The disappearing middle class

Watcher, I am beginning to think you are right about what is happening, what has happened, and what will happen.
Well I have thought much of the same for a while but not many people want to hear it. Maybe some day more people will stop and listen.

So the government really socks it to the "rich", how does that help the "poor"?
The rich aren't stealing their jobs, the rich create jobs.
The government wants to raise taxes on the wealthy and the corporations, how is that going to help the unemployed find a job?
The government taking more of the money, more of the control is never a good idea.

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Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain
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Enforced tolerance is oppression

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

what jobs have the rich created in the last ten years ??
Oh and by that I mean in this country we all know they have created a few million in china and mexico while they put American workers in the unemployment line .
lets see ford shipped 43,000 out in one day, Chevy moved twenty some thousand out, heck around here the wheel plat and brake plant were moved to mexico. Over a million Americans were put out of work by the rich so they could bump their profit margine, and sure they hired a million chinese or mexicans to fill the jobs but I sure havent seen any of the rich doing any major hiring or factory building here in the states .
so where exactly are they jobs the rich are creating other than in other countries , there over a million Hard working americans asking that question.\
I suppose it the workers fault for not living in china

Come on down to Ms. Several auto manufacturing plants have opened in the last 10 years. Another is being built now.
This isn't ford or gm though. Toyota and nissan seem to be leading the pack.

The point was that competition is not possible if the government demands worker's comp insurance, social security tax, health care tax, fees for using the roads, fees for not using the road- state, local, county, and city tax, sales tax, inspections for everything and fees charged to pay for those inspections, environmental rules, etc etc etc.
If the government decide these are needed, the good but the cost of those things need to be applied to import.
Rah rah but I don't want to live in desperate poverty- if that means fighting with each other then put up your dukes.

there is always a happy medium! though those on either end of the spectrum will not agree!
need to do away with laws that discourage the little guy and encourage the big guy!

these are not all federal either! state and municiple are big discouragers!

hey I'm sure if some one made sure the laws locked me into profit well I would not cry about it! but there are few that get included in that!

what happened to "buyer beware" even with all the "consumer protection laws" --- common.

seems only the rip off artists thrive in this system.

yes and they are owned by japnese not Americans , so the tax cuts for the rich wouldnt exactly apply would they unless of course those cuts were made in japan.
BTW I dont believe they employ 200,000 which is what the US auto industry put out of work and shipped out .
Nice try but a clean miss

There are many people who go through life with their hand out. After all haven't they been told repreatedly from birth that they have the right to whatever they need. So put them out in the street........
But before you do that, make sure there are jobs for everyone's capacity. Some are not strictly needed but will provide service and a better life for all.
But in truth,too many people stood by while American jobs were not defended. I can remember a time when as a school child I was out (OK hooky) during work hours and hardly anyone was on the street. They were working.
I can't think that, if work was held in great regard again and productive citizens were the ideal, there wouldn't be enough people to fill jobs. We need to stop idolizing drug addicted music stars, stop letting social workers (and college professors,) define our duty to the human race, and stop letting Congress get rich on lobbyist money while salving their consciences's with petty cash to the lastest good cause.

I have seen this coming since the 1960's. When a person wants more than they can afford they demand more money and when they get it the prices of everything goes up because somewhere in the system the difference has to be made up. Today it is still going on. If I can live on $X a month and put anything away I would be happy but as it is $X might get you by but everyone wants more. Where is more coming from? When I was younger I worked 12 to 18 hrs a day and wish I could do it now. At this time I would guess that if it could be figured out the people back in the sixtys were making more than today because of the value of our dollar and the prise of goods today. I hope this has made sense to you as I tried to explain it as I see it. I have no idea how to bring jobs back except to start all over. sam

Isn't the truth that the fault is at both ends of the spectrum?

And what is poor?

In this country, we've gotten to where people claim poverty when they wear hundreds of dollars in designer clothes with a closet full of the latest styles of athlete endorsed shoes, lcd tvs in every room and a car that's newer and more expensive than the average annual salary of Americans. Something is wrong with that.

We have to face certain human facts. Not everyone is born talented and brilliant. Not everyone has a supportive family that wants them to learn. Not everyone has a family that is going to prepare them for school and hold them accountable while going there. Not everyone has the desire to spend 8 years in post high-school education. Not everyone has the work ethic that is really truly needed to "get ahead" and rise to the top in a competitive world.

All that means one thing.

There will be those that have even if they start with nothing.
There will be those who have because they were born with it.
There will be those who have nothing even if they were born with everything.
There will be some who fail.
There will be some who succeed.
There will be poor, there will be comfortable and there will be rich.

The costs of transportation are going up and someday it may become economically feasible to bring many jobs back to the US, but not so long as the unions and talking TV heads convince people that the lowest levels of work deserve pay and benefits that equate to much pre-work effort and outlay.

Poor, less than rich and not quite middle class are not the same as poverty. Poor here is an overused word that just extorts money from tax payers in order to fund those who don't actually understand what poverty is (though there are always some who truly need and wisely use the help, they prove the rule).

We have much work to do in this country:
1) Test for assistance.
2) Establish "healthy" food requirements and limits on the EBT so that it can't be used to fund elaborate bbqs or fancy birthdays.
3) Ensure that people understand they become wards of the state when they are supported by the state and will be worked for that funding.
4) Add an excise tax to any good or service that is sold from overseas.
5) Ban unions and utilize the Department of Labor (that was set up to do exactly what unions were supposedly set up to do) to ensure labor is not abused.
6) If unions are specifically banned or make illegal, they should be legally curtailed in what they can do with respect to collective bargaining and use of dues.
7) Change bankruptcy laws to ensure that it isn't a cake walk and that there are always paybacks required.
8) Ditch all this extra feel good garbage in public schools, since we can't realistically get rid of them, make them what they are: The place to send kids whose parents can't send them someplace else to get an education. If they don't do the work, they fail. If they act up in school, they get kicked out and fail. If they are criminals, then they lose the privilege of going there.
9) Along with making school right again, also use the money saved on all the federal garbage and keep them open till 6 p.m. for kids to do homework, play and get tutored while their parents work.
10) Restructure taxation to the Fair Tax.
11) Use excise taxes for their intended purpose, not as a way to punish unpopular habits or reward big donors.

There's more, of course, but those are off the top of my head.

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Christy
Growing Human
http://growinghuman.blogspot.com

When wearing narrow lenses of hate and ignorance, is it any wonder one finds it difficult to see clearly? - Me

I haven't seen middle class in...well, forever. Funny though, I don't feel poor.

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It's not that I don't like mankind, I just like nature a whole lot more.

http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/four-...39735?FIELD9=3

(Four Shocking Bombshells Bernanke Did Not Tell Congress About)

Lets see, I answered your question.

Question--What jobs have the rich created in the last 10 years.
Answer--Several auto manufacturing plants have opened in Ms.
Question--Oh and I mean by that in this country.
Answer--As far as I know Ms. is still part of this country.
Question--So where are these jobs the rich have created other than in other countries.
Answer--See above answer.

You asked a few questions and I gave a few answers. Don't remember seeing any questions concerning tax cuts in your post.
Don't know what I clean missed.

Now can I ask a couple of questions?
Are you complaining about plants opening up in the U.S?
I thought you were complaining about jobs leaving the U.S.
Are you complaining about U.S. companies leaving the U.S or are you complaining about foreign companies opening up plants in the U.S?
I can't keep up with what you are complaining about but it looks like it doesn't have much to do with working people or jobs.

I don't think work is held in great regard. I don't think productive citizens are the ideal. Just not much call for those things, until it comes time to pay the bill. Then these productive citizens are told they have no choice, others need their hard earned money more than they do and, just so happens, other people know much better than them how to manage their money.

Keep drinking that Obama koolaid.
The people Obama seeks to destroy are the rich, the middle class, the small businessman, and the simple minded and chronically unemployed believe he's gonna hand them big buckets of money and high paying executive jobs they aren't qualified for.
So far, all your Obama has done is put us deeper in debt and raise unemployment, all the while lying through his teeth.
Get a grip, the poor aren't going to give you a paycheck and Obama isn't going to buy us out of this hole.
We have to encourage business, not tax them out of the country.
But then, you'll just blame someone else like usual.

__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain
______________________________________________

Enforced tolerance is oppression

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

He's just upset because the only way to defend Obama is to change the subject and attack something totally unrelated.

__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
Mark Twain
______________________________________________

Enforced tolerance is oppression

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

If that's the case, can you really blame the person for making a better living by staying on welfare? I generally do things that make my life better -- don't you?

OTOH, I don't have a problem with changing the rules. I'm not crazy about seeing kids begging in the streets, though. Since most people qualify for welfare by having children, why don't we encourage the poor NOT to have children, instead of rewarding them, as we do now? Let's start by subsidizing birth control and paying for abortions, which is a lot cheaper than paying for 18 years of assistance. Do you think the government would spend more money or less if it said, "Birth control's on us, but if you choose to have a kid, you have to support it yourself"? In another thread, I proposed offering women a modest payment for surrendering their children for adoption at birth, before they're damaged by abuse or neglect. Let's quit trying to "reunite families" and terminate the parental rights of addicts, etc., who can't clean up their acts. Maybe give them one shot at treatment; if they relapse, it's bye-bye kiddos. Get down to brass tacks, and the mooching could be virtually eliminated in a generation.

Of course, my plan offends everyone -- the bleeding-heart liberals don't want to see children ripped away from their parents, and the conservatives would kick at subsidizing abortions. A lot of people would rather complain about the problem than do something practical, albeit unpleasant, to solve it.

Businesses shortly will be facing an interesting problem. They believed they could move their factories overseas to save a buck, yet continue to sell merchandise to the American people. This has worked for a while, because there is a great deal of residual wealth in America. It won't work forever, though.

So what's your solution? You want to work in a sweatshop 12 hours a day for $1 an hour and live in a one-room shack with no lights or running water? Get sick or hurt because of unsafe working conditions? When Americans are willing to live and work under Third World conditions, why, those jobs will come back from the Third World. Don't tell me we'll be better for it, though.

When people don't see much opportunity to better their situation, there is little incentive to get an education, delay or prevent childbearing, or abstain from substance abuse.

Life has been getting progressively harder for the uneducated working class over the last 50 years. The days when a young man could graduate from high school, get a job, and support a wife and family are pretty much over. When the family system breaks down, society begins to break down. This has been going on for awhile now, to the point where we're seeing people and entire communities so dysfunctional that they would be unable to embrace opportunities even if such were presented to them.

This is not excusing bad behavior; it's just the way human nature works. If there is no intrinsic reward for being 'good' -- for getting an education, abstaining from drugs, delaying childbearing -- why, most people won't bother.

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"I love all of this mud," said no one, ever.

I don't know if the people are ready for what they will have to do sometime in the future. Everything you talk about will have to be implemented in the future. We can't continue doing the same things the same way we have been doing. It is soon going to be time for people to understand not everyone should have children. Children have to be provided for and it isn't the job of others to provide for the children of a certain group. Especially large numbers of children.

Yes, because they are leaching off the work of others. Can you blame the guy who breaks into your home and steals your stuff because he can make a better living doing that?


If you have kids and can't or won't care for them then society has the responsibility and right to remove those kids until you can prove yourself. If you don't do that in a set period of time the kids should be permanently removed from you. Harsh? Yes but so is life.


Mainly because conservatives view life differently. As someone once said if you can not be sure just when life starts should you not err on the side of life?


No, what will happen, and is already happening, is because of the money they are now making the workers in the overseas factories will start to be able to afford the things other factories make. This will mean the factories will be less and less dependent on exporting their goods and the quality of life will go up. You can not remain a great nation in today's era by being a nation of unskilled workers because there will always be a nation somewhere with a lower standard of living where the workers can live on less.


If a nation wants to be great and stay that way it needs to have the most educated and skilled workers who can not be quickly and easily replaced. Think about it, how hard is it to replace a factory/assembly line worker? How difficult is it to train them "Take part A out of the bin, place it on part B and tighten."? Now how long does it take to train someone to write software or research a new antibiotic?


Which is why our current system of welfare is killing us as a nation.


You must ask yourself why that is. I see the main reason as being we have weakened our education system to the point most people graduate high school with less education than most 8th graders did years ago. I have a good example, just last night I was talking to a group of young people (20 somethings) and said something about getting hurt playing William Tell. NONE of these people knew what I was talking about.


Sorry but you have it wrong. If you reward someone for doing the right thing then they come to expect to be rewarded and expect the rewards to get bigger and if there is no reward they don't see any reason to do the right thing. I have seen this happen many times. People "reward" their kids for getting good grades or for doing what I consider required chores. At some point the kids either demand a bigger reward or just decide the reward isn't worth the effort.

What you do is you either punish people or let life punish people for doing the wrong thing. After a while they do the right thing because doing the wrong thing sucks.

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Remember, when seconds count. . .
the police are just MINUTES away!

Congress has no power to appropriate this money as an act of charity. Every member upon this floor knows it. . .Davy Crockett

Part of the problem is that society tends to interject morality into what really is a practical problem. Instead of teaching our daughters how not to get pregnant, and shaming the ones who are inept in preventing pregnancy, we shame the ones who rationally plan to have sex and obtain birth control in preparation for it. Parents who did not "wait 'til marriage" by a long shot expect their kids to be different and better than they were. Generally it doesn't happen.

We hold up the family as a sacred institution and pussyfoot around about terminating parental rights even after parents have failed time and time again. Can't provide for your kids? Fine; we'll give them to someone who can. I suspect most parents would find means to provide if the alternative was to lose their kids, and the ones who would sooner lose their children probably are lousy parents anyway.

We express horror at our tax dollars being used to pay for contraceptives or abortions when these are much cheaper than subsidizing children born to parents who are not equipped to raise them.

The conservative answer is to demand that people stop having sex, especially irresponsibly, but that isn't going to happen. Children were born in Auschwitz, fer cryin' out loud! Our policies in recent years have focused on preventing sex (teen abstinence, etc.) then caring, almost in perpetuity, for the offspring resulting from those failed policies.

We can continue to provide for the children born to inadequate parents, or we can abandon those children to their fate, let them suffer and beg on the streets as Third World kids do. Or we can take the pragmatic approach of discouraging people from making babies they can't feed. But that would require acknowledging how people actually behave and what motivates them -- not how they SHOULD behave and what they SHOULD do.

Mind you, we won't eliminate all shiftlessness in society. That's never been done. Look back through history, and you'll find almshouses, workhouses, poorhouses, orphanages and mental institutions (whose denizens often weren't 'insane' so much as they were simply dysfunctional, unable to support themselves). I would guess when those solutions were employed, the percentage of citizens who needed them was much smaller than the dependent population today.

Edited to add: Sorry, Watcher, I'm out of time for now, but I'll read your post later.

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"I love all of this mud," said no one, ever.