Salvation thread

tinknal · #21 09/01/10, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher

I also get a bit ticked with people who say you can't tell/ aren't supposed to judge who isn't a Christian. This is just WRONG. Not only are we are to judge (the old tree by its fruit thing) we are given the items to judge them by. As I have said over and over and over you can't tell if someone is a Christian in their heart because it is fairly easy for a bad person to act 'good' in public. But you can very, very, very easily tell if someone isn't a Christian because of their actions.

"Thank you Lord, for not making me as this sinner is......"

I've always been convinced that the two biggest surprises waiting us in Heaven will be the people we expected to be there who are absent, and the people we never expected to be there who are present.

momofseven · #22 09/01/10, 05:45 PM

Thankfully Paul in the 2nd chapter of Romans answered the OP question. I'll summarize, but basically it says that every single one of us is a sinner, man woman, heathen or whatever and that when a gentile who does not know the law (or a native or other indigenous illiterate person) do by nature the things contained in the law (now by this I am assuming that Paul is talking about he moral law... the 10 Commandments, and not the laws of statutes, and that "by nature" he means what someone already commented on, our consciences) then by doing so they show the work of the law written on their hearts. Jesus told us that the two greatest commandments are to love the lord God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself. These 2 laws embody the moral law, 1-4=love to God, 5-10= love to your neighbor. So anyone who lives this "law" are saved, whether they can read or not or whether a missionary has come to their village or island.

And I believe that it is that simple.... religionists have really muddied the pure waters.

I also believe that there are no "second chances"... you either get it and live it here or you don't. And God has/will have made ample provision for us to get it.

JJ Grandits · #23 09/01/10, 07:10 PM

A very good pastor friend of mine once told me that God has given us all special powers and abilities. And he has been blessed with criticism. Lighten up folks. He loves us and wants us to be happy.

seedspreader · #24 09/01/10, 09:00 PM

It won't be popular but here is the orthodox, biblically based answer in a .pdf link.

http://www.netbiblestudy.com/00_cart...theheathen.pdf

If the lost are better off "trying their best" and never hearing of Jesus, why in the world would God burden us with the commission to tell the world? I mean, they'd all be better off left alone in their ignorance.

But the truth (as some one mentioned above) is that men are condemned already. Those who have heard the name of Christ and rejected him are judged for rejecting. Those who have not heard the name of Christ are condemned and judged by the law that is revealed to them in their heart. (knowing murder is wrong, theft, etc.)

(from the linked article) I understand that many of you have an idea constructed of what you HOPE to be, so I am just posting the orthodox biblical response. I don't expect that it will change anyone who has set their mind to something else, so don't expect a lot of arguments from me for all the other personal constructs (or as MNN says, LDS-type beliefs) posted above.

Quote:

Romans 1:19 states, "That which can be known of God is clear to their...[that is,
mankind's]...inner moral sense, because God Himself has made it clear to them." Despite the
fact that God has put...within every man...an inner moral sense...a "drawing power"...that should
cause him to search for evidence that marks the road to God, God will never interfere with man's
free will!
NOT ONLY HAS GOD GIVEN MANKIND AN "INTERNAL REVELATION"...A
CONSCIOUSNESS WITHIN HIS SOUL...OF THE FACT...THE REALITY...OF HIS
EXISTENCE...BUT HE HAS ALSO GIVEN MANKIND AN "EXTERNAL WITNESS"... THE
WHOLE UNIVERSE...WHICH LITERALLY SHOUTS OF THIS REALITY...OF THE FACT
OF GOD.
Romans 1:20 states, "God's invisible attributes ever since the world was made have been
clearly perceptible and understandable through the things He has made, namely His eternal
2
power and divine character. There is therefore no possible defense for the heathen's rejection of
God."
Despite the fact that the earth does shout of...and give witness to...the reality of God, yet,
nonetheless, man chooses to repress this truth in preference to going his own selfish way.
Because from the beginning of time man has had this truth of the fact of God...being reminded
continually of this truth by the whole world around him that declares God's handiwork...there is,
therefore, no excuse, whatsoever, for man not to acknowledge his Creator, Almighty God!
Even if men do not hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ, they still have:
(1) "the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and
their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing them" [Romans 2:15], and
(2) "that which may be known of God is manifest to them, for God hath showed it
unto them, for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are
clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal
power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" [Romans 1:19-20].
THE QUESTION WHICH MAY ARISE IS, "WILL THOSE WHO HAVE NEVER
HEARD THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST BE SAVED THROUGH SOME OTHER MEANS...
OR CAN ANYONE EVER BE SAVED BY ANY MEANS OTHER THAN THROUGH JESUS
CHRIST?"
The answer is, simply, No!"
Jesus said, "No man cometh to the Father, but by Me" [John 14:6], and Acts 4:12 states,
"Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is none other name under heaven given among
men, whereby we must be saved."
If there was any other way for man to be saved...other than his accepting Jesus Christ as
his Savior...can anyone honestly believe that would God have allowed His Son, Jesus Christ, to
die on the Cross?

HorseGirl31 · #25 09/02/10, 12:16 PM

Ask Jesus into your heart and repent. Christianity is God wanting a personal relationship with you, not you trying to be good and get into heaven that way.

watcher · #26 09/02/10, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinknal

"Thank you Lord, for not making me as this sinner is......"

I've always been convinced that the two biggest surprises waiting us in Heaven will be the people we expected to be there who are absent, and the people we never expected to be there who are present.

So you have no problem with a "Christian" who cheats on his wife and routinely cheats in his business dealings? What if he were in a leadership role in a church?

If you knew of such a man you'd just over look it and tell yourself "Nope, I can't judge."

Txsteader · #27 09/02/10, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher

So you have no problem with a "Christian" who cheats on his wife and routinely cheats in his business dealings? What if he were in a leadership role in a church?

If you knew of such a man you'd just over look it and tell yourself "Nope, I can't judge."

You make an excellent point about the business dealings, Watcher.

You'd think that, with all the howling about 'greedy capitalists' (greed being an undesirable character trait), that the left would agree that we need to strive for integrity and honor as individuals.

I guess that's why I don't understand the resistance and backlash about someone trying to stand for those desirable traits.

barelahh · #28 09/02/10, 04:21 PM

For by Grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of itself, it is a gift of God, not of works, least any man should boast.

Thats about as plain as it can get.

When you ask him for salvation, you are repenting at that moment, and are saved. Salvation is not dependent on anything other than the Bood of Christ.

tinknal · #29 09/02/10, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher

So you have no problem with a "Christian" who cheats on his wife and routinely cheats in his business dealings? What if he were in a leadership role in a church?

If you knew of such a man you'd just over look it and tell yourself "Nope, I can't judge."

I don't think you understand the context of the quote.

I don't HAVE to worry about any one other than myself (believe me, that's a big enough job!). If the man who sins regularly always repents, is he worse than the man who sins seldom and never repents?

wyld thang · #30 09/02/10, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mnn2501

Funny how LDS beliefs are catching on with mainstream Christians.

thank you

watcher · #31 09/02/10, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinknal

I don't think you understand the context of the quote.

I understand the context of the quote. I also understand most people don't bother to read on after that quote. If they would they would discover after removing the beam from your eye you will be able to see the mote in your brother's eye. You will note it doesn't say to remove the beam from your eye and then IGNORE the mote in your brother's eye.

If you continue reading a bit farther you discover you can tell a tree by its fruit. Saying basically you judge a man by his actions not his words.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinknal

I don't HAVE to worry about any one other than myself (believe me, that's a big enough job!).

You DO have to worry about others. If we didn't "HAVE to worry about anyone other than" ourselves then why are we to go out and spread the Gospel (the great commission)? Why not just sit around and make sure our lives are as close to 100% on track as possible and let others worry about themselves?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinknal

If the man who sins regularly always repents, is he worse than the man who sins seldom and never repents?

We all "regularly" sin and have to repent. But this is where judgment comes in again. If you point out a sin to someone and they say "Yes, you are right I need to correct that in my life." then continues to sin then you can rightly judge they only repented with their lips. That means you have to go back to them with others and point out their sin. We are to watch our for and support our brothers and sisters in Christ. Which means we must be willing to point out their failings AND be there to help them get over those failings. A lot of people are great about pointing out failings but very few of them are willing to help the person.

We all have some sin which is a stone Satan tosses in front of us that trips us up time and time again. But as I was told there's a BIG difference in falling down in the mud and wallern' in it. If a Christian falls, he gets up, clean himself off and keep going down the path toward perfection. A non-Christian will fall then lay there enjoying the mud and not care about anything else.

tinknal · #32 09/02/10, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher

I

You DO have to worry about others. If we didn't "HAVE to worry about anyone other than" ourselves then why are we to go out and spread the Gospel (the great commission)? Why not just sit around and make sure our lives are as close to 100% on track as possible and let others worry about themselves?

.

I am talking about judging others here, not evangelizing. Two different subjects. BTW, good conversation.

momofseven · #33 09/03/10, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinknal

I am talking about judging others here, not evangelizing. Two different subjects. BTW, good conversation.

Read Matthew 18... it tells us what we are to do if a brother or sister falls into sin....the bottom line is... if they do not repent, we are to treat them as an "infidel." And how would we do that? Same as we treat unbelievers, by living and preaching the gospel WITH KINDNESS AND FOREBEARANCE. Is that "judging?" I believe that the point Jesus was trying to make in telling us not to judge one another was to bring to our attention that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So we are really no better than the worst of "them." We need the same as they, a daily connection to the throne of grace. It's all about attitude......

watcher · #34 09/03/10, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinknal

I am talking about judging others here, not evangelizing. Two different subjects. BTW, good conversation.

Its all intertwined. If you don't judge then there's no need to evangelize. After all if you can't judge if they even need to salvation why waste your time trying to spread the word of salvation?

Also you seemed to have ignored the entire rest of my msg.

Christians ARE to judge the actions of others. Christians ARE to judge where a person based on the actions of that person. Christians ARE to point out the bad actions of people. Christians ARE to try to help that person. And Christians ARE to let that person make their own decision.

If that person reaches out for help then you help, if that person rebuffs you then you knock the dust from your feet and leave.

The problem today is a lot of people who call themselves Christians don't. They hide behind the old "judge not" and "the beam in your eye" quotes. What this does is allow a lot of people to go Hell.

willow_girl · #35 09/03/10, 11:17 AM

Quote:

We all "regularly" sin and have to repent.

Christians' lives must be a lot more interesting than mine! LOL

watcher · #36 09/03/10, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow_girl

Christians' lives must be a lot more interesting than mine! LOL

Must be nice to be prefect. The rest of us have to fight the flesh every day, heck every hour.

tinknal · #37 09/03/10, 04:26 PM

Watcher, I think you are still missing my point. My point is that the man on the steps was a hypocrite, someone claiming righteousness while condemning another who was actually more righteous than himself. THAT is my point. I'm not talking about calling someone out, that is fine and I do that quite often. What I am talking about is Christians who claim a moral superiority that they clearly don't have. I'm talking about Jim Baker, Ted Haggard, and Jimmy Swaggert.

Zephaniah · #38 09/04/10, 12:20 PM

In a nutshell

If you die before Armageddon, you have the possibility of resurrection.

Acts 24:15 (BBE) Hoping in God for that which they themselves are looking for, that there will be a coming back from the dead for upright men and wrongdoers.

it is obvious wrongdoers do not go to heaven. So where are they resurrected?

Psa 37:29 (BBE) The upright will have the earth for their heritage, and will go on living there for ever.

But what about those that die at Armageddon?

1 Thess 1:6-9 (KJV) Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

What about those in the Amazon or remotest parts of the earth that do get to know about God?

1 Chron 28:9 (Darby) And thou, Solomon my son, know the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searches all hearts, and discerns all the imaginations of the thoughts. If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cut thee off for ever.

and

Matt 24:14 (Darby) And these glad tidings of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole habitable earth, for a witness to all the nations, and then shall come the end.

But even then, what is a theologian ( with his latin , arameic, and greek) or a Christian (with a firm understanding of the faith) if it is not accurate knowledge?

Romans 1:28-32 (ISV) Furthermore, because they did not think it worthwhile to retain the full knowledge of God, God gave them over to degraded minds to perform acts that should not be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed, and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, quarreling, deceit, and viciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, haughty, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to their parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's just requirement-that those who practice such things deserve to die-they not only do these things but even applaud others who practice them.

This can be from the " false prophets" and "antichrists" . THis is brought out by 2 Tim 3:6-7 ; 2 Cor 4:3-4 and especially 1 John 4:1;

(CEV) Dear friends, don't believe everyone who claims to have the Spirit of God. Test them all to find out if they really do come from God. Many false prophets have already gone out into the world,

The final to your question --- John 17:3 - (Darby) And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

How do you know God? how do you know who teaches you is not false? You have to rely on the truth.

John 17:17
(EMTV) Sanctify them by Your truth; Your word is truth.

Who teaches love to one another?

John 13:35 - (BBE) By this it will be clear to all men that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

Does your religion believe in war?, "Just war"?, allow abortions?, get involved in politics? ( thus are culpable for politicians allowance of war or other "crime"), Does it make policy against God's word in the form of immorality, homosexuality, and idolism? These are the things I think are important in regard to salvation.

tarbe · #39 09/04/10, 12:28 PM

There is a practical righteousness, and a legal righteousness.

Practical is from what we "do". In this regard, we all fall woefully short of what is needed for salvation.

The legal (ie in God's sight) comes from what has been done for us, and imputed to us.

If Christ's righteousness has been imputed to you through faith, then this perfect righteousness will save you.

If anyone relies on the practical righteousness for salvation, they are in big trouble.

Regarding evangelism....I have a different take on the Great Commission than most.

The reason I have this different take is the word disciple (as in go make disciples).

The scriptures do differentiate between believers and disciples. All disciples are believers, but not all believers are disciples. A disciple is actively learning from and following their Master. A believer may not necessarily be doing that.

So the Great Commission, to my way of thinking, is more about training up believers and equipping them, and less about "making Christians".

We are always to be ready to give a reason for the hope we have, and to testify...but God makes Believers. We are definitely bit players in the process!

YMMV

Tim

Lyra · #40 09/04/10, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ Grandits

It is a personal relationship based on faith.

So true. You can't say you believe that Jesus died for our sins and think it is an E-Zpass to heaven. It is an ongoing process of trying to live life as a Christian.