, if you teach them that the world is filled with opportunity, they will learn to capitalize on the opportunities as they find them.

reluctantpatriot · #91 12/22/10, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by primroselane

I would say that higher education isn't for everyone. We all have different physical attributes and abilities. We all have different intellectual attributes and abilities. We certainly need to get rid of the one academic track fits all we have in high school. This compulsory academic track creates inferior feelings and initiates life long tendencies to drop out.

I agree that each person is unique regarding their strengths and weaknesses. As for the one academic track you refer to, there are four. One can drop out of high school, complete high school, complete trade school or go to college.

I was always encouraged to excel and I kept challenging myself with the hardest classes and finding the most challenging opportunities I could. I have no inferior feelings and had zero desire to drop out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by primroselane

Many trades have apprentice programs that enable people to progress to higher levels while not only supporting themselves, but their families.

Instead of giving people money to try what they would like to do, we must focus more on giving money where people have the highest chance of being financially successful. Then, later on, when they can support themselves and their families, if they wish, they can pay for the education to do what they want.

How many trades level workers do we need? Someone must be educated to do the other things that trade schools don't teach. Medical professionals, engineers, chemists, and more need more than what trade schools can offer.

It also sounds like you have no desire for someone to follow their interests, rather just shove them into what is profitable and cheap to train them in. I believe people should be able to educate themselves in what they feel called to do, rather than what someone thinks they should be doing.

Besides, once one has a spouse and children it is much harder to pursue additional interests or educational opportunities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by primroselane

Further education isn't the only magic key to the future. Work ethic, dependability, and the ability to be a team player count just as much, if not more, and no one is teaching these things. I'll bet that right now, there are a heck of a lot more so called "educated" people unemployed than there are those who have strong work ethics, are dependable, and are good team players.

I believe educational assistance is needed more by those who don't have a strong work ethic, who are not dependable and who are not good team players. These same people, for similar reasons, will probably be less successful in higher education.

I am very well educated, both formal and auto-didactic. Work ethic, dependability and being able to work as part of a team is great, but without education one is more likely to remain a burger flipper than not. I know how to be all of those things and more because I learned them on my own. I also know when someone does not appreciate my talents and thus look for better opportunities.

I have seen weakly motivated, unreliable and non-team players in people with all levels of education. My personal experience has found that most are in the high school or lower educated levels than higher educated members of our society.

Since I am well educated, by your description I should by all rights be your poster child for the hated highly educated worker, but in reality I am an excellent worker, very reliable and know how to manage teams as well as produce as an individual.

If one wants to look down upon anyone with more than a trade school education, thinking we are all fancy dandies, that is your choice. I give everyone a chance and not every high school educated person is an idiot just like not every PhD educated person has no work ethic.

In reality I could whine about all the minorities getting preferential treatment, or the welfare baby factories and so forth, as they seem to get more funding for their educations. However, because of my own efforts, my university provide more college level financial aid than I had from the state and federal levels, including my student loans. I earned that aid.

On another matter, community colleges are not always the best choice because there are only certain types of financial aid that certain colleges are eligible to receive. Community colleges while less expensive often cannot offer as much financial aid as a major university. Often a student can get more aid to attend a more expensive school and have to pay less out of pocket than that same student attending a community college.

There is also the truth that without financial aid most higher education, including trade schools, would be out of reach of most students and families. Yes, part of it is due to financial aid, but another is the need to keep higher education institutions equipped with the technology and other resources that are needed to train students well for their field of work.