MH workers: State punished good mothers and good children

There are pregnant girls under the age of 16, EVERY SINGLE DAY IN AMERICA. And we dont take them away from the mothers? We help them RAISE them, their families help them raise them, and if they cant take care of them, they give them up for adoption, but its THEIR CHOICE.

Why is this any different? Why do these mothers get them taken AWAY?

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Enjoy this life, be in this life but not be of it.

I was thinking of an area outside of Vidor, Texas, that we called the "Four Oaks Ranch Road community". Also areas between Caney Creek and Fred Texas, as well as a community outside of Tabor, Texas.

In light of the availability of cable television, these areas may have modernized in the last 15 years since I have been there...however, that was what they were like when *I* knew them.

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

THANK YOU! Someone finally understood what I was trying to say! I must be having extreme difficulty in writing today.

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

Grandmother had met her husband, after all, he was the preacher of their church. Grandfather was 31 when they wed, and had been a widower for 10 years. They were not, however, related. Grandmother wasn't "forced" to marry, per se, but it was arranged through the family and not through her. If left to her own choices, she likely would not have chosen my grandfather. Grandfather used to tease her that he had waited five years for her to grow up so they could get married.

I cannot imagine that in such a small community as the FLDS compound, that the girls had never met the men they married.

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

CaliannG, if it were just a matter of the one compound, I would agree that there would be a good chance that the girls had met the man assigned to them but it isn't based on the one compound. I assume that Warren Jeffs must have had some idea that inbreeding wasn't the best idea so I believe that they are associated with 2 other compounds. One is in BC and there are girls that were taken in the raid that are actually Canadians and not one member of the cult has really come up with any viable explanation on that at all and they actually refuse to address the issue to the point where they will not even identify which of these children are actually Canadian citizens so they can go home to their parents. The mothers up here claim they were simply down their visiting their grandparents.

I keep seeing people argue the legal age to marry but I believe that Texas would only recognize the first marriage so if a subsequent wife were a minor, it is actually not a recognized marriage in Texas or any other state so I'm not sure the legal age of marriage would be a relevant argument and if it was, it would certainly only apply to the first wife. The cult itself seems to grasp the finer points of that law because they have stated, as recently as Warren Jeffs trial that all subsequent marriages are spiritual in nature and not actually legally sanctioned by the state.

*nods* As I stated, I never thought what that religion does was right.

Isn't the other compound in Utah or something? If one compound was raided for all of this, why not all of them?

I know of some fundamentalist groups that *do* follow the laws (believe that 18 is quite soon enough to get married), but that refuse to get a marriage license, believing that marriage is between two people and God, and that by getting the State involved they are cheapening the spirituality of the union.

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Peace,
Caliann

"First, Show me in the Bible where it says you can save someone's soul by annoying the hell out of them." -- Chuck

I don`t know about Utah but I do know that the group in BC is under heavy scrutiny and they have stated they feel they will be raided soon. I can`t speak for others but I feel that if the groups wish to practice polygamy, that would be their own business - as long as all parties are of an age appropriate to understand the implications of their actions but Warren Jeffs opted to head the group toward much younger girls and they are denied the right to say no. I also have a huge problem with the number of young boys being ousted from the cult. I`ve raised a daughter and 2 sons and there are certainly times when children will test boundaries but as a parent, it is my job to teach them right and wrong within the parameters of our society, not throw them out when they breach minor rules. I`m not brainwashed so maybe I can`t understand but I would think that any good mother would fight tooth and nail to keep all her children with her, not just the girls and if these women have the best interests of the children in mind, why would they not stand up and identify the Canadian girls so they can go home to their families since they are supposedly just visiting their grandparents. I would also think that a good and loving mother would assist in identifying the children rather than encouraging them to lie about their ages and identity (I would think that lying would be against the teachings of their faith). If they were to be honest about the identities of the children, it would sure speed up the process of getting them back in their own homes.

I agree. I don't agree that polygamy is a correct lifestyle, but as long as it's consenting adults, it's their own business. The problem is when children are forced to participate.

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I have hesitated to post to this thread as the subject very closely parallels my own story but feel the need to put a little perspective on this.

I was brought up in a group somewhat similar to this. They were a splinter group who broke off the (Catholic?) church in the mid 1800's and for decades were little more than a Christian Bretheren group. However, around the mid-1950's a man took over who steered the group severely to the right and took an iron hand control which apparently has tightened to this day. I was raised in that group until I was 16 years old and through a very dark and difficult time I left with my parents, two brothers and four sisters. We left one sister behind who most of us have had no contact with for 26 years now. There have been many families split up by the priests and the main leader who deem this necessary for doing God's work. Many have been kicked out because the priests have decided they are sinners.

My point here is that I now have perspective both from inside the group and from the outside. When I was in there, we did as we were told pretty much without question. The "priests" were looked up to with respect and a little fear because if you didn't toe the line you could get kicked out or go to hell. If the priests, through the main leader, decided something was right or wrong, that was considered the word of God and it was accepted by everyone. We were taught that only those who were in the church were saved and everyone else in the world was basically going to hell. They never married young girls off at 13 but if you weren't married or pretty much engaged by about 20 there were some eyebrows raised.

When we left, it was more difficult than I can possibly tell you. We had to deal with not only losing contact with most of our friends and loved ones but also questioning everything we had grown up with, our morals, our way of life, bible teachings, everything. I now have the perspective of seeing things from the outside and I now know how corrupted the path was that we were on.

We can call them brainwashed but they consider us brainwashed. I"ve struggled for years trying to explain this concept to many people and still not sure of I can without someone experiencing both sides.

This does not mean I condone marrying girls and having babies at 13 at all. I think a girl should marry of her own free will someone of her own free choice when she has a lot more life knowledge then anyone can have at 13. What age...I don't know...18? 20? 25? 30? Who's to say a particular age? I also have no problem with Polygamy, if someone feels comfortable entering a relationship like that, who am I to tell them it's wrong? The Bible is full of people who had hundreds of wives and concubines, it seems to me more of a logistical decision than a moral one. How about a woman having more than one husband?

There probably isn't room on this entire forum to post all I want to say but I think this Texas situation was handled in about as wrong a way as it possibly could have been. the complaint should have been investigated and if a crime was committed in violation of the law of the land, charges and arrests of the specific perpetrators should hav followed.

Finally, in my opinion, organized religion is the single biggest danger facing mankind today. Be a good person, treat others the way you want to be treated and peace be with you.

I must add here that I am not criticizing anyone who follows whatever spiritual path they choose. We are all on a spiritual journey and I think everyone wants to find peace in the end. I have a problem with groups of people telling others how to live their lives. Read the bible, watch the news, listen to others opinions, read up on other religions and use all the facts to make your own informed decision on the correct path for you.

Truckinguy, I don't disagree with any of your points but I do feel that based on time I have spent working in a domestic abuse shelter, that it is very hard to get children to speak openly and honestly when they are in an environment with their abusers. Another problem I see with leaving some children within the cult and removing others is that it would give the adults time to coach the remaining children in such a way that would disprove a child/minor's testimony.

Well I have read this thread and several others about this situation and fully agree that for some old geezer to be having sex with a kid is a reason for a very long prison term. Now once again where are these old perverts and why are they not in jail awaiting trial ?? I have mentioned this several times and no one seems able to answer that and everyone just keeps on going on about these evel child rapist. So once again I am asking all the knowledgeable people on this forum. Where are these rapist and why are they not in jail ? I did read that one guy was arrested and was released later due to the fact that the state have not credible evidence and and so he was very quietly released. So whats up folks can someone fill me in?

I guess nobody's answering because we don't know.

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[QUOTE=muzzelloader;3091099]Well I have read this thread and several others about this situation and fully agree that for some old geezer to be having sex with a kid is a reason for a very long prison term. Now once again where are these old perverts and why are they not in jail awaiting trial ??

As I understand the situation, the mothers are not being honest about the idenity of the fathers. And the cowardly old geezers having sex with the young girls have left the area and are hiding out. This group at times takes away children from the birth mother and gives them to another woman to raise, so CPS is still trying to identify both mothers and fathers. They revile our way of life, yet feel free to collect welfare checks.

Nancy
N. Texas

muzzelloader, I'd be happy to respond to your statement. Firstly, one old pervert is in jail, his name is Warren Jeffs. On the outstanding matter(s), even in Texas a fair trail is warranted and that trial should be fair to the accused and the wronged so there will be a period of investigation, charges where appropriate and upon conviction, jail time is meted out. In my opinion, I'd far rather see a thorough and cautious investigation so any charges see conviction when brought to trial rather than being thrown out on technicalities.

Yes, I understand that and I have seen that happen. I"ve also seen young children turn on their parents denouncing them as evil because they were told that by the "priests". The true tragedy here is that the children will be deeply affected by all this. These children are probably trying to now rationalize what they are being told by the child welfare workers against what they have been raised in. Those who have children, imagine your children being taken from you and told by someone else that the lifestyle their Daddy and Mommy are living is wrong, for whatever reason. Right or wrong, imagine their confusion. I"m not trying to justify the lifestyle of the FLDS but my heart breaks for the children because no matter what comes out of this, the children will suffer.

I have tried to help many young people who have left or been kicked out of my former church, some have dealt with their situation, some have turned to drugs and other dangerous lifestyles but all have had a horribly difficult time of it. I almost didn't make it but I was saved by four new friends who I met after leaving. Ironic, these were people who were never raised as I was and who I was tought were "evil".

Back when I was in the church, I probably would have drank the Cool-Aide if I was told to.

Bumpus (sadly) I stand corrected on both points.

ar

I have dealt with CS. Here are facts and this has taken years to get the Love back in my heart for people
1. CS is a bureaucracy and is paid for how many children in there service. That is per child (Here in TN is $30,000)
2. They from everything that I have seen the lowest low life scum. For anyone that a part of them and not the devils scum I apologize but I have only seen scum.
3. They are trying to take the high road here but that is a crock. Unless they are going in to the school system and EVERY under age pregnancy they step in and remove they are nothing more than hypocrites in the highest order.
4. The state of Texas with their scum CS is using a wrong (YES WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS WRONG WRONG WRONG) to bring people in the mass herd. That is the only thing that they are doing.
5. If a person that was on that compound and did not practice under age sex and had children and deserve to have their children removed then Obama is a terrorist and racist guilty for having been around Ayeres and Wright. I disagree with that logic but everyone is happy to attack the people in the compound even innocent ones.
This is only my opinion and I try very hard to love people but with CS it is trying.