Christian Ethics & eBay Sale
 

Need some Christian advice regarding an eBay sale I made.

It was a multiple auction for Tobacco seeds and the guy bought 2. At the last minute I also got contacted from an ht-er for seeds. The auction stated they would be packed in snack sized baggies, but I only had two snack baggies left. So I took them and dumped them in a larger baggy and tossed in a bunch of loose seeds as a bonus. This way I was able to fill both orders.

The eBayer who bought the seeds is ticked off because it was in a different sized baggy and is demanding a refund on an item I have posted as no refunds. They sell seeds.

Basically I combined them both in one baggy. Normally I do give refunds but because these are extremely small and seeds I figured there would be no way of determining if they had been stored properly or even had a few pinched from the baggy. Theoretically, considering how few you really need for personal use, they could pinch some and still return the rest without it registering much on the scale. And then I am wondering if it is buyers remorse because they sell Southern seeds and mine are not. My variety is a Minnesota variety.

As a Christian is it ethical to refuse to accept a return on an item marked no refunds, simply because the baggy was different? What would you do?

When I was selling antiques and vintage stuff I just took the item back and refunded the item price but not the shipping charges unless it was my error.

Sounds like they are being a pain, but if you said two snack-sized baggies and that is what they bought, then that is what you have to go by. Maybe you should sell by weight or other measurement- like 1/4 cup, 1/2 cup etc...

It was a multiple auction for Tobacco seeds and the guy bought 2. At the last minute I also got contacted from an ht-er for seeds. The auction stated they would be packed in snack sized baggies, but I only had two snack baggies left. So I took them and dumped them in a larger baggy and tossed in a bunch of loose seeds as a bonus. This way I was able to fill both orders.

I don't understand something. IF you only had 2 baggies as you stated, then when you filled both(Ebay & HT'er) orders, by your own statement it appears you had to short the person on Ebay of the specific seeds offered in order to fill all of the orders.

I'm not sure if it's a Christian question as much as a question of shorting the original order to make an extra bag for the Ht'er. :lookout:

you explained this to the eBay purchaser and they still want a refund?

I would give the refund, because even though you know you "did right" by them, you cannot make a safe assumption that it is reasonable that they can know that. That is, you clearly stated two snack sized baggies, and they got 1 non snack-sized baggie. You cannot be reasonably comfortable that they KNOW they are getting the deal you proposed.

Also, I wouldn't put any motives on them (with the Southern thing, seed sellers, etc) because we should never ascribe to malice what can perfectly well be explained by stupidity (that's not the way Christ said it, but it's catchier). ;)

R

I "think" what Granny is saying is that she only had 2 of the actual containers as described in the ad....not that she in any way shorted the buyer to make up for a sale to an HTer.
Say she had a variety of baggies, 2 snack sized, 8 sandwich sized and what ever else.
She agreed to sell on Ebay the amount of seed that would fill 2 snack sized bags, then at the lst minute she had someone on HT that wanted to buy a snack sized bag as well. What it seems is that she took a logical leap of faith and combined the ebay sale of 2 snack bags into a larger sandwich size bag, then used one of her last 2 remaining snack bags in order to sell to an HTer .
Clear as mud?
I think that if the person has buyers remorse that she should not be responsible...it's not as if she shorted them any seed..just a small bag. Perhaps you could go buy another container of them and send the buyer their extra bag. :)

I respect you trying to make an ethical choice. Being good does not mean being a pushover.

I have no answer for you but I have a different point.

How much is your feedback rating on ebay worth to you? That in itself would be a determining factor to me no matter who is right.

Incidentally, I left ebay for all the hassles. It's hard to be honest in a place that seems to be full of dishonest people. I just opted out to save myself aggravation.

You hit it right on the nail head. Plus as the ID in paypal stated southern seed dealer I included a note mentioning Ottertail County is in Minnesota - as I did not want to compromise this guys sales integrity.

Even packed in a snack sized baggy because the seeds are so small, it barely registers on my postal scale. I like the idea of selling by a half cup or so. It would save future headaches for me that is for sure.

This is a really generous offer of seeds for the average home grower they would last for years as they only need aprox 35 plants for normal use.

Sigh, there is a part of me that would like to just go buy some snack sized baggies and send him two. But I'm sure that wouldn't be an appropriate Christian action. It is the only item I've ever offered as no refund. I don't gouge on shipping if the calculator is off I refund the difference. Basically I try my best to give an honest deal.

This was my Christmas money this year so I was really jazzed to get 3 last minute sales.

I rarely ever sell on eBay any more. The economy is just to bad to sell small vintage items and expect to make a profit. Then we moved to the farm and finding stores to be able to restock became a pain. But I do pride myself on giving a fair deal, and my feedback was really good.

Either way I will probably get a neg out of it. Honestly it is not that hard to check and see if they fit a snack sized baggy or if you were shorted. My baggies were usually packed so full I could barely close them.

Should have sent the 2 snack sized baggies to the buyer and the bigger bag to the HT'er

Yes, give a refund, you didn't preform as stated.

Why is a Christian raising tobacco? (body is a Temple and all that)

I think your buyer is being difficult, but at the same time you could have used the larger bag to send the seeds to the HTer and sent your ebay buyer his two snack sized bags. I understand saying no refund, but to enforce that when you changed the item (albeit in his favour) seems unethical.

I would offer to make an exception and give him the refund provided he returns the seeds unopened and at his expense.

I think it's pretty simple. If you said no refunds, then there's no refund. If they leave negative feedback, you can contact ebay and have it removed.

I was thinking the same thing about sending the extra to the ht-er - we at least understand that is a deal.

I've read the bible 6-7 times and a few different versions since 7-06 when I became a Christian. It doesn't technically say anything about tobacco. Although that is on my some day list to have a healthier lifestyle. Right now I am more concerned with the rising before dawn thing. And as a new homesteader it just seems prudent to raise what I can.

Yeah I think most likely I will give a refund. Provided their return weighs the same as when I sent it. I do know what it weighed with the packaging postage and growing info - if that is off than I will have to assume some was lifted.

Tell him to send it back and you will put it into two smaller baggies for him, so he won't have to strain the little gray cells...

I'm not sure why you have to drag religion into it. Would the ethics of the situation be any different for a Jew or a Hindu.... I doubt it.

Not sure why you didn't give the ebay person the two snack baggies as promised and use a different size baggie (or some other container such as an envelope) for the HT person. Perhaps the person was buying 1 baggie for someone else. Giving them what they ordered was the correct thing to do and would have been the simplest solution upfront.

Let's consider what happened. You made a commitment to deliver specific quantities packaged in a particular manner. You didn't deliver what you committed to deliver packaged in the manner promised. Many people would not have had a problem with what you did. This person did have a problem - for whatever reason.

Because you did not deliver what you advertised (2 smaller packages) you should provide the refund as long as they return what you sent.

I'm placing an order for cayanne pepper seeds and a friend is piggy backing on my overall seed order. We are each ordering 1/16 of an oz (about 250 seeds) and I expect them to come in separate packages. I don't know that I would demand a refund but I would certainly let the company have an earful for not sending what I ordered the way that I ordered it.

Mike

Mike

I see where you are coming from Mike but this guy did not have a problem for several days. Now because he has discovered that even though I live down south the variety of the seeds are from the north - he makes his living off of selling southern seeds, he DOES have a problem. I truly believe it is buyers remorse. He assumed because of where I live that my variety was southern. Guess he didn't count on my family having come from Ottertail so naturally I would try a variety that most likely would grow here.

Last time I was at wally world buying cheese mac they had two different packages one with all the pretty colors and one with the new white and black box. I bought both - no problem to me if it looks different as long as the product is the same. As far as my shopping experience goes it is rare for something to be differently packaged and not be downsized - I did not do this.

I asked for Christian advice because I am a Christian and I wanted to know if they felt this was ethical. Or moral. And what other Christians would do.

On the flip side there is a part of me that thinks I could request him to send it back so I can repackage it in two snack sized baggies and then just keep the extra seeds - maybe send them to the ht-er who bought the other seeds (I am pretty sure they would not complain). And of course return his shipment in the proper form.

In my heart I know I didn't cheat him. In hindsight I know I should have told the ht-er that I had run out of that sized baggies please take this instead and I will toss in extra.

But in any case I have already decided to refund the money for the item provided it weighs the same. Although the seeds are hard to weigh I do know how much it weighed packaged. Still have the same envelopes, tape, paper and ink so if he returns it and it is short than I don't think I will refund it. If he returns it and it weighs the same no problem.

I think "for your peace of mind" you should refund, because it seems to be weighing on your mind. And of course you know now if this situation comes up, don't do it like this again or take other actions, or contact the buyers to explain, etc.

But sometimes in the old gut you just gotta do what you gotta do, even if a tad says you truly didn't "short them intentionally" etc.

he didnt get what he bought...may be he had them resold in 2 sanck sized baggies... and cannot produce what he promised????

Send him 2 empty snack sized baggies, tell him he can keep the larger one as a bonus, and remember him in your prayers.

I don't blame your buyer at all.

eBay buyers (inlcuding myself) have ONLY the item description to go with and that's what we focus on, for some type of accuracy.

You were selling by the bag, he purchased two and you sent hime one. Even if he is possbily getting more seeds, he is not sure of that and you have sold an item that was package "not as described". Maybe if you would have cleared the package combining before shipping, the buyer may have been all right with it.

Stand your ground on the "no refunds" if you wish, but since you changed the packaging, the responsiblity for the conflict lies with you, IMO.

The "Christian" thing to do to make the deal right.

And not to totally go off-thread with this, but this is one of my pet peeves. I'm a bit disappointed that, in all the time we've had and all the smart folks there are out there thinking about stuff, we have not been able to establish moral and ethical rules that are independent from religion.

There are certain rules of fairness and justice that allow societies to work well. But, when it comes time to explain why we should behave in the manner that is most ethical, we invariably fall back to some religious philosophy.

I don't care if a society is Christian, Jew, atheist, or whatever. Certain things are ethical and moral and others are not.

And it is moral to hold up your end of a contract, whether that contract is written, spoken or made over the Internet. If you didn't provide exactly what was promised, you reneged on your part of the contract. The buyer is not obligated to pay. Period.

If you can work something out with the buyer, fine. Everyone will be happy. But the very least you can do, from an ethical standpoint, is to not force the other party in the contract you violated to fulfill his end of the deal.

yup..my thoughts are the same..

She didn't have to, she chose to. She is a Christian, and wants advice on how to proceed in a Christian manner. There is nothing wrong with that. What I have a problem with is people who object to those who dare to mention Christianity in everyday conversation.

*******************************
And therein lies your problem when posting on this forum.
When I first started reading this thread, I knew immediately,
that there would be some who would spout off without any
regard for what you were trying to do and also some that would
give advice without taking into consideration the caveats that you
have now mentioned.
As has already been seen, some have tried to put you in their
'what a Christian should be box' by "explaining" other scripture
taken out of context to you. It might have been better to have
presented this on the Christian Forum.
That being now said, I admire your determination to do the right thing
and was initially thinking along the same path that deaconjim already mentioned.
However, that still puts the thing together AFTER the fact; you had promised
in your ad on eBay, that the seeds would be packaged in *(2) two separate small baggies.
And even though the ad stated, that you don't make refunds, you also clarified that you actually
do if the error is on your side.

I believe you know what you need to do.

Oh snap! :doh: You guys are Christian? :eek:

Now it makes sense. :D

If you had followed through on the posting you made as you made it you wouldn't have this problem. You made the error in judgement and you should issue the refund.

I don't know the dollar amount involved, (and that wouldn't sway me NOT to send the refund) but for the amount of time invested in it already and the headache, I'd issue the refund and place them up for sale again. If they are that desirable of seeds someone else will buy them.

Did you indicate the number of seeds per bag or just say it was two bags of seeds? If you just said two bags of seeds and they only got one, I can see why they are upset. If you said two bags of 25 seeds each and they got a single bag with over 50 seeds, I dont see why its a problem.

When I buy something on Ebay, I expect and want exactly what is discribed or in the photo, not something else. He won a auction for two items, not one. If I had received the one bag, I would be mad as heck. It does not matter what the buyer is going to do with the item, reseller ect. They did not get what they thought they paid for, it does'nt matter that you gave extra seeds, how do they know that. Give them thier money back, let them keep the seeds and take this as a learning lesson. There is no Christian way, just the right way. Just my humble opinion.

Daniel

Wouldn't it have been easier just to buy more baggies?

The Christian Thing To Do?

I tried to find eBay rules in The Holy Bible, but I found none. I reread The Ten Commandments and found no reference to eBay. To get a ruling from the highest court, you need to pray and wait for a sign :)

RF

This was my thought too. I've never bought from ebay but where ever I buy I expect to get what I pay for.

I know usually a store. If they advertise something they have to stand by what the add says.

Phew!

I think I fanally found the answer:

Not many seeds, but one.

So, he should be happy with one package.

Or, is that one seed?

I think I'm confused, again.

Let me join in with the "you didn't deliver the item as described" crowd. It doesn't matter if the buyer changed their mind because of the seed type. You still sent a different product than the one advertised. If I was the buyer I would be upset.

Buy more baggies. Communicate with the buyer before mailing their item and ask if it is alright with them if you package both contents in a single baggie. Either of those solutions would have prevented this.

Kayleigh

I'm sure we can all say what SHOULD have been done.

Can't go back in time, so "shoulda, woulda, coulda."

For now, if the buyer doesn't understand that you actually gave MORE because you used a bigger bag AND tossed in extra, well, just refund the money. Some people really hold to the "letter of the law" and there's no pleasing them.

No matter what the buyer's intentions (whether he wanted Northern or Southern seeds), he's got you on a technicality.

Tell him to send you back the seeds, refund him, leave him neutral feedback, and chalk it up to experience.

IMO, of course.

Thank you for reminding me to take it to a higher court. :)


I did offer a refund provided the item was returned at the same weight, and stated no money would be refunded until the item was returned and received by me. At this point the buyer got testy and declared they will file complaints with both paypal and eBay. No word from him since then, and I have been checking but as of yet no reports have been filed.

If they file a negative, you are able to post a response in your defense. It's the New Year...try to put the unpleasant experience behind you. Life is too short to sweat the small change...

I did a little research on ebay. I think I found the auction ad that we are discussing here. The ad states and I quote: "A snack sized baggie full of Otter Tail Tobacco seeds". If I won the bid on this auction, I would expect TWO snack sized baggies Full of Otter Tail Tobacco seeds, no ifs, and or buts. I think the term "Full" describes a filled bag. If you had the bags packed for shipping and someone else wanted a third bag, why in the world would you then repackage the snack size bags. Just fill a third bag with additional seeds. Opening, repackaging and moving seeds around in a order to create a third bag just doesn't sound right. The first post in this thread stated
"It was a multiple auction for Tobacco seeds and the guy bought 2. At the last minute I also got contacted from an ht-er for seeds. The auction stated they would be packed in snack sized baggies, but I only had two snack baggies left. So I took them and dumped them in a larger baggy and tossed in a bunch of loose seeds as a bonus. This way I was able to fill both orders."

What gets me is the phrase "This way I was able to fill both orders." In my opinon this emplys that the contents of two snack size baggies were required to fullfill the third order. This would make sense because why would it be needed to even open the first two baggies?

Please, I'm not trying to start a fight with anyone, just the way that it appears. If anyone ever watches the JUDGE JUDY show, she has a great saying. "If it doesn't make sense, then something is wrong"

I have info for the ad, PM me if needed.

Daniel

As a business the onus is on you to return the money and to await the return of the goods, (IMO) as he did when he ordered from you.

From an ethical business standpoint; IMO, the shipping fees both to him and his return fees to send the seeds back should also be refunded since he didn't get the advertised product which he purchased in good faith.