The disappearing middle class

I say, free, really FREEE education for anyone who wants, it, as far as they want to go, as long as they keep good grades. Bad grades = tuition. Limit spaces in classes by the projected job market. If there is not a market for Lib Arts majors, don't grind them out by the hundreds of thousands. People will choose free education courses from what is available. If they want a major with poor job prospects, they will have to pay for the priveledge. A lot.

Then, mandatory drug testing monthly for ALL welfare recipients, of any age, or say, five years and older. If one member of a family unit tests positive, the family is denied benefits for ninety days. I think that would incentivize parents to know/monitor/manage what their kids were doing, where they are going, who they hung out with. Mandatory Norplant for any woman of sexual maturity, onset of menstruation, on public assistance. Mandatory chemical sterilization for any man who has even one kid on public assistance until that kid, or all those kids are all off public assistance. Work farms for people who can't/won't support their families. Slavery? Perhaps. They enslaved themselves when they concieved a child. I understand times are tough. Why should I, single white female pay for the hordes of kids on the dole?

I love the irony ... well, no I don't.

In this thread, among other issues, we mention jobs going overseas.

Elsewhere on HT there is a thread for a cheap source to get a commonly used item. Naturally the item is made in China, says so right in the thread, and folks are so happy to be saving money.

Sometimes we don't get a choice where to buy, but sometimes we do get a choice and we choose the one that hurts us.

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- Dave

Sure. He's to blame, and if society allows him to make a better living by stealing than by working (for instance, if law enforcement is lax or corrupt), then society is guilty of aiding and abetting.

Fine; we're agreed on that one.

If society compels the mother to give birth against her wishes, does society have a responsibility to care for the resulting child until it is able to take care of itself? Now there's a sticky wicket for ya!

I say if a woman doesn't think her child should be born, well, she's more cognizant of her personal situation than I am, and better equipped to make those kinds of decisions.

True enough. I hear some of the Pacific Rim workers also are clamoring for better working conditions. Good for them, I say.

OK, we agree again. Elsewhere, I said if we're going to get out of the jam we're in, it will be by invention and innovation.

Well, everyone wants their kid to be exceptional nowadays! We can't let some of the little darlings fail, now, can we? [/sarcasm]

Wow, your boss must really love you! I mean, you apparently work tirelessly and diligently with no need for rewards. No yearend raise, no performance bonus -- I mean, those things aren't necessary, right? You're content just to do the right thing, day in and day out. I'm surprised they even have to give you a paycheck! Or maybe they don't actually give it to you; they just promise you'll get one eventually, if you keep working hard.

(Of course, we know that's not how human nature operates!)

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"I love all of this mud," said no one, ever.

So society is to blame for people who find it easier to steal than to work. Hum, I had never thought about that. I guess poor Bernie Madoff is just a victim of our society because it was easier to steal than to actually work. BTW, it has always been easier to steal from others than work.


You know not getting pregnant when you know you can't raise a child is very easy. You can either not screw around or use one of the many birth control methods which are around 99% effective. If your BC fails then there are many, many people willing to adopt. Another example of how most people's problems are brought about by their own actions.


Only if the mother can not or will not do it. At which point the child should be removed from that mother and placed with someone which can and will take care of it. If a person has a dog and doesn't care for it do we give that person dog food and money to care for the dog or do we remove the dog from the home and place it with someone who will care for it? Shouldn't we treat a child better than we would a dog?


So if a woman thinks her child should be killed its up to her. Let's see if after six months of trying a woman decides her downs child is just too much trouble she should be able to just kill it. Is that what you are saying? After all she is "she's more cognizant of her personal situation than I am, and better equipped to make those kinds of decisions."


We seem to be in line on most things.


I give a days work for a days pay. I expect no more and ask for no less. Do you?

If a company has a program which gives a bonus I expect it to be a bonus for doing more than my job. Example, if I hire someone to dig a ditch and I tell them I will pay them $500 to do it. I'm not going to pay them $700 for digging it just because they have dug ditches for me before. But OTOH if I really want the ditch dug I can tell them if they finish in a set period of time I will pay them a BONUS of $200. They can dig it how they want and make $500 or they can put in some extra work and make $700. Their choice.

If I'm content to do the work he ask of me for the amount of money he is paying why should my boss offer me a raise?

When I think I'm worth more money I ask for it. If he agrees he'll pay, if not he will not. If he doesn't give me a raise I have two choices. I can stay or leave. Its that individual freedom thing. I have the ability to work where I want for what pay I can get.

Oh yeah, I don't work for a boss. Unless you count the wife :O

__________________
Remember, when seconds count. . .
the police are just MINUTES away!

Congress has no power to appropriate this money as an act of charity. Every member upon this floor knows it. . .Davy Crockett

Oh yeah, I don't work for a boss. Unless you count the wife :O
__________________ Watcher i an't putting my dog in that race

Re: begging on the streets. This has been bothering me for several months. But it opens so many doors to bad feelings I didn't mention it.
A few months ago, I saw three women on the corner- one was holdng a sign say "Pregnanat and hungry- Please help." The other two were siiting on the curb. Each of these women was seriously, seriously overweight- easily a hundred pounds overweight. Each was well dressed and their hair was dressed.
I watched a person give them money but passed them by.
I told myself that it is possible to be fat and hungry at least in the immediate term. But I live in a state that pays benefits to pregnant women, they were four blocks from a free food pantry, and did not ask for food.
Ever since I stood behind a man at a fast food place who I had just seen begging at the mall enterance and listen to him telling his friend that he made just $60 for a couple of hours of "work" than morning with the wording on his cardboard sign, I have not given money to a beggar. Of course the fast food place had a sign about current hiring, but the pay is certainly much less than begging.
I truly believe that children are trotted out in most cases to increase the take based on the feeling many people have helping children. What are these people teaching their children?

re: begging

Unless you can really identify a need and a good way to address it, I'm not inclined to respond to begging. I'd rather donate to a food pantry or some charity that has a good record

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- Dave

Heh. I've seen panhandlers do a shift-change at an intersection in Houston. They each wore/had backpacks and simply handed off the cardboard sign to their replacement. It was like watching a relay race. I happened to look over at the person in the car next to us and we both just shook our heads and rolled our eyes.

I've known hunger before and feeding the needy is where I focus my charitable giving. But our money is too hard gained (and there's precious little of it) for me to pay someone to stand on a street corner & hold a sign for a living. I also know that there are too many charities/churches who serve the hungry for anyone to truly go hungry.

There's another forum where its SWMBO; She Who Must Be Obeyed. But let us not turn this into a wife thread If we do then momma won't be happy and we all know if momma ain't happy ain't NOBODY happy. Uh-oh!

__________________
Remember, when seconds count. . .
the police are just MINUTES away!

Congress has no power to appropriate this money as an act of charity. Every member upon this floor knows it. . .Davy Crockett

No, that's not what I said. Read it again. The person who steals is to blame, but if society makes it easy for him, it's guilty of aiding and abetting. (Separate crime, if you will.)

No, he's a thief, and he's paying for his crime. Hopefully some laws were passed that shut the barn door after that particular horse got out.

I don't think so; or at least, not when the likely consequences are taken into account. My husband once told me that when he came back from 'Nam, he was crazier than a junebug. He wanted to rob a bank and take the money and flee to South America or something; anyplace where he didn't have to deal with people. The thing that stayed his hand was his fear of getting caught and placed in a cell somewhere with Bubba, if you know what I mean.

I doubt there's much theft in those countries where they lop off a hand.

It sounds so logical, and yet people really STINK at not making babies! I consider myself a fairly intelligent individual, and even I had an unplanned pregnancy once, many years ago. In later years, I've slept with a number of men who were very intelligent, but did not pause to consider the birth control angle until after the deed was done. (Luckily, by then, I had things covered. But if I hadn't?!) Oftentimes, people are just really dumb when it comes to sex. This is not excusing their behavior or mine; it's just the way it is, strangely enough.

Well, again we agree. Of course, when you start talking about taking peoples' kids away, once again, you step on lots of toes, liberal and conservative alike. One person's "proper care" may well be another's "frightful neglect." The necessity of things like indoor plumbing is debatable, and not everyone is going to be happy with the arrived-upon standard.

I believe some philosophers have attempted to build a case for this position, but society at present seems to have drawn the line at birth. That's a pretty wise choice, AFAIC.

Surprisingly, isn't it? I bet you never realized you were a flaming liberal! (Which is what I'm generally accused of being.)

Yup, but I'm not likely to stick around unless there's opportunity for advancement, unless I really like the job for some reason. (I really like milking cows.) I've forgotten what the point of this last argument was, though, and it's late and I'm tired so I'm not going to look it up.

BTW, it's a wise husband who recognizes who's the boss.

__________________
"I love all of this mud," said no one, ever.

People are really dumb when it comes to driving but if they get caught they have to pay a fine don't they?

I raised my kids and tell the people I counsel that there are consequences for your actions. Women don't get pregnant by accident. There is a 100% sure birth control and very, very, very simple; don't have sex. Every other BC measure has a failure rate, this means every time you have sex you can get pregnant. If you take the chance then you have to fact the consequences. If men and women were forced to face these consequences then, just like the possible criminals you talked about but I edited out, they would think three or four times before they 'did the deed'.

But now there are no consequences for it. You get pregnant and can't care for the child the government will take care of you. There are now child care centers in schools for crying out loud. A single pregnant woman used to be looked at with scorn now she's held up as brave or strong. No one thinks about what kind of life a kid of a single mother lives. Study after study shows that a boy w/o a strong male role model in the family stands a much greater chance of having problems later in life. I can tell you I have dealt with very few young people with major problems who had a mother and father who had been involved with them their entire lives.

I can tell you a lot of the young women who have a history of picking losers for boyfriends/husbands come from families were there is no father in the home.


To me its simple. Are the kids clean? You don't have to bathe everyday but if a kid has BO or shows up to school a couple of days a week with a dirty fact there's a problem. Is their cloths clean? Again you don't have to wash clothes every day but is their shirt has the same stain on it for a week then there's a problem. Are the kids feed? Do they have a mouth full of cavities?

I've seen homeless people who knew how to take care of their kids needs. It has very little to do with it.


There is a legal problem. If you beat a pregnant woman and cause an abortion you can be charged with murder. This means the court legally sees the child as a human, you can only be charged with murder for killing a human. Yet if the woman decides she doesn't want the child she can have it killed because the court does not view it as a human. I'm waiting for someone charge with the murder of an unborn child to take their case to the USSC based on the fact the government can not have it both ways. This, IMO, will be the next big abortion issue case.

But the moral issue still stands. No one can say just when a child becomes a child, therefore should we not err on the side of life?


Actually you should now realize you are a right wing Nazi, which I have been accused of.


Hey, I get the last words in every argument we have. Yes, dear.

__________________
Remember, when seconds count. . .
the police are just MINUTES away!

Congress has no power to appropriate this money as an act of charity. Every member upon this floor knows it. . .Davy Crockett

We are in "PLayer Piano" by Kurt Vonnegut

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Roger

Excellent point, Watcher. That had never occurred to me but you're absolutely right.

This reminds me of a question I have asked my friends.

A woman is driving down the road going to an abortion clinic to have an abortion. Her car is hit by another driver and the unborn child is killed. The other person is charges with vehicular homocide.
How can this be?

Liberal hypocrisy?

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Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain
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Enforced tolerance is oppression

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Now that's funny!

It's late, so this will be short, but I agree the law is ambiguous when it comes to abortion vs. fetal homicide. Off the cuff, it would seem to me that there should be no additional penalty for killing the fetus, in that a fetus ordinarily is not considered a person with legal standing. I can understand how people could be outraged by a crime that terminates a 'wanted' pregnancy, though, which is probably how we arrived at the laws we have. I expect there will be a court challenge to those laws eventually.

Yeah, it sounds so simple, doesn't it? Yet it seems people are really, really lousy at NOT having sex! And I've noticed that policies that are based on how people SHOULD behave, rather than how they actually DO behave, never seem to work very well.

Keep in mind that we've only been able to reliably prevent pregnancy for a couple generations now. I'm not sure our species has had time to work out all the ramifications. Certain (possibly outdated) notions about life and family still undergird our society.

For instance, 25 years ago, when I was newly married, it was commonly assumed that my husband and I would immediately embark upon starting a family. Quite a bit of pressure was applied to me from peers and older female relatives (particularly my mother) to get busy making babies!

Even at the time, being 18 and frequently drunk, I sensed that this was a spectacularly bad idea. My husband and I had minimum-wage jobs, no savings, a car that only ran about half the time, and problems with substance abuse. Yet virtually all the people around us (and these were not dysfunctional people, amazingly) thought it would be the greatest thing in the world for us to have a kid!

I wish I'd had the presence of mind at the time to ask some of them *why* they thought it was a good idea! (Certainly, in my mother's case, she wanted a grandchild, plain and simple, and I was her only shot at such. Whether the situation would have been good for me, or for the child, perhaps never entered the equation.) This always has been one of life's mysteries to me. The most plausible explanation I can find for this expectation is that for thousands of years, getting married and making babies was simply the natural progression of events, so even though other options were available (and in my case, advisable) in 1985, it simply didn't occur to most people to exercise them.

I'm not sure if young women today are burdened by the same expectations; I hope not.

(OK, this is wayyyy longer than I'd intended!)

__________________
"I love all of this mud," said no one, ever.

Here's another one for you. A woman goes out to a bar, gets drunk and meets a guy. They go out to a car and have sex. The man can be charged with rape because the alcohol so impaired the woman's judgment she was legally incapable of deciding to have sex.

But if they have a fight on the way to the car and the woman gets in her car and drives off, she can be arrested for DUI because she should have been able to judge she was unfit to drive.

Now how can it be ruled she was not legally responsible for her actions in the first case but she was in the second case?

__________________
Remember, when seconds count. . .
the police are just MINUTES away!

Congress has no power to appropriate this money as an act of charity. Every member upon this floor knows it. . .Davy Crockett

It sounds simple because it is. If you hold people responsible for their actions most, not all, people will think before acting.

If you tell a 15 y.o. girl that if she goes out and screws around and gets pregnant she will be kicked out of school until she has the kid, she will not receive government help to raise her child and if she can not raise it it will be taken from her and she will be expected to pay child support for the 18 years it takes for that child to become an adult a large number of them are going to keep their knees together.

Also if you tell the parents of 15 year old kids if their kid has or makes a child and their child is not able to take care of their grandchild THEY will either have to step up and raise the child with no government assistance and/or will be paying child support for the 18 years.

When I was young I didn't do a lot of things my friends did because I knew if I got caught my dad wouldn't come to my rescue. My kids have told me the same thing. When you put a safety net under the tightrope a lot more people are willing to take the chance of walking it.

__________________
Remember, when seconds count. . .
the police are just MINUTES away!

Congress has no power to appropriate this money as an act of charity. Every member upon this floor knows it. . .Davy Crockett

Instead of rewarding welfare receipients having babies maybe we should be paying them not to have babies.

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"Do you believe in the devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption, and destruction of man?" Hobbs
"I'm not sure that man needs the help." Calvin

Maybe we should not pay them at all, then they would have some incentive to make it on their own.

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ