cut them loose?
 

having yet more issues with dd17. there has been a real shift, she is giving me the cold shoulder, and heaven forbid if anything is asked of her! but yet, she wants things all the time from the family. she is being a real snot. doesn't mind taking but yet the only giving she manages is grief. she's rude and selfish and cold as ice. and making it VERY clear she wants nothing to do with me, but of course blaming it all ON me, as if I've turned on her?!

she pays for her own clothes, gas, and that's it. she's got my laundry room looking like a hurricane hit. her room is tidy and nice. (she's having company this weekend). she no longer is required to do any outside chores, (after telling me she hates this lifestyle)but she also has lost all privilages to horses. not that that probably matters, she rarely rode anyhow. so the only things asked of her are inside jobs like dishes, taking out trash, cleaning the mudroom. getting them done is often like pulling teeth.

a couple weeks ago we had a little talk, I thought things would straighten out, guess not. she said I nagged, and if I would just tell her what needs done, and let it go, she'd do it. hahahha, NOT!! that is not working!

so since she's so miss-independant, should I cut her loose with things like her own car insurance, let her do her laundry in town, etc.?? or is this just a stage you blow off and ignore? she hasn't done/said one kind thing in a few weeks, barely speaking at all. to me, seems it rather got worse a few weeks ago when she got her own cell phone. so since she can buy the fun parts of being so grown up, should I give her the not-so-fun parts as well?? I admit at the moment, I don't much feel like giving her a stale heel of bread!

In our house, until you're 18, we provide the essentials. Like food, and a bed.

Cars and insurance are not "essential". Neither is laundry service or telephones paid for by us. Nor is the right to have company over.

It's amazing how quickly a teenager's attitude adjusts when they're eating nothing but sandwiches, going nowhere except where they can walk to, and have no clean underwear.

Food, (beans and rice), clothing (thrift shop) and housing, are a parents responsibility.... all other things are luxuries. Around my house if a kid wants to enjoy luxuries, they are more than welcome to earn them. Smiles and cheerful, helpful attitudes buy lots of extras.... belligerent, defiant attitudes.... not quite so much. ;)

I was wondering how many hours a week does she works at her job, attend school, and do homework?

When my oldest daughter was a freshman in college, she came home from the holidays with a real attitude. When I took her back to school after the holidays, we stopped for lunch and had a nice talk about her behavior. She apologized and explained that she was used to being "independent" now and was having a hard time being told what to do or pitching in when she came home.

After picking my jaw up, I explained just how dependent she was (she had excellent scholarships but we paid the balance of her tuition, room and board, insurance, etc) and that she would be unwelcome at home if she didn't behave differently. That discussion worked with her, luckily but if it hadn't we would have had to follow through.
I think your daughter's behavior is not very unusual for her time in life. I would have a good talk with her about your expectations, and if it doesn't work. ... you need to push her out of the nest and try her wings on her own.


ETA: I just went back and realized your daughter is just 17, I must be misremembering your posts because I thought she was moving out of the family home.

I agree, modern parents have been guilted by the media into over compensating our children for our own busy work/home lives. We were told that our children somehow deserved private TV, stereo, computer, phones, fancy clothes, cars, on and on. This is nuts and is just psychological control exherted over us by the media and major companies. As parents it is our responsibility to fight back to protect our children and our families from this garbage assault. It is our job to train our children to recognize the lie. Unfortunately some of us did not realize this untill it was very late in the game at which time it is very difficult to retrain our kids. Honor your child by NOT buying/paying for things they should earn and pay for themselves to provide them a sense of responsiblity and personal accomplishment.

Went through same thing here. All three thought they were independent then we explained they were on scholarships (tuition, books, room, food) were all paid for 100% because mom found and forced them to try to get every scholarship and grant out there. They all had on campus jobs which should have been more than enough to buy little fun things. Their choices to eat out everyday instead of in the cafeteria, etc. was their problem not ours. If they chose to not get the grades to keep their scholarships it would then be up to them.

Not that cut and dried though. Our daughters have had all the luxuries above and were/are straight A students, worked hard at summer jobs and my oldest daughter was hired by a good firm before she even graduated. My youngest was just accepted into one of the top schools in the country and both girls give time and work to charities on a regular basis.
Both have excellent work ethics but by most standards would be considered "spoiled". Though they don't seem it at all.

When did most of the problems start? With the car and the cell phone?

That is most of the problem and the answer in one.

What does she pay for, the phone,,the car? Those are privileges, not necessities.

she paid for the car, and pays her cell phone. the only chores asked of her, are things she's involved with--dishes (she does eat here), some cleaning. that's it. and she is pretty free to go as she wishes, jsut talking about it first, letting me know who/what/ etc. now in the past few weeks, she's done a few things that she never even mentioned. she feels that since she has paid for the car however, its no longer up for discussion.

she is at school per regular hours, and gets a couple nights a week working. she spends some time on homework but tons of time FB and yapping with loverboy. I don't think she's getting near enough sleep. I know she's not! but again, she bought the phone so how long she's on it seems to be none of my business.

and I realize this is not exactly unheard of in a 17yo teenage girl! just like hearing others who've been there before me handle things. thank you

Unless she also plans on paying for the roof over her head out of her part time job, you have every right to1)tell her when she is to be home/give you a heads up regarding the car 2) you have the right to limit her phone usage, also if she wants food and roof over her head. She is still in school and still 17 and YOU have to look out for her interests and those of the rest of your family. Her attitude might change if she had to pay for more herself. No attitude adjustment would mean no guests, IMO.

Oh, I HATED that phase! And, I do not think that there is any quick fix!

DD will be 20 in about a weeks time, and she is again a human being that I enjoy being around. It did take some time.

It helped that she had trouble finding work: she did find a good job last December but she still does not have her own car. That gives me a most excellent edge while she was going through that horrible phase!

Basically I told her that I would not loan her *MY* car until she cleaned her room, or did her chores, or whatever. A couple of times she arranged for a friend to pick her up instead of doing her chores but USUALLY things got done! Mostly because she took PRIDE in offering her friends rides! And she hated to ask for help because that interfered with the image that she was trying to build of an independant young lady! So, while she did arrange for rides a few times, most often she did the chores. In a bad mood but I was carefull to ignore that. DH did scold her for her attitude once in a while, but if I had tried that while she was working then she would have changed the subject to attitudes while I was, at the time, trying to focus on her chores.

What she was doing was re-defining herself as an adult. Adults do not always do what adults are told to do. BUT! Adults pull their own weight. At the time she had not reconciled those 2 concepts. She was trying to take on adult freedoms WITHOUT accepting adult responsibilities because she thought that she should not have to do as she was told.

But, if she could re-draw her boundaries as an adult, so could I. So I stopped loaning her my car until her chores were done. If that caused her a problem that was not my responsibility. Period.

So, now she is almost 20. I charge her a small amount of room and board-a very small amount but I thought it important that she pays it- and she has very few chores to do, now. But she does do them, excepting for keeping her room up.

Every couple of weeks I have her clean her room. I rarely have to forbid her the use of the car any more, but she knows that I will use it if I have to. And, she rarely pushes me that far. She knows better.

On the surface we are adults living in the same house: she has MOSTLY dropped the attitude! And, she has a lot more experience in how to set boundaries, and so she is able to do it without everybody wanting to strangle her for her own bad attitude! It did take her many mistakes before she figured out what were reasonable boundaries and how to set them.

I set a few boundaries of my own while we were at it. For one thing, I started charging her room and board, and this was when I stared having her pay for her own gas. BUT! I started paying her $5 an hour for her chores! And of course I stopped her allowance. Adults do not get allowances.

Now, my daughter was 18 but still in school when I did the above, and yours is only 17. She appears to be going through the same phase, though. Mine came out of it knowing how to behave like an adult, so I SUPPOSE it was worth it! But, MAN o MAN I sometimes wanted to strangle her!!!!!!!! She was TRYING to act like an adult but she was doing a good imitation of a bratty little kid!! I gave her the benefit of the doubt and tried to model how an adult asserts themselves, (it is my car and I will not loan it to you unless your chores are done, said in a matter-of-fact voice), and eventually she stopped the brat routine!

Okay, she goes to school, gets decent grades, works a job, paid for her car, pays for her gas and clothes, pays for her cell phone, keeps her room clean....I'd be tempted to give her a "get out of housework" card as long as she kept up with the other stuff.

Mostly it sounds like she is on track. I truly did hate the phase where my daughter had not yet figured out how to act like an adult, so she was coming across as bratty!:runforhills:

I would not care if my daughter was a saint outside of the house if she showed such disrespect within the family. Part of growing up is learning to control your emotions and not have them control you. The "I hate every atom that makes up my Mom" phase is normal for nearly every teenage girl but they can keep it to themselves or chat about it with their friends. She is not my peer. I would not accept it and would certainly not enable it. And this would be at age 17 or 27.

Time to start chanrging rent! If she cannot be a part of the family and wants nothign to do with pitching in she can pay finacially for it. Let her learn that nothing in life is free. My kids cannot get a license until they have a job that wil pay for insurance that is the rule-driving is a priviledge not a right. They also pay rent once they are out of school unless they attend college full time. If she needs to learn what being a grown up is i suggest you charge her for use of laundry facilities as extra and fees if she leaves it a pig sty. She can pay he r own insurance since sh ecan pay for her phone as well. Rent should cover food for herself(friends get charged for) and lodging.I would say about $300 a mmonth should teach her that life isnt a ride and parents are not going to put up with passive agressive behavior. I also suggest taking pics of her room and showing them to her friends so they know how special they are to her!

yes, she does do very well, and I AM very proud of her, tell her when I can. I guess I just don't know how to turn this nasty attitude around. leave her completely alone? cut her loose a bit more, paying her insurance.? we pay for it in trying to help her out, and because of all she does do.

or, just keep being nice to her, and ignoring her attitude? I don't want her to think she's not wanted but I sure don't wish to be run over by her either.

I have left her to her privacy for many days, and friendly when she did appear and that was fine. we joked a bit while she was having supper and back into her room she went. no problem. but when I simply ask for her to finish taking out the trash, and get the eye roll/snort/i wiiiillllll whine, argh!:catfight:

Ya know, you cannot force or coerce a person to be nice and respectful....that has to come from within. I guess if it were me, I'd attempt to model pleasantness and niceness, give her space and simply ignore her until she comes around. Don't let her set the tone for the household.

..............As long as she is still in HS , you should still insist on setting her hours , Su-Fr , in bed by 10pm , UNless she is working and mention to her you will be checking her weekly work schedule IF she is fudging on that ! Kids posting all kinds of personal stuff on FB can create all kinds of UNanticipated problems later on when they start their Adult life pursuits !
.............You are the Still the Time keeper as long as she is living UNder your roof ! You'll either reasserate your authority or nothing is going to change . , fordy:coffee:

I am a little confused. What you are suggesting IS allowing her to set the tone of the household.

If, as parents, you are modeling a loving family atmosphere, are fair and age appropriate with your demands and directions and set clear standards for behaviour and expectations and yet your child decides that they don't have to do anything that they don't want to do why would you just ignore this and hope it all turns out for the best? A clear case of the tail wagging the dog.

You don't have to be unpleasant or a bully you just have to have boundaries and enforce them. This can be done politely but if the situation warrants anger or disappointment there is no need to hide YOUR feelings. The only thing is that whatever you do you should do it with absolute consistency.

If your child gives you the silent treatment or leaves the laundry room in the state of a pigsty and you accept it then why would they not keep doing what works for them?

When my daughter did this, she was trying to be an adult. To set boundaries.


What she might have MEANT to say was, "If I was an adult visiting, would you ask them to take out the garbage"?

And the ANSWER would be "You are not a visitor, and adults help to take care of their homes".

But instead of speaking she complains, and so she does not get the explanation.

It is not a pleasant phase, but my daughter behaved this way for a bit also.

Yup, my DD did too at that age and her DD did the same at that age!

Have fun and consider drinking in the afternoon! :D

Just an idea... Take her out for a "coffee/ice cream, whatever she loves, date", tell her how proud you are of her and how hard she works, and that you appreciate her, that you love her ever so much. And tell her how important she is to you and the household, that you depend on her for helping with little things around the house, that you can't do it without her and that you appreciate her helping you so much. Just be real with her, but let her know that you need her, that she is vital to you and the home. Let her know that you don't give her chores to be "mean", but because you need her! We all need help, and helping can be so fulfilling and rewarding! And maybe make the coffee date a regular thing just for her c:

I agree completely.
She's 17. She is still a child. You are supposed to support her. In fact, the law demands it. Lighten up. Be happy she is at home, not on drugs, does well in school, and is a decent kid. She is your daughter, not paid help.

I was willing to ignore tantrums and bad behavior to a point. However, I did not tolerate disrespectful attitude/behavior directed at anyone else. I don't care how angry/upset etc. you are in this house you will be respectful to others PERIOD. We had 2 dd of our own plus 4 foster teenaged dd's. Life was often very unpleasant but we survived. Only one dd left home angry and that's because I refused to accept that it was okay for her to stay out all night with bf when she was 17. She informed me she was an adult and could do as she pleased -- I pointed out where the door was and she used it. That dd is now 41 and deeply regrets leaving as she did. She is/was very hard headed and stubborn about life and in general to this day always learns everything the hard way. As a parent that is hard to watch, but the fact is with that type of personality there is nothing a parent can do other than watch them hit bottom and hopefully they learn from the experience.

I don't agree with giving a 100% pass on chores. If you are part of a family/household you should contribute your share. Even if she gets a pass on chores it is totally unacceptable to trash any part of the house. She definitely would not be having a friend to stay until she cleaned up the laundry room. I think its reasonable that she doesn't have to help outside since that is not her lifestyle, but she is living in the house so she should help in the house. Its not slavery its participation in the life of the household.

Oh I remember those days! No, she is not hired help, but if she wants to live in your home it is by your rules. If she was sharing an apartment with friends, they would not be inclined to be her slaves. Neither should you.

But nagging and reminding do set them off.

We basically wrote down the rules: curfews, that we were to know where she was at all times, and what her fair share of the chores were. We also left open the option she could ask to be relieved of a given chore for a good reason. For example, if she wasn't coming home after school due to a choir concert she could arrange for me or a sib to do her animal feeding, with her to return the favor by doing one of our chores on a set date.

As to cell phone, depends how badly you want her connected. As she is a minor under your roof, if you want her semi connected get her a prepaid for emergencies only. As to the car, doesn't matter who is paying what, who's name is one the title? Unless your state allows minors to be sole owners and bars you from responsibility, you can indeed take the keys.

By 17 she should know how to be nice. While she indeed needs to individuate, she does not have to do it nastily. Re the laundry room: using it is a privilege that is revocable unless done by your rules. Period. Enforce it.

As you can tell, I'm not much for the idea that kids today "deserve" all the goodies, on their terms, and with a bad attitude to boot.

Get the book Boundaries and read it, I suggest. Make sure you pick wise battles and win them. Only difference is now you win silently at this age. When they lose a privilege tell them calmly, quietly, don't discuss or explain, and just enforce it.

Cause sure as shooting when they go out in the world they won't be pampered and carried.

I would not let her have company if she is acting that way. I would also take her phone if it is causing problems. My 17 year old son bought his own phone, but he knows I'd take it in a heartbeat if he cops an attitude. All of our kids are expected to help out, no matter how old they are. Too many parents allow their kids to run the house. Our oldest tried the attitude thing with us & she ended up moving out to her own apartment. We would not put up with it. Now that she is out, she realizes how nice she had it at home. We didn't talk for almost a year after she moved. Now she calls all the time & tells me how she misses my cooking, etc. She also struggles at times to pay for her tuition. If she would have stayed at home & minded her manners she could have applied for help using our income which would qualify her for help. Since she wanted to be so independent, she does not get that from us. She is on her own & can pay her own way. She learned a tough lesson, but she also learned she could not disrespect us & get away with it.

LOL She WOULD be moving out. I cant see any reason to have a unpleasant Guest(and thats what she is) in my home.
I would of course explain that to her.

its not going to actually HURT her to cut her loose, and if she's not doing chores then why are you paying for her car insurance?

:UMNO"
AS a visitor I have always pitched in and helped. The longer the stay the more Id help. LOL its actually a matter of feeling comfortable enough to do more.
Come to think of it I don't think I have ever had a visitor that wasn't the same way.

If she lived in a dorm room in college, she would have a curfew. Some whole TOWNS have curfews! So her being home at a certain time is not a "blow to her newly felt adult status".

I generally try to pre-empt this phase, and it IS a phase. At the age of 16 (often the day after their 16th birthday), I have the "adult responsibilities/privileges" talk. By most ancient cultures, they are an adult at 16...by our laws, however, I can't kick them out. However, my responsibilities include making sure they have a roof over their head, food to eat, and clothes to wear, that is IT, and *I* get to choose what kind of food is available, what kind of clothes I buy, and whether they are allowed to sleep in their old room or in the living room closet.

Everything beyond those very basics they have to earn, either by getting an outside job and buying/paying for it themselves, or by working around the house/homestead. I pay minimum wage. "Extras" like clothes they WANT, ice-cream, etc., is deducted from this. Electricity that their "toys" use is deducted as well. (Heat and A/C is part of the "shelter" part.)

If they wish to "rent" my car for the evening, they have to pay for the use upfront, just as if they were renting from a company. Either money or chores. You want to use the car this Saturday? Fine. That will be $30, in either money or time.

And, if there is a lack of chores being done, I have no problem flipping the breaker that gives their room electricity. How long will that phone or computer run without juice? Sorry, you didn't take out the trash/do the dishes/sweep the dining room, or whatever you were supposed to do, so electricity was turned off for non-payment. Took dishes to your room to eat from and now there are none in the cupboard and your room stinks of dirty dishes and rotted food? You are no longer allowed to use MY dishes. Go buy your own, or eat sandwiches.

And they know that if I CHOOSE to do something nice, like pay their car insurance for them, it is a GIFT, not a requirement from me.

I think that teaches them to be adults more than any amount of nagging in the world.

My daughter's college had no curfew, my younger daughter's school doesn't, nor did my college dorm. They'd better learn to control themselves before they get to college because no one is going to be telling them to come in on time at lots and lots of schools.

It's just a hard age to get through. My DDs were both just awful until they went away to college and actually started missing their parents. Were sorry they took us and their good home life for granted. I got some sobbing phone calls from college apologizing for their previous bad behavior.

It's been all uphill ever since. My adult DDs are my best friends. :)

Make her do her fair share, but since she is a good kid do pick your battles. If it really isn't important, give her a pass. She may be unhappy within herself, but not ready to share with you at this point....hence the snottiness. Heck, I remember doing that myself as a teenager.

However, don't tolerate disrespect from her...just don't.

thanks so much to all. I just wasn't sure to ignore, be all happy go lucky or come down on her. as is, I just let it go. it simply wasn't worth the battle. then last night when she came home (never late!) I quietly said a few things, and now this morning all is just fine. I think I will need thicker skin for this phase, and as mentioned, learn to pick battles that are worth it. otherwise, letting it go.....but with respect. that part is non-negotiable.

how well I have it made with my girls is not lost on me either. I plan to give a bit more praise for that as well.

Sounds to me like she gets way too many choices. I don't quite understand who let kids take jobs, to get cars which they have to maintain & gas up, so they can get to work to buy gas to .... At 17 it may be late to take charge. It sounds like she is quite used to doing what she wants when she wants. But you can try. The suggestions about when to be in, where & when she goes out, how she uses the car, how much she works, etc. can all be yours. You're the parent. Ditto only cleaning her room and only "because she's having company". Doesn't do her assigned chores and keep common areas neat of her stuff? No guests.

I understand very well why people let kids take jobs even if they use their paychecks to just buy gas, etc for the car. Work experience is extremely valuable, in developing a work ethic, moving on to another job and in applying to colleges. Future employers and admissions officers want to see work experience in their applicants.

I think that a lot of parents are very needy. They need their kids to love them. They need their kids to like them. They need their kids not to be mad at them or ever disappointed with their life. A lot of kids play their parents like a violin. And in most cases the kids develope contempt for their parents that leads to even more conflicts.

I have observed that a lot of these kids grow up to be really unhappy. Oh, they get what they want for a while. Some do grow out of this behaviour but most take it with them out into the world - where most people really won't put up with you being sweet as pie one minute and downright nasty the next.

There is nothing wrong with giving your kids perks and privileges but they are not a right. I think it is important to establish that certain requirements must be met. One of those requirements would be courtesy. Not responding, being sullen and rude would be a real problem.

Privacy is also important for kids but not limitless privacy. Your room is your room but we always had the four "Fs". No food, no friends, no filth and no fhone (close enough). If we didn't want to see the disorder we closed the door. But everyone knew that at anytime we might just might walk in and look around.