The disappearing middle class

willow_girl · #61 07/30/10, 02:34 PM

Quote:

If you tell a 15 y.o. girl that if she goes out and screws around and gets pregnant she will be kicked out of school until she has the kid, she will not receive government help to raise her child and if she can not raise it it will be taken from her and she will be expected to pay child support for the 18 years it takes for that child to become an adult a large number of them are going to keep their knees together.

Do you think so? If that were true, it seems young girls would have been quite reluctant to have sex in the years before contraceptives were widely available and abortion was legal. But that's not the case -- actually, the teen birth rate was 50 percent higher in 1957 than it is now.

ChristyACB · #62 07/30/10, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher

Here's another one for you. A woman goes out to a bar, gets drunk and meets a guy. They go out to a car and have sex. The man can be charged with rape because the alcohol so impaired the woman's judgment she was legally incapable of deciding to have sex.

But if they have a fight on the way to the car and the woman gets in her car and drives off, she can be arrested for DUI because she should have been able to judge she was unfit to drive.

Now how can it be ruled she was not legally responsible for her actions in the first case but she was in the second case?

Okay! I get it...and next on the show. "The Case for Stoning"

Sawmill Jim · #63 07/30/10, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristyACB

Okay! I get it...and next on the show. "The Case for Stoning"

I got some experience there

When i was younger i was stone drunk a few times

watcher · #64 07/30/10, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow_girl

Do you think so? If that were true, it seems young girls would have been quite reluctant to have sex in the years before contraceptives were widely available and abortion was legal. But that's not the case -- actually, the teen birth rate was 50 percent higher in 1957 than it is now.

Funny, I don't remember the government removing kids from teenage mothers and requiring them to pay for the kids care.

Ask yourself this, what percentage of teens in '57 were married and able to care for those children w/o government help vs the percentage of today?

It was very common for a woman to be married and have a child before she was 20 in the 1950s. I don't seem to remember many government programs which offered to support women with children back then. Can you name a few and if possible tell me the number of children on those programs, as a percentage of the total child population?

Oggie · #65 07/30/10, 04:52 PM

The main reason that the middle class is disappearing is this whacky fitness craze.

With all the health information out there, anyone with the brains God gave a hamster is trying to get smaller.

The rich can afford those big cars, so you can still see them.

The poor are chomping down on cheep wink winkie woos and cheesy cheese doodles, so they're getting bigger.

The middle class are eventually going to diet and exercise themselves into nonexistence.

watcher · #66 07/30/10, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristyACB

Okay! I get it...and next on the show. "The Case for Stoning"

So you have no problem with a double standard in the courts? Say the case involve two different women. One is held accountable for her actions by the justice system the other is not. What other things would you want to see the courts have different standards on?

ChristyACB · #67 07/30/10, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher

So you have no problem with a double standard in the courts? Say the case involve two different women. One is held accountable for her actions by the justice system the other is not. What other things would you want to see the courts have different standards on?

No, I get it entirely.

If a woman has a drink, she absolutely deserves to be raped, right? And absolutely, when you think of it logically, why not kill her to prevent her from having "regrets" about it. SURE. Let's just go there.

And now, since we have that whole mess settled, let's make a public service announcement. That way all the rapists can get their taxi licenses and be sure to take all the calls when ladies call for a cab after a cocktail party. It would just make them so much easier, don't you think? Serves those horrible trashy women right for actually have a drink. Shame on them. Only men should drink and women bring it to them. Bow heads too or then they deserve some of that beating.

People who make the ridiculous statements like the one you did are why no woman can ever relax her vigilance against the real enemy....ignorance in males.

Bottom line...a guy gets drunk and gets raped by a guy...he's been raped. Same with a woman.

You go drinking and you don't give your keys ahead of time or take a cab on the way out rather than drive or get a designated driver, then you had intent and yes, you formulated a plan and then committed a crime.

watcher · #68 07/30/10, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristyACB

No, I get it entirely.

If a woman has a drink, she absolutely deserves to be raped, right? And absolutely, when you think of it logically, why not kill her to prevent her from having "regrets" about it. SURE. Let's just go there.

And now, since we have that whole mess settled, let's make a public service announcement. That way all the rapists can get their taxi licenses and be sure to take all the calls when ladies call for a cab after a cocktail party. It would just make them so much easier, don't you think? Serves those horrible trashy women right for actually have a drink. Shame on them. Only men should drink and women bring it to them. Bow heads too or then they deserve some of that beating.

People who make the ridiculous statements like the one you did are why no woman can ever relax her vigilance against the real enemy....ignorance in males.

Bottom line...a guy gets drunk and gets raped by a guy...he's been raped. Same with a woman.

You go drinking and you don't give your keys ahead of time or take a cab on the way out rather than drive or get a designated driver, then you had intent and yes, you formulated a plan and then committed a crime.

Ok then lets make the law the same for both women, if a woman gets drunk and drives you MUST let her go free because she was too drunk to say no to driving. Sound like a plan to you? Of course you have to allow males to drive drunk as well because if a woman can be too drunk to say no to driving then surely a man can as well. The point is the law should be EQUALLY APPLIED AT ALL TIMES TO ALL PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!

You get it now?

watcher · #69 07/30/10, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristyACB

No, I get it entirely.

If a woman has a drink, she absolutely deserves to be raped, right? And absolutely, when you think of it logically, why not kill her to prevent her from having "regrets" about it. SURE. Let's just go there.

And now, since we have that whole mess settled, let's make a public service announcement. That way all the rapists can get their taxi licenses and be sure to take all the calls when ladies call for a cab after a cocktail party. It would just make them so much easier, don't you think? Serves those horrible trashy women right for actually have a drink. Shame on them. Only men should drink and women bring it to them. Bow heads too or then they deserve some of that beating.

People who make the ridiculous statements like the one you did are why no woman can ever relax her vigilance against the real enemy....ignorance in males.

Bottom line...a guy gets drunk and gets raped by a guy...he's been raped. Same with a woman.

You go drinking and you don't give your keys ahead of time or take a cab on the way out rather than drive or get a designated driver, then you had intent and yes, you formulated a plan and then committed a crime.

BTW take a few minutes to re-read what I wrote. I said "have sex" I didn't say was forced to have sex. There is a major difference. I'd seen many of drunk women who were willing to do the deed and made it clear to most of the males at the party all they had to do was go somewhere w/o a crowd. If a drunk guy has sex with a drunk woman can you call it rape? I can't but the law does.

willow_girl · #70 07/30/10, 11:51 PM

Watcher, just a WAG, but you really don't like women very much, do you?

Your contempt oozes from every line. Frankly, it's kind of icky!

Stann · #71 07/31/10, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow_girl

...

So, what's the solution? I don't think there is a global solution (meaning, one that will solve the problem for americans at large). I do think there are a few things non-wealthy individuals can do to improve their lot in life.

One is to learn a skilled trade that can't be offshored.

Another is to go to work for the government. As the article i cited earlier indicates, "in the united states, the average federal worker now earns 60% more than the average worker in the private sector." hey, might as well ride the gravy train while you can!

The above solutions assume one wants to achieve the traditional american dream -- the suburban home, two chickens in every pot, two cars in every garage. A third solution involves chucking that dream, which will become increasingly unattainable anyhow, and acquiring the skills and ability to live a subsistence lifestyle, making or growing what one needs to survive. This is where, as i said earlier, homesteaders have a leg up.

no, that's not a good solution.

The good solution is to buy american.

The good solution is to buy quality products and not junk/disposible goods from overseas (ie. China).

The good solution is to encourage frugality and efficiency.

The good solution is to make and then sell your american products to american consumers in "co-ops" and dispose of the old "go-it-alone" business notion.

The good solution is to subsidize american entreprenuers and not subsidize walmart.

The good solution is to realize that the liberal agenda and the republican agenda are causing this condition, intentionally, and to vote and voice against it.

And yes, each of us are the problem because most people really don't believe, deep down, that they are no longer "middle class".

willow_girl · #72 07/31/10, 12:35 AM

Stann, I like the way you think.

bowdonkey · #73 07/31/10, 07:33 AM

You're totally right Stann. You too willow and christy!

pancho · #74 07/31/10, 10:13 AM

This is just my opinion.
One of the things that doom the middle class is lack of planning. Young people fail to plan on a future. Most of the ones who have some plan for the future and jobs will do good. Some will always choose some sort of nonsense like basketweaving for a future then complain how no one will hire them even though they have a masters degree in basketweaving.

Many of the young people will coast into the future. They don't plan for the future but just go along with what the future provides for them. They take a job they really have little interest in and get stuck in it or a similiar job. A few will be lucky and land in a job with a future, like I did. Just plain blind luck I have a job now as I was one of those who coasted into the future. I was lucky. So many are not lucky and are stuck in a job with no future, a job they don't like, and a job that just about anyone can do with little training.
With that kind of a job it is easy to fall below middle class.

willow_girl · #75 07/31/10, 10:38 AM

Pancho,

A few years ago, a study was done on young single mothers on welfare. The results revealed that most of these girls had not been straight-A, Harvard-bound students before their lives were derailed by an unplanned pregnancy. Rather, the girls had already been in trouble even before they became pregnant. They were girls who struggled academically, came from broken homes, had emotional or behavioral issues. The pregnancies were not so much the cause of their problems so much as effects.

I really think public schools should make kids draft a plan for their future and work toward it. Maybe start in their freshman year and require them to meet periodically with a guidance counselor to demonstrate the steps they're taking. I was one of those kids who drifted, too, and I paid a high price for it. In some regards, I'm still paying, I guess.

A little adult intervention would be an added plus for the kids who already have parental support, and a godsend for the ones who don't have a concerned family member to help them.

ChristyACB · #76 07/31/10, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stann

no, that's not a good solution.

The good solution is to buy american.

The good solution is to buy quality products and not junk/disposible goods from overseas (ie. China).

The good solution is to encourage frugality and efficiency.

The good solution is to make and then sell your american products to american consumers in "co-ops" and dispose of the old "go-it-alone" business notion.

The good solution is to subsidize american entreprenuers and not subsidize walmart.

The good solution is to realize that the liberal agenda and the republican agenda are causing this condition, intentionally, and to vote and voice against it.

And yes, each of us are the problem because most people really don't believe, deep down, that they are no longer "middle class".

Bravo and Amen!

ChristyACB · #77 07/31/10, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow_girl

Pancho,

A few years ago, a study was done on young single mothers on welfare. The results revealed that most of these girls had not been straight-A, Harvard-bound students before their lives were derailed by an unplanned pregnancy. Rather, the girls had already been in trouble even before they became pregnant. They were girls who struggled academically, came from broken homes, had emotional or behavioral issues. The pregnancies were not so much the cause of their problems so much as effects.

I think really think public schools should make kids draft a plan for their future and work toward it. Maybe start in their freshman year and require them to meet periodically with a guidance counselor to demonstrate the steps they're taking. I was one of those kids who drifted, too, and I paid a high price for it. In some regards, I'm still paying, I guess.

A little adult intervention would be an added plus for the kids who already have parental support, and a godsend for the ones who don't have a concerned family member to help them.

Actually, that isn't a bad idea at all.

For most of human recorded history people knew from the get go what they would be. Maybe follow a parent into a trade, perhaps be apprenticed to another trade the family needed, perhaps as a third son be given to the church...whatever. But most people had a very good idea and that is what they worked toward.

We have lost that though I think for a good cause. The idea that everyone should be able to go the direction of their personal talents and aspirations.

The side effect is the bad part. We leave people flopping in the wind trying to discover who they are and what they should do and many cover up not finding by simply being drifters forever.

So making up a life plan, or at least the shell of it and understanding the reasons for the steps they can choose is a pretty awesome idea. Start small in earliest grades and build on it through to a full plan by high school.

ChristyACB · #78 07/31/10, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher

Ok then lets make the law the same for both women, if a woman gets drunk and drives you MUST let her go free because she was too drunk to say no to driving. Sound like a plan to you? Of course you have to allow males to drive drunk as well because if a woman can be too drunk to say no to driving then surely a man can as well. The point is the law should be EQUALLY APPLIED AT ALL TIMES TO ALL PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!

You get it now?

Okay..no shades of gray. You accidentally hit someone while driving it's first degree murder the same as if you'd stalked, planned and executed them.

No?

Okay..then stalking, planning and killing should be counted the same as just accidentally killing them in a car accident. Accident only. Nothing more.

No?

Heck, you mean to say there are shades of grey? Like Intent?

Ahhh..intent. Well, now there's a boneheaded idea for you! You grab your keys and drive to the bar with the intent of having a drink and you haven't made a plan for those keys and you intend to drive home then you are a big old deserving DUI waiting to happen.

There is never an excuse, short of finding immediate medical help for an emergency or to escape from physical danger...for driving drunk.

However, getting raped doesn't seem to fall under there. The fact that YOU said "having sex" is just disgusting and revolting. A woman wakes up after getting rohypnal (sp?) in a drink with clear evidence is already going to have to face an amoral lawyer who'll paint her as a willing harlot. People like you are why they keep doing it. They hope and pray to their devil god that one evil schmuck who secretly hates Mommy is on that jury.

watcher · #79 07/31/10, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow_girl

Watcher, just a WAG, but you really don't like women very much, do you?

Your contempt oozes from every line. Frankly, it's kind of icky!

You are correct my post on this are full of contempt but you are incorrect about the target of the contempt. Its not women but the injustice in the laws.

FYI, I like women a lot, I'm married to a very good one who most feminist types would point out as a great example (except for the whole marrying a man thing). Strong, independent and has proven she can do "a man's job" (military officer in a high speed-low drag unit, truck driver etc). I've raised a daughter who is just as strong and independent.

If you would read the rest of this post then go back and read my others with what I say here in your mind.

I don't like unfairness/injustice and can not stand it when unfairness is incorporated into the law of the land which is supposed to treat each individual equally and be consistent.

I use the two examples, abortion and drunk rape, because they are PREFECT examples of how the laws today are not equally applied. In each case you have the same thing happening yet the out comes are completely opposite. If the law says a drunk person can not be held legally accountable for some decisions, such as signing a contract or having sex, then a drunk person should not be held legally accountable for ALL decisions. A person under the influence of alcohol either has the reasoning ability to make an informed decision or he does not, the law should not get to pick and choose which decisions he's too drunk to make. Do you disagree?

Lady Justice is supposed to be blind. It is not supposed to peek out from under the blindfold to see which way the political wind is blowing then put her thumb on the scales to make it tip one way or the other. The thought of this happening angers and frightens me. Today we lock up "sexual predators" after they have served the time the law has set for their crime. If you want to keep them in prison for life, fine change the criminal code not do an end run around the rule of law. Who are we going to keep locked up tomorrow? What will be the crime of the week next month where we must keep those criminals locked up forever w/o changing the laws? What about next year?

watcher · #80 07/31/10, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristyACB

Okay..no shades of gray. You accidentally hit someone while driving it's first degree murder the same as if you'd stalked, planned and executed them.

No?

Okay..then stalking, planning and killing should be counted the same as just accidentally killing them in a car accident. Accident only. Nothing more.

No?

Heck, you mean to say there are shades of grey? Like Intent?

Ahhh..intent. Well, now there's a boneheaded idea for you! You grab your keys and drive to the bar with the intent of having a drink and you haven't made a plan for those keys and you intend to drive home then you are a big old deserving DUI waiting to happen.

There is never an excuse, short of finding immediate medical help for an emergency or to escape from physical danger...for driving drunk.

However, getting raped doesn't seem to fall under there. The fact that YOU said "having sex" is just disgusting and revolting. A woman wakes up after getting rohypnal (sp?) in a drink with clear evidence is already going to have to face an amoral lawyer who'll paint her as a willing harlot. People like you are why they keep doing it. They hope and pray to their devil god that one evil schmuck who secretly hates Mommy is on that jury.

Tell you what, take a second. Take a deep breath. Now get over your hang up between real rape and what I'm talking about. There is a MAJOR difference in someone putting drugs in a drink and raping a woman and a guy who goes to a party and has sex with a woman who WILLING came to the party, who WILLING drunk alcohol and who WILLING went out to the car and who WILLING gave consent to have sex.

Yet under the law the guy who had sex with her could be charge with rape because even though the woman did all those actions of her own accord with no threats, no coercions, no drugs given to her unknowingly was incapable to make an informed decision to have sex. IOW, she can not be held responsible for her actions because of diminished mental capacity due to the alcohol.

Have that very same woman with those very same set of circumstances and have her get in the car, drive off and get caught and things are different. Now she is arrested and charged with DUI. IOW, even though she's drunk the law holds that she should have had the mental capacity to know she was too drunk to drive.

Now please explain to me: One, how that even begins to compare to your hoopla above? Two, how can you have the same evidence view two different ways in a court of law?

How would you like to be sued and the rules of evidence for you were different than the rules of evidence the person suing you? Sound like a fair justice system?

All I'm saying is you can't have laws which are different in different cases based on how it makes people "feel". Once that gets ingrained our system of blind justice is GONE because justice will lean which every way it "feels" and not be justice.