Old Horse Casting In Field? Question and Rant
 

Last night I was at work and am SO glad I missed this fiasco. DH calls me around midnight (I accidentally left my cell home) and tells me the following story:

Buddy, 27 year old Arab, was noted by a neighbor to be laying in the same spot ALL DAY. I felt badly because when I left for work I saw him laying down, but he looked like he was enjoying a snooze in the sun, laying with his legs tucked up under him. They rallied the troops and DH came home from work as they were all standing out there around Buddy. Buddy made many many unsuccessful attempts to stand but was unable to get that final "oomph." Call in to vet, who said he was already on an emergency call but to try flipping Buddy to his other side, ensure that his feet were going downhill ( a very very slight incline) and leave him be, let him rest and try again on a different side. As soon as they flipped him, he hopped up and stood in one place with his back feet together for about 10 minutes, then ambled off and got into the round bale. The vet was completely unconcerned and said it happens to old fogies like Buddy and as long as there were good gut sounds, he wasn't thrashing etc like colic, all would be fine. I love my vet, LOVE him, and once again, he was right. Did I mention I LOVE my vet? Anyhow, DH kept checking on him throughout the night and he remained up right; he was fine when I got home early this AM as well.

One of the first horses we ever had was a rescue with a severe hip injury who would cast in the field about once every month; we had to flip him to his good side and he would get right up. DH is kicking himself for not thinking of flipping Buddy right away since we were so familiar with this situation.

Buddy has no injuries, however, and is just old. Have any of you had this with an older horse? Is this a once and done or possibly just the FIRST time? Just wondering if any one has had experience with an otherwise healthy critter doing this. Luckily, Buddy is my smallish arab.

JD used to tuck his feet together when we flipped him to be sure that he didn't accidentally kick anyone; dog gone if Buddy didn't do the same thing, good boy. Funny how they trust us so completely and know when they need help.

So the question portion is, have you guys had this with old fogies who are otherwise healthy, is this the start of a trend or a case of being in a bad spot for his snooze?

Now for a rant.

I totally appreciate everyone being there to help out, but everyone right down the line had this horse in a hole and buried. They expected us to call the vet out and put him down, right there, no way was he getting back up, he was finished because he was old. WHAT???? Per DH, Buddy wasn't even struggling, not panting or thrashing or anything, nothing physically apparent except that he couldn't get up. They had him SO upset; "Are you going to put him down before Becky gets home? SHould we call her and see if she wants to put him down now or be here? WOuld it be better to drag him out so he is gone when she comes home? How are we going to drag him out of the field? You should go dig the hole now." And so on. DH was SHAKING with emotional upset and rage over their attitudes. Again, we are grateful they were there and willing to help, but...you know??? Even after he came back outside after talking to the VET, they were insistent that it was game over, but okay, let's try it to please you...:hrm: One of the biggest instigators was the infamous cousin, the one who was "training" my daughter's pony. She then proceded to berate DH because Buddy is skinny and accuse us of...neglect. Well, DUH, this is why I started getting round bales and have a bag of SR grain to get him started on a feeding program. DH and she got into a HUGE battle over her ignorant comments. She also brought up Duke; many of you know Duk's story, but long story short, he is an enormous GSD who became paralyzed in the back end after an accident about two and a half years ago; we chose to give him a chance to heal, and after 6 weeks he walked again, and he proceded to heal as if nothing had ever happened to him. She insists that we should have put him down, even though he is still here over two years later!!!! Now he has DM and is chugging along, albeit slower and with help from us on steps, and once again, we are STUPID for dealing with it instead of putting him down NOW. DH lost it on her. She also brought up the rescue who would cast and how stupid we were to keep him around; never mind that we rehabbed him to the point of giving pony rides to young kids and he never cast the entire last year he was here until he re-injured the hip; at that point, he went down and never got back up and we had to put him down. Again, we were stupid to keep him around. So here is DH, with our beloved Buddy "Bo-Bo" arab on the ground, and this girl tirading like this.

What is even more shocking was that the people down the lane who I considered friends were also there...backing up the cousin!!! "Yes, we should put him down, will the vet let you put him down here?" Now that I have slept a few hours, I think it could be a case of following the lead of the strongest voiced person at the scene, who was the cousin with her opinionated views. DH called our friend from down the lane who ran up immediately with straps and was willing to try whatever with a tractor bucket and straps. This friend has known me forever, and after the peanut gallery left, he just shook his head and said that while he wouldn't do half the stuff I do for my animals, he knows it is my style and he will do whatever to help out; in other words, he knows I go to extreme lengths with my critters and while he wouldn't do it for his own, he isn't downing ME for doing it.

DH is still livid; he thanks God it wasn't me there to hear all this nonsense, they would have convinced me Buddy was a dead horse who forgot to stop breathing. We both know he is an old fellow at 27, but he is also an arab who is a breed notorious for sailing into the 30's if otherwise healthy.

Don't get me wrong, I am grateful to have a field full of people who showed up to help. My other neighbor, sooo sweet, she wasn't there for the incident but heard from her kids that there was a large group of folks around Buddy last evening; this morning she jogged down the lane just to be sure he was standing and ok, then called me with a report at 7:30am. I didn't tell her I had just gotten home and saw him myself, lol.

What the heck is WRONG with people, or are we over-exagerating this?? I mean, if your friend/neighbor had a horse down, especially a beloved old saint, would you stand around planning his funeral, then while he is still down, start in on your friend for other times they have helped hopeless animals AND accuse them of neglect?! (NEGLECT on a 27 year old gelding who is a very hard keeper, who gets his feet done every 6 weeks, who is sporting his blanket to protect him from the cold, who gets his teeth done every 6 months or so, and has access to a round bale 24/7)?? If you thought something should be done differently, ASK us what we are doing about his weight or offer ideas, don't lecture us on NEGLECT. The other two horses are fat with rain gutters, so do you really think this is true "neglect??" Would you be making burial plans, or would you comfort, support, but maybe gently prepare your friend for what could be a bad outcome?

Ugh, rant over. Sorry, had to get it all out there. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry you went through that. It sounds like Buddy just found himself in a bad position. He was able to get up himself once flipped over. Doesn't sounds like old age to me. I have a young horse that managed to cast himself twice in one night. It was muddy and I found him up against the chicken coop. I never did figure out how he did that. I put a rope around one front and one back fetlock on the legs closest to the ground and flipped him myself.

I guess he was tired so he went and laid down by the fence. He laid down too close and was cast again. Once again I put a rope around the fetlocks and flipped him. Even in the mud I was able to flip him myself. It's not easy getting it started but he helped.

He's never done it again. 27 is not that old. You might consider using some liniment on his legs. If he was down all day, it might help with any stiffness.

As for the people that had her all but in the grave, don't let them get to you. How many were actual horse people? It could be they thought the cousin knew something and they were being supportive. Or at least thought they were.

For weight gain, I find alfalfa to be the best way. You can feed it from a bale or get pellets or cubes. If you go with cubes, you'll want to soak them. I have an Arabian mare that can be hard to keep at a weight I like. Alfalfa made all the difference.

Keep us updated on how Buddy is.

Sometimes people's remarks are a kick in your heart. I was on a road trip with a beloved old dog and let her out to relieve herself- unfortunately on some hot rocks. She was pussy footing around with her normal slight wobble when a perfect stranger came up to tell me how hard it was to put an animal down when they needed it.
I didn't say anything back but I did start worrying that maybe I wasn't doing the best for my girl. I even took her to vet to ask when we got back. He said she was fine but you are vunerable when your sole interest is doing the best for your animal.
Just remember that people are frequently oblivious to effect of their remarks- they are blessedly free of the pain you feel and so do not check their tongues.
BTW I have also helped a horse get up by putting a halter on with a cotton lead line, then when the horse makes an attempt to get up, I add my weight back against the halter. It seems to frequently be enough that they don't flop back so fast and it gives them time to get their legs under for the lift.

I had a thought I might try in the face of this sort of thing- telling them that I am sorry that they are distressed by the sight of this situation but I think that there is a good life to be lived yet and I don't want to give up on him.

He seems great today, ate his grain, a little frisky. Hanging out at that round bale like it was the last lifeboat on the Titanic. :)

Please try to see it from someone else's view. A skinny, old horse that hadn't been able to get up all day, even though there was nothing there to get stuck on. Needing to euthanize isn't too far-fetched of an assumption. I know you love your critters immensely, Becca... and do more for them than others would. But if someone didn't KNOW that....see what I mean?
It seems to be the other way here.... i've had two old horses go down and their eyes just told me it was time... and other folks have been beside me urging me to help the horse get up, it'll be okay once it's up......um, no.

I would agree with this.

Becca, remember, this is the horse who you said looked awful and had lost a ton of weight just this past April (your neighbors probably saw that), and you had to wait and get some money together before you could have the vet out for teeth floating and/or blood work. All that the neighbors know is he's old and still skinny, he was stuck on the ground all day, and if you're short on cash (who isn't these days?), maybe they thought putting him down would be for the best.

Glad to hear he's back to himself today.

True points, both. He had looked great all the way through til about three weeks ago, then it melted off him again. I got the round bales hoping to fatten him up, now he is also on grain and I'll be getting beet-pulp or something to beef him up. I can see where it looked bad, though, from their eyes. Luckily it all turned out well. Looks as though I might have him on grain year round from now on, though.

I think it's not WHAT they said, but HOW they said it. Now that I have had a day to digest it all, it doesn't matter what they think any way. The important thing was they were out there in the bitter cold to lend a hand.

One thing about Senior feeds - check the fat content. I've found that some Senior feeds don't actually have that much fat, percentage wise. For instance, Purina (that's what is most available here) senior feed is only 5.5% fat, where their regular Strategy and Omolene 200 is 6% and Strategy HE is 8%. Their Ultium feed is 12.5%. I've been shopping around and trying different feeds for my competitive horses (one who is 23 also), and am going with the slightly less protein, higher fat feed now. They've been on it a month, and so far I'm liking it. Before this I was adding beet pulp (prob will still add that, it's cheap), rice bran, and a fat supplement.

Just something to check.

I will definitely check into the Ultima, then. Maybe that is why he isn't gaining more.

Thank you all for talking me off the ledge. Maybe I also feel a twinge of guilt that Buddt looks so bad, too, and that is why I got hyper hearing it. it isn't neglect though, that is lousy word to throw at someone!

Becca, I haven't had my 27 year old qh gelding get cast but I sure know what you're going through with the weight thing. He's always been a hard keeper but starting about 4 years ago I was wondering if I was going to have to put him down just because I couldn't keep any weight on him.

Today he doesn't have a rib showing although due to muscle loss he still has a slight sway back and some bony hips. So what he eats is this: 1 1/2 gallon bucket that has a cup of calfmana, then almost to the top with Purina Equine Sr. and topped off with my regular grain mixture of cracked corn/oats/horse pellets/molasses/tm salt (I only grain once a day). Free access to a round bale plus 2-3 flakes of hay out of a square bale (2nd cutting vs 1st cutting in the round bales), and pasture.

Now the kicker that is hard to believe. I had a mare with ringbone and had her on DC-Y from MVP (Devils Claw & Yucca) for pain management rather than bute since she needed it all the time. Her arthritis got bad enough that she needed to be put down and since I still had some of the supplement left I gave it to the gelding just to get it used up. It was about the same time as I started him on Sr. feed and I thought the feed was doing wonders. Used up the DC-Y and he started losing weight again. Ordered some more and it's now part of his daily ration. Even though he has no obvious sign of arthritis I figure he must be stiff & achy from old age and the pain was causing him to not go out and graze like he should or it was stressing him enough to cause the weight loss. Since that combo works for him I ain't gonna change it by taking the Sr. feed away to see if I can still keep weight on him without it so I can't say for sure that it's part of the success.

I order it from United Vet (www.unitedvetequine.com). Valley Vet also carries it. That's if you want to give it a try.

Very true! :)

If you are able to get Blue Seal feed Vintage Victory is 10% fat and low protein. I've fed it for years to my TB that loses condition in the winter.

Here's an analysis: http://www.blueseal.com/equine/produ...ageVictory.pdf

People are always the worlds leading authority and expert on what you should do with your animals, and I am glad you let common sense rule the day. I also find the truly knowledgable folks don't volunteer opinion and advise without being asked, while the novice marches about spouting their expertise:) I think an animal who is struggling a bit but CLEARLY not in any pain or severe distress deserves thoughtful consideration and common sense solutions, not a knee jerk reaction of "oh boy, how much of a pain in the butt is this going to be to me to deal with this and it be easier to just put him down". Kudos to you and DH - good luck to the old boy

One thing you must remember about Senior feeds is that they are desinged to be a COMPLETE feed, not a top-dress or supplement. They do not provide the appropriate nutrition when fed at 2, 3 , or 5 lb per head per day. If you are providing free choice hay, then supplementing with a Senior Feed you are not meeting the horse's nutrient requirments.

Jim

OK, reading all of this I realize why graining him is failing. I will look into something better for the old codger. Thank you!

since you weren't actually there, you don't know exactly what they said. What you know is your DH's interpretation of what they said.

I have learned after 30 years of marriage, my DH sometimes puts a spin on what he tells me because it upset him and it colors how he relays the info to me. He may skip the way someone looked, or the sympathetic note in their voice that I would have caught if I had been there.

But like you said, the important thing is they were out in the cold to help.

Over the many years I've had horses, it has always turned out to be clear to me when the time was right. I might worry and fret but then it was clear. The animal told me. So now I don't fret- I just wait.
I have never found it neccessary to tell other people who clearly care about their horses what they should do about putting an animal down, either way. I supoose if I was ready to take on the horse, I might have said something.
The closest I came was telling a young girl that riding a seriously lame horse was not OK.
I did tell one woman who tried her hardest to fix her horse that I thought she did it just right. She did everything thinking about the horse first. I was surprised that she was very happy to hear that. I'm sure that she'd heard lots of casually thrown out remarks that were distressing.

it's that cousin, mainly. Not bad enough that she was measuring him for a hole, but had to drag old Duke up and lecture DH on how he should have been put down years ago and how awful it was to keep the old rescue around. I can assure you, JD was happy and had a great fulfilled life up until the vet let him go, and old DUke has made it quite clear that he is happy and content for his last few months with us.

I did talk to the neighbors today, thanked them so much for all they did, and asked if they thought the cousin was out of line in a very well placed, indirect way. They said that all of them felt the same way, he was exhausted, the "light and fire" was gone from his eyes, and they thought it was the end. The only difference is the cousin kept saying out loud what they were all thinking and being very blunt and rude about it. I came in and had a chat with DH about it all, and said that it was no harm, no foul, that is the way this girl is and has always been, let's be grateful they all banded together to help us; it is great knowing that we are all there for each other. He agreed. Bygones. I couldn't have asked for a better ending no matter who said what. :) I'm over it, just seeing old sleletor out there munching his hay makes me happy. The neighbors expressed amazement over him going right over to eat when he got up, meaning they thought he was way worse than he was. Glad and thankful today. :)

One thing I have found with my old horses is that they need to be fed twice a day (grain) every day. Usually supplemented with rice bran and alfalfa pellets in the grain as well as sometimes a joint supplement. Old horses that lose weight have a harder time putting it back on and keeping it on, so it is seems like it is easier to just keep them a bit on the fluffy side (at a 6 on the H scale). I use alfalfa pellets as sometimes their old teeth just can't do justice to regular hay and the pellets are easier to chew. I will wet their feed if the teeth are especially bad and will add beet pulp as a hay supplement (I use the shreds and soak it, never feed it dry).

Just my thoughts as I have had many, many old horses, most live to be 34-35 years old before they just give out and have to be put down. My last gal was 34.5 years old and had to be put down due to cancer. The one before her was the about the same age, but went neurological and got where she could not get up without assistance.

Keep hay in front of them, grain 2x a day with any supplements, worm on time every time, teeth done 2x a year if required and hopefully they will make it another 10 years. Oh and sometimes just keeping one in work helps, light work if they can physically do it, keeps their interest up and gives them something to look forward to every day. Retirement doesn't do some horses a lick of good..they just go downhill without a job.

He went down again last evening. He had gotten up earlier in the day alone after a snooze.

I called the vet and he said to go ahead and try fortified B Vitamins I have on hand for the goats; may give him an extra boost while we struggle to get weight back on him.

I will try for a couple of weeks and see if I can get weight on him and if it makes a difference; the winter has been really mild and we are heading to warmer spring weather so he won't be laying on snow until found; people are in and out of the lane all day and night and will be looking out for him. If nothing helps, then that is an answer unto itself. I will give him a few weeks to see first.

I'm sorry, Becky. It's a crappy situation to be in, regardless.

Make the feed changes and see if getting some weight on him will work. In the meantime you'll just have to be keep an eye on him and help him up when he needs it.

Good luck

When my mare had cancer, she couldn't keep weight on no matter how much she was fed and she laid down alot. Vet said at her age, she was 34.5 years old, that she was spending so much time sleeping as her feed was "going right through her" and she was getting no energy from it.

Many times that is one sign of cancer of the stomach or intestines is that they get no nutrition from the feed, lose weight, are "tired" looking, get down and don't have the energy to get up. I know you feel devastated about Buddy but perhaps he couldn't get up because like my old mare, he just didn't have the energy to do so. Cancer is so devastating especially if a horse is stoic as they sure try to act like nothing is wrong.

So sorry about Buddy, but you didn't let him suffer and that speaks volumes for you.