Bit questions (and other riding issues)

Pam, the picture is kinda deceptive but it looks very similar to one I have and if so, they roller covers the link. I can't speak for the bit shown but mine is a decent bit that sees consistent use for one reason or another.

TennesseeMama23, it is true that when it comes to bits, you pay for quality. Lesser quality doesn't always achieve the same results and in some cases can be uncomfortable for the horse. I had the good fortune of having an old timer take me on a bit field trip one time and he shared a handy little tip. When you're shopping for bits, take the bit and wrap it around the fleshy part of your arm and tighten. It the bit pinches your arm, it's going to pinch your horse and you need to continue shopping.

I can't speak to its suitability for the OP and her situation, but I did get my hands on that particular bit a few weeks ago and the mouthpiece does indeed articulate in two places. There is a type of ball-and-socket sort of joint between the center portion of the port and the two side parts of the mouthpiece. So there is a heck of a lot of movement within that mouthpiece. Yeah, the cheeks swivel too.

You probably saw a temporary improvement in some of your horse's handling because this bit has a taller port and longer shanks. However, it has been my experience that when you "escalate" to a harsher bit (and from your description of the original bit you used on this horse, I do believe this bit is significantly harsher) to achieve obedience, you may see a brief improvement in your horse's behavior before things degenerate right back to where they were before the bit swap... if not worse than before.

I think you need to do some work with this horse. Did your trainer give you anything to work on to improve his obedience or did she just pop you into a harsher bit? Working with him on flexing and giving is a very good start.

Your horse's head-shaking and rearing during your "arguments" all say that the simple curb bit is plenty strong and is applying a considerable amount of discomfort. He is either uneducated or he doesn't accept your leadership. I don't think a stronger bit is the answer to your problem in this case.

Is he well-trained? Is it possible that you are saying one thing with your legs and seat, but saying another with your hands?

What are you running in the way of a curb strap? Plain leather? Plain chain? Leather ends with chain in the middle? How tight is it currently?

I've been gone all day, so just checking back.

I actually didn't know until my lesson that I should have been using a curb strap. I've been riding this whole time without one (I've just been using what he came with and assumed that was all of it)

He is well trained in going, stopping, turning. He is very responsive to leg pressure, and the slightest twitch of the reins (I learned a lot in this one lesson, I didn't realize how subtle my movements needed to be and he still understand). He won't back up more than a step or two or side pass.

ETA: I am supposed to work on flexing, stop and go, backing up a little, we are doing spirals to center and stop, I'm going to 2 handed riding until I master that--that is a LOT to work on, imo. I've not been doing much of anything other than getting on and hitting the trail. I do think some consistent working is due.

He was a perfect angel at lessons.

Like Jenni said, it does move at the barrel. I was wrong on that pic, that is the 7 in higher ported. The one I actually used and am thinking about buying is a little lower port, 5" shank.

You didn't come across as snarky at all

My trainer never said a different bit will solve our problems, she just likes the bit I tried out and I want to start with good equipment. The guy I bought the horse from gave me everything I need along with the horse. But, understandably, he gave me the worst of everything he had. The saddle was horrible (he even told me so beforehand), the bit is rusted up. He told me the horse was fine in any bit (and I think he mostly is).

I do think I need to do more groundwork. I just really don't know what to do and it's easier to get on his back and go (I know, I know....lol). I have a membership to giddupflix. I plan on ordering some dvd's to help.

This is the actual pic of the actual bit I used.

Does your trainer have a very well trained horse you could ride for at least several sessions? It would help you a lot, IMO, to ride a horse that will do what your trainer is asking so you can feel what she means and not be trying to work the horse as well as learn yourself.

I'm not sure why riding a western horse that is trained to neck rein with a western bit would be a problem. I do think the shanks on the bit may be a little long for an inexperienced rider. Myler makes a quality bit, and bits are not a good place to skimp. You may be able to find a cheaper one, but the balance and finish will not be the same. Sometimes you can save money on ebay, when you know just what you want. I have some bits that are 50yrs old or more and still in great shape.

Why does your trainer want you to ride using both hands instead of neck reining? If that is the way your horse is trained and that is the way you want to ride--I'm really tired but I can't think of a good reason.

I doubt that your horse accidentally went off the trail and into trees. I had a mare when I was a kid that would try to scrape a rider off that way if they were out of balance or she tired of being pulled on by kids that were new to riding. I think that he is doing some testing!

If your horse is comfortable in the bit your using now I would just keep using it. Myler makes good quality bits, designed around balance, comfort and function.

If you just started with lessons you need to give yourself some time and practice what your learning.
Your horse does sound like he may be a little spoiled/sour but with regular work he will improve. Keep taking lessons, ask your trainer lots of questions. Ask if you can watch other folks getting lessons to help you visualize some of what is being taught. Or have someone video tape so you can see yourself.

Doesn't matter. Make stuff up. Seriously. Whatever you can dream up that a horse can do, teach him to do it! Does he park out? Teach him that. Start by teaching him to move one foot at a time - a specific foot - when you ask. "Horse, I want you to move your right hind ONLY." Work on that until you can ask for any foot to move and he does it. Then get more specific: "Horse, I want you to move your right hind back 3 inches." Sounds nuts, but in the end, it's about control. Finesse. And teaching the horse to learn.

You mentioned that he'll only back up or sidepass a few steps. Work on that from the ground. Back him all over the place. Back him around obstacles. Over obstacles. (Safe ones!) Back him into his stall. Through the gate. Every time you stop him, ask him to back up a step or two. Advance that to jogging alongside him having him to go from a faster gait to stopped (WHOA!) immediately, and then back. Back fast. Back slow. Make him back before he gets his dinner. (BIG respect points there! I do it with all of mine - they have to back up and wait for me to dump their feed and still wait until I say okay.)

Do the same with lateral stuff. Ask him to move his shoulders only (from both sides/directions). His hindquarters only. To pivot on a specific foot. When asking for the shoulder to move laterally, make sure the outside leg crosses in front of the inside leg. (Yes, he can learn the difference if you persist!) Have him sidepass, both ways. Start with a single step. Advance to a couple steps. Then keep going. Sidepass him over poles. Sidepass him up to (but not INTO) a barrier so he learns you can ask him to sidle up to something and won't crash him into it - will be handy if you need to climb up on a fence to get on him, or are wanting to work a gate from his back.

For both the back and the sidepass, also teach a verbal cue, so when you make the transition from ground to saddle, there's a connection.

10-15 minutes a day of groundwork can accomplish a LOT. You can teach a horse darned near anything if you really want to, and sometimes, it's just plain FUN. For example, my mare yawns on command. Have fun - groundwork doesn't have to be a chore.

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To train me, I'm a little uncomfortable riding 2 handed, she thinks I need to get good at 2 handed riding before neck reining. Charlie does equally well either way.

TenneseeMama, It takes a long time to develop the skills needed to communicate with a horse effectively. Nobody starts with good hands and an independent seat but if you are willing to learn and stick with it things will come together for you. I was once told that it takes over a hundred hours of saddle time to begin to have a "feel" with my hands and believe that to be true.

You mention that your instuctor wants you to learn to ride with two hands and work on lateral flexions with your horse. I think that is good advise and it's the method I use when I work with inexperienced riders. The best tack for this type of work is either a simple snaffle bit or a rope halter. Both of these work on the principal of direct pressure and have no leverage devices to increase the amount of pull by the rider. Shanked bits are meant to be ridden with no direct pressure on the horses mouth but rather by neck reining and using the seat to control and direct the horses movement.

I would suggest that you get a snaffle bit (or rope halter) and continue to ride two handed while you develop the skills and feel that will help you refine your communication with the horse. These tools will help the inexperienced rider recognize the horses "give" at the right moment and allow the rider to develop the "feel and timing" which will lead to refinement as you gain experience. To quote a great horseman, "without feel and timing the horse has nothing to go on".

Good luck in your journey and remember to enjoy each moment.


Have fun, be safe

Jack

Molly Mckee, some instructors will start western riders using two hands for a number of reasons. New riders have a tendency keep their hands way too high and they can be quite heavy on the bit so it's not uncommon to start them with two hands but teach them that they can rein by a simple shift of their wrist. I've also had new riders use two handed reining if they keep using their free hand to clutch the horn. It's a dangerous habit that affects posture and balance.

I have this bit. (korsteel french link)

So, I should use this one for training (both of us, lol), and go back to my curb for trail riding? Do I need a curb strap on it? I've been told both ways.

Be careful about internet training advice, it's always well intentioned but the person is unable to see what your trainer sees in real life, there may be a valid reason why she prefers that bit on your horse. When in doubt listen to the person that has actually seen you ride your horse- that's why you're paying her, correct? Edited to add: Or ask her about using a snaffle- a snaffle is always my choice of bit but I can't comment on you and your horse because I've never seen you ride him.

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That bit should work well for you. I would use a leather curb strap with it.

It's funny but I've found that horse training has less to do with training horses than it does training people. We all begin with zero skills and then spend the rest of our lives developing them. There is no end to the journey which is why I personally ind it so challanging.

I wouldn't recommend using a curb bit for trail riding. That would indicate a belief that the bit is there for control rather than refinement. Consistancy is critical to a horse and once you learn to control and direct a horses energy in the snaffle the location of your riding shouldn't make any difference. I'm a great believer in the use of lateral flexion and the one rein stop and use this as the foundation of methods to reach my horses
"thinking brain". The snaffle bit is the tool designed for this type of communication with a horse.

My own students are taught to ride with just the (one rein only) lead rope before moving on too two handed riding. This helps to prevent them from balancing on their hands by keeping a constant contact with the horses mouth. I also encourage them to ride with no hands (and no stirrups) when the moment and environment are safe for this practice. It's pretty common to see even experienced riders maintaining a contact to help them maintain balance. Feel, timing and balance are the critical factors in becoming a good rider.


Have fun, be safe

Jack

For ground work, try renting DVD's of some of the well known clinicians. Many people find that Clinton Anderson explains what he's doing, why and how very well. Others really like Chris Cox, Denis Reis, Parelli (more controversial, but honestly I find they all teach pretty much the same things) and there are others I like but can't remember right now. They all have their systems and consistent ground work will help you a lot to get in synch with your horse and get his respect.

A trained horse will test a new rider, many won't work their best until they respect you. It sounds like your trainer is giving you good exercises to teach you to ride better and to get you and your horse to work together. Enjoy!

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I should add, that I wouldn't recommend any inexperienced rider trail ride until they are completely comfortable in their ability to control a horse in a confined area. Stuff happens and it's most likely to happen when the horse is in unfamiliar territory.

I agree that Clinton Anderson's videos are a very good introduction for the inexperienced horse owner. The problem is that they have become quite expensive and many people are reluctant to spend the money even though the skills taught might just save there lives at some point.

Have fun, be safe

Jack

Yea, except Mr Parelli will take 50 yrs to get across what Clinton gets across in 10 minutes

Check out www.giddyupflix.com . You can rent horse videos for a monthly fee like Netflix. Very economical!

Lots of good advice in this thread. I will add, since I didn't see it- maybe someone mentioned it and I missed it. But you have to teach your horse a one rein stop. It's not something you can just do, the horse has to learn it ahead of time. Otherwise they may plow on through it as your horse has done. IMO it's pretty dangerous when a horse won't give to one rein and stop. And I mean stop right then. For me, it's a foundation of having a broke horse, lateral flexion and one rein stops. It has a psychological effect on the horse when he "knows" you can stop him.

I think you need groundwork. You will build confidence and learn how to rise to the challenge when your horse tries to ignore you. The more that happens, the less he will ignore you.

I would get Clinton Anderson's "Gaining Respect and Control on the Ground" DVD. Get your horse perfect with all those exercises.

http://www.giddyupflix.com/detail.php?id=147&r=i

http://www.giddyupflix.com/detail.php?id=148&r=i

http://www.giddyupflix.com/detail.php?id=149&r=i

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Our library has a lot of the training videos. You might check with yours. If they don't have them, ask if they can get them with an inter-library loan. Or sometimes if they have x number of requests they will buy something.
Thanks for the info on the two hand reining--all I could think of last night was someone using the reins to balance with and I didn't think that was right.

As fun as trail riding can be, I would wait until I felt I was in control of the horse before I took him out of the arena.
In other words, practice and learn in the arena, and once you are confident in your ability to ride effectively and control the horse take him out on the trail and use everything you both have learned in the arena to make the trail ride safe and fun.

And be patient. Learning to ride takes time. You're doing just fine

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