What will the working class poor do?

seedspreader · #21 04/19/08, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wind in Her Hair

Having been "working class poor" (below the national poverty level) for a portion of my life, and having had grandparents who were "working class poor", its my opinion that its "always" been that way. I wouldn't worry so much about the working class poor, they'll survive. They always have. Thats what they are -survivors. We could stand to learn a few lessons from those folks, if you ask me. I know I did.
[SNIPPED FOR BREVITIES SAKE]

I'll change my habits, my consumption practices, my dependence on cheap groceries, my addiction to cheap gasoline ...and I'll find alternative sources and methods of living well below my means instead of well above it.

Well, although I have the same attitude as you, we aren't just talking about me or you.

The reality is that if EVERYONE on HT believed the same way, lived the same way (they don't) that it wouldn't be a drop in the bucket as far as the voting majorities.

On top of that, beyond the entitled feelings that most Americans have, is the total disconnect between that status/entitlement and hard scrabble survival.

In other words, I KNOW what a good % of the people will do here, and I ain't worried a bit about the type of folks we will find here.

My suggestion is that we may find that we aren't in a simple time of "buckle down and buck up".

On top of that, compound that with those entitled folks who become the working class poor and don't even have a clue how to buckle down and buck up, but see their entitlements and the inequity (perceived or real... doesn't matter) of their surroundings. They've voted for whoever will give them the best and most for their vote. And the gap grows wider between the people.

I know you don't see it, but there is a certain tension even in your post talking about all those entitled.

The question isn't really what you will do during hard times, but will America do when we keep giving and voting towards more entitlements and the WCP don't see any other way out.

Historically, I think it could turn out to be more of a Storming of the Bastille or Bolshevik revolution than a "it's hard times, and we will snap out of it".

Today's Americans want to be led and fed and put to bed.

Grandmotherbear · #22 04/19/08, 09:39 AM

The PROBLEM is that most people who identify themselves as "middle class" aren't- they are "working poor" and just don't realize it. Oh, they believe they are middle class because their desired level of consumption is middle class-but their INCOME is NOT what economists define as Middle Class.
This year Grandfatherbear and I made Middle Class for the FIRST TIME!!

Now, I used to think I was middle class. Back during reagan's presidency, we used to read Donald Regan's words on the Plight of the Middle Class and joke that his figures were only good for inside the Beltway- High Priced Washington- because we didn't even make HALF what he defined as a "middle class" income and we were middle class too! Guess what? We finally woke up and smelled the coffee! We weren't middle class despite being a well paid paralegal and an RN. We were working poor!!It helped us realize what was going on with GFBs sister, who had an income even less than his, subscribed to Twn and Country Magazine, wanted her boyfriend to buy her a $350,000 townhouse (in 1988!) and shopped at Macy's, and Saks.She was middleclass in tastes, and totally ignoring the reality of her income. Just like we had done.
Actually ever since Grandfatherbear became a lawyer our income has gone down every year. He finally is back where he was just before law school.

In 1994, when I hurt my back and was out of work for 4 months, I watched a TV show where 4 economists debated the "Plight of the Middle Class". All 4 agreed on the basic defination- a family of 4 with an aftertax income of $100,000 to $250,000. What does that translate to in 2008 dollars?

Most serious revolutions happen when the working poor become truly aware of the differences in consumption between them and the upper classes. it happened in Russia and in China when increased literacy and communications made vast areas of the population aware and they became radicalized.

Say what you want about FDR his economic policies staved off a bloody revolution in America and helped preserve the Union.

RedTartan · #23 04/19/08, 09:51 AM

I hear you, Grandmotherbear. I considered myself middle class until I read an article that said I wasn't. I'm poor! Not even upper-level poor! My head was stuck in the 1950's I guess. I have a house that I'm paying on and a car that's paid off. My place is nice so I thought I'm middle class. Not according to economists. I have to say, as silly as it is, that my feelings were hurt a little. LOL.

I really don't know if I'll ever be middle class. In Ohio, if your making in excess of 100K a year, you're living high on the hog, boy!

RedTartan

fordy · #24 04/19/08, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher

Labor and wages are just like anything else in the market place; supply and demand works if the government keeps its nose out of things.

If you have a business you have to pay enough to get workers but not so much that your end product cost so much you can't sell it for enough to make a profit.

If you offer pay that is too low you aren't going to find workers or you will have a HUGE turn over rate. Very few businesses can survive with a large worker turn over because it takes time and money to train workers. I see this everyday around here you have what some people call the ultimate no skilled jobs, food service/fast food places offering 9+ dollars an hour just to get workers.

The problem is the government has screwed the system. Not only are businesses required to pay a minimum wage the businesses are competing with the 'wages' the government offers people to stay home and not work. When I worked in fast food I had people tell me they could stay home and make more money than they could working. Add to that the fact a business has to pay the government (in taxes and 'fees') just about as much an employee's base wage which doubles the labor cost. That's why it makes more business sense for a company to pay time and a half to an employee to work over time than to hire more workers. Its also why you see every business that can replacing workers with machines. Even McDees is doing it.

...................The government has "screwed the system" alright , by , allowing millions of Illegals to work illEGally in this country which has allowed large corporations to pay substandard wages and NO bene's : when , without the illegals , they'ed have to pay wages high enough too attract workers to their nasty working conditions ! , fordy

OUVickie · #25 04/19/08, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedspreader

Or am I just missing it and there isn't really a problem and this is the way it's always been?

I think it's always been this way - there have always been poor people. However, after WWII and FDR's help in passing social reforms, it got much better for Americans. Elderly people rec'd pensions (Soc. Sec. Act) and instead of food stamps, people got "commodities" - which actually helped the farmers. Men that were Veterans were able to get VA loans to buy homes and the Work Conservation Corp. put a lot of men and women to work on WPA projects, which kept them from being homeless and hungry.
So those of us who were in the baby boomer category have experienced more comfort in our lives than those that came before us and possibly, those who will live after we're gone.

Here in the U.S. there aren't many of us who know what it's like to be "dirt poor" like those who came before us.
Christ said "the poor will be with you always" - and that includes the working class poor, because it's in the interest of business to keep the MW low. I do think the number of working class poor will increase, because the cost of living will keep going up, but wages won't and people will barely be able to afford the necessities. However, that pretty much fulfills prophecy, from what I've learned.

Tracy in Idaho · #26 04/19/08, 10:25 AM

I was reading a blog where they were talking about their friends were *shocked* to learn that they earned less than $90K in NEW YORK CITY! Gasp. I'm thinking to myself, holy cow -- can you imagine what they'd think if they knew how much we earned in Idaho? ;-)

Tracy

OUVickie · #27 04/19/08, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seedspreader

Well, although I have the same attitude as you, we aren't just talking about me or you.

Historically, I think it could turn out to be more of a Storming of the Bastille or Bolshevik revolution than a "it's hard times, and we will snap out of it".

Today's Americans want to be led and fed and put to bed.

I think this is very true. I believe that's why the inner-cities are getting more and more violent. People who grow up in the city and don't have any interest in learning to be self-sufficient are at the greatest risk of becoming very poor.
That's the problem with too much entitlement, it creates dependence on the system, instead of self-suffiency.

I do believe in taking care of our elderly and our children, such as Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid programs, because from a Missionary standpoint that's the right thing to do - I believe that system was created because we grew up in a Christian society who was raised to believe in taking care of the poor. However, we allowed our government to go overboard and it created an entitlement system that grew out of control.

The best thing we can do is teach our children and those around us how to be self-sufficient again.

Callieslamb · #28 04/19/08, 10:40 AM

I think I will have to agree with WIHH here. Excellent way to put it!

We have as much of a 'greed' problem as we have with rising prices. So many have bought into the "I deserve" mentality-as if there is a basic standard of right-to-own list or something. We deserve what we can pay for in cash. People don't want simple, older homes, they want new ones and larger ones. They want convenience and ease. We want and want and try to figure a way to get it NOW. Banks are only too happy to comply with our greed by making credit easy to get -isn't this basically how they stay alive now? Since we are greedy, we don't look before we leap and soon we are in hot water - and screaming foul! Those nasty bankers caused all of this!

We don't deserve anything - except to be treated fairly. We each have the right to pursue our own paths. We deserve to sweat and toil and work and accomplish what we will. And we will be better people because of it. Our children will have a better understanding of the world and how to get along in it with out holding their hands constantly in the "out" position.

What will the WCP do? who knows. I think what is coming for our country is going to be harder than anything we have seen before. It is those that have lived within their means and have worked to have "something" that will have the better chance. We can only blame ourselves. We are too afraid of allowing someone to go hungry or without. The fact that we even divide people into the "haves" and the "have nots" is telling to me. Even the standard is what we 'have' not what we 'do' with our lives.

What will the working class poor do? Pray. Hopefully, they will pray that God will forgive them/us for their/our foolishnesses and prevent our total destruction.

OUVickie · #29 04/19/08, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tracy in Idaho

I was reading a blog where they were talking about their friends were *shocked* to learn that they earned less than $90K in NEW YORK CITY! Gasp. I'm thinking to myself, holy cow -- can you imagine what they'd think if they knew how much we earned in Idaho? ;-)

Tracy

LOL! Same here. The average two income Okie family probably earns less than $40-50K.
The definitions of "poor" and "middle class" are puzzling to me. I keep thinking, we as Americans have no idea what the word "poor" really means.
If we made $90K, I'd feel like a millionaire!!

catahoula · #30 04/19/08, 10:48 AM

Maybe we could eat cake.

**ladycat** · #31 04/19/08, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tracy in Idaho

I was reading a blog where they were talking about their friends were *shocked* to learn that they earned less than $90K in NEW YORK CITY! Gasp. I'm thinking to myself, holy cow -- can you imagine what they'd think if they knew how much we earned in Idaho? ;-)

Tracy

Do you ever see these television interviews and read articles about all these people who have gotten themselves in so deep they don't know what to do?

For instance, you'll have a young couple with 2 small children making a $3000/mo house payment, 2 or 3 car payments, $500/wk for food, a few hundred $$$ a month for cell phone and satellite TV bills, $50K or $100K credit card debt, and the wife will be buying so many designer clothes her walk in closet is packed with them that still have the tags on them.

How do these people get all this money in the first place? What kind of jobs do they have? There seems to be tons of them out there. Those are the people the media focuses on, but the typical American just doesn't have that kind of income.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Callieslamb

I think what is coming for our country is going to be harder than anything we have seen before.

That's what I'm afraid of, because the current generation is so completely helpless. They don't even know how to cook rice or replace a missing button on their clothing.

They depend on convenience foods, convenience services, and if something is slightly damaged or just doesn't look new any more, throw it out and get a new one.

**ladycat** · #32 04/19/08, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catahoula

Maybe we could eat cake.

LOL I think we have a society as oblivious as Marie Antoinette was.

Unfortunately most people only know how to make cake from a mix at best, or at worst they just pick one up from the bakery.

pcwerk · #33 04/19/08, 11:07 AM

Good discussion! I think your concerns are justified SS...as we are
heading toward economic/political disaster. The end of "cheap" fossil
fuels will be the main driver to events. As I was just reading in the preface
of "Permaculture" by David Holmgren, we are about to experience the slide
down on the other side of the bell curve ;-( The human population will start
to contract, mass-starvation will occur, etc. It won't be pretty.
As far as what to do? Facing the problem in the clear light of reason and
w/o prejudice is the first thing to do. We need to (IMHO):
1) End the consolidation of the media by Big Media. (When was the last time
you saw a real discussion on the effects of "free trade" on the working class,
or the effects of the loss of unions in the US?)
2) Initiate a full public financed election system. I think the working-class
isn't served by the Paid in Full by the Rich (i.e. Corporations) system we have
now. Anyone looking at the effects of all the "free trade" pacts that have been signed in by Dems and Repubs alike should know this is self evident!

Anyhoo, this is a good start. We should at least try this b4 we start
"storming the Bastille" ;-) I'm off to go "pratice my farming" for the weekend!
See you guys/gals Monday.
pc

Freeholder · #34 04/19/08, 11:21 AM

This has been a very good discussion. I'm really glad to see that people are waking up about what's happening with the economy -- I know that, as much as we'd like to, we can't save everyone (because most of them won't listen), but at least with some warning we can do as much as possible to protect ourselves and our families.

We've always been working poor, too, though I've never considered myself poor. It seems like money is the measure of everything, both success and poverty, and yet, from my point of view, many of the very rich are not at all successful, in fact they are abject failures. They've failed at raising their children right and at caring about the people who work for them, and about what their company is doing to the world around them. On the other hand, many of the 'poor' are very successful in those same areas. And some poor people are better educated, and have happier and richer lives than any rich person. So I think when we base our definitions solely on how much money a person has, things get skewed away from what should really be valued.

In post #14 was a quote: "We drive, they starve." I wonder if the person who said that has actually considered what will happen to the starving people when we in the USA have to stop driving?! There will be FAR more starving people then than there are now!!!

Kathleen

Peacock · #35 04/19/08, 11:51 AM

Oh my GOSH, I actually agree 100% with both WIHH and Marlene here. Amazing.

Though there really are poor people barely making do, a great number of these "working poor" also have big-screen TV's, cell phones, X-boxes, etc. It is really amazing, some of the people you meet who can't pay the rent, can't afford nutritious food, but have somehow managed to acquire electronic items because they're considered a "necessity."

I'd say the first thing the working class will do is re-align its priorities.

No, that won't solve everything. But as a society - not just on an individual basis - we have got to change our value system. In today's world you are judged by the STUFF you have, not on your character. It's OK to steal, lie, cheat, whatever you need to do to get your stuff, but to get it by working hard and saving up? Bo-ring! You're actually considered to be a little stupid for doing so, it's like doing things the hard way.

I'm sure most of the "working class poor" on here are different. This is just what I see out in real life. So don't write to me saying "oh no, it's not like that here." Fine, just continue to set a good example for the rest of 'em.

Tracy Rimmer · #36 04/19/08, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by country friend

I have seen this day coming for many years We are full time homesteaders have been now for almost 11 years . We do not make a lot of money but every thing is paid off . We have most of are own food and if things get real bad we can give up the truck and car . team of mules and two buggy horses .
I feel realy bad for folks starting out in this because it is going to get bad for it gets any better .
P.s. I do not post much my spelling is not what it should , but I do not know how to use spell check when I post.
Indiana Country Friend Jack

Jack -- you say you've been full time homesteaders for 11 years -- I'd be VERY MUCH interested to hear of the things you've learned along the way.

And I don't care about your spelling -- I'm more interested in hearing about the lifestyle of someone who has managed to do this full time for that long and still pay off their bills in a timely fashion. Stories like that are inspirational to those of us who aren't quite so far along the path.

Please share more.

As for the OP, Bob, I think that the working poor are hosed, quite honestly, and they're not alone. The more jobs we ship overseas because they involve "labor" or because unions insist on ridiculous wages for work that companies can have done in India or elsewhere for a third the price... well, anyone who has taken any sort of economics course (and most who have ever shopped around for anything) can understand what is happening, and will continue to happen.

If the governments of BOTH of our countries would worry less about supplementing the incomes of those at the low end of the scale and worry more about keeping jobs in our countries, we'd all be a lot better off.

Of course, people have to be willing to work, in that case. When did "work" become a dirty word, anyhow?

ETA -- WIHH is correct -- it's not the TRULY working poor that I'm talking about here, when I think about it -- folks who have always "made do" will continue to "make do" and survive -- they know how to rely on themselves -- it's those who are a little higher on the income scale, who are still considered "poor", but also SEE THEMSELVES AS POOR. The "working middle class" is a good way to put it.

Tracy Rimmer · #37 04/19/08, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarleneS

There really is something to the idea that people are or will become what they think.

Instead of thinking of yourself and your nation as going into a deep dark hole without any light or any possiblity of ever seeing light again...why not think of this "on the down side" period as a correction, or the transisition into a correction for things that need correcting?

It's surprising for me to actually hear fears and compliants from people who's common interest is getting back to basics, making do, being self sufficient, and/or living a simplier life.

It's actually a good thing that people might have to stop jumping into the automobiles and running into town for a single errand. That food is not as available - might make it also possible that the food that is available is safer, tastier, and therefore better for us.
If families have to give up some of today's readily available entertainment such as computers, televisions, other electronics, and such -- guess what they are likely to be doing --finding things to do as a family. Isn't that great news we can be thankful for in a down turning economy?

When you see your neighbors struggling to put food on the table - you as a self-sufficient, food producing family will be able to share with them, and teach them how to grown more of their own food -- what a learning experience that will be for you and your family.

And please no more of this political talk about who's fault it is that the housing market is crashing, that banks/mortgage companies who lent money to people who could not afford said housing are going under, that it's the fault of labor unions...for it is the fault of each and everyone of us who did as little as possible as long as we had the opportunities afforded us at the expense of others...it's the fault of each and everyone of us that were do busy to pay attention to what was being decided for us by others...

We've all had it coming -- and now it's up to each and everyone of us to pick where we are going to go from here -- are we going to start rebuilding a better life for ourselves and more importantly for our children, grandchildren? Or are we going to whine ourselves into our graves?

Wow...I'm not sure where that came from but I certainly feel better having had the opportunity to have said it

Hugs,
Marlene

You always make me think, Marlene, and then my mind takes me off on new tangents, and I start to read more on topics that lead to other topics....

Thank you for both putting my jumbled thoughts into words, and leading me to educate myself on topics further than I might otherwise have done. Your words are often blunt, Marlene, but they're always thought-provoking and, at least for me, lead to further consideration of things that I might otherwise have just skated over.

Thanks

bumpus · #38 04/19/08, 12:25 PM

.
When NAFT passed, it opened the field for everyone to share in the profits world wide.
America no longer had a Monopoly of the world market of sales and manufacturing.

It will be like an equal playing field for the world now.

If the average wage in third world countries is $.10 ad hour about a dollar a day, and the average is around $7.00 hour, or $56.00 dollars a day in America

That average would be $7.00 + $.10 cents = $7.10 divided by 2 = $3.55 hour average all over the world as the wages will even out as time goes on.

Don't believe that, watch and see.

AND NO BENIFITS EITHER.

EXCEPT SOME PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE A JOB,
IF THEY ARE WILLING TO WORK CHEAP ! ! !

bumpus
.

**ladycat** · #39 04/19/08, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bumpus

.
When NAFT passed, it opened the field for everyone to share in the profits world wide.
America no longer had a Monopoly of the world market of sales and manufacturing.

It will be like an equal playing field for the world now.

NAFTA sure was a boon for Mexico.

Read this http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications...9/frmay99g.pdf (PDF) and see how NAFTA opened the doors for US food companies to move all their operations to Mexico. (That's a 1999 publication. The problem has gotten far worse since then).

bumpus · #40 04/19/08, 01:01 PM

.
Mexico is losing much of there work and jobs to China and other countries who will work much cheaper.

Mexicans are losing jobs, and many of there factories have been closing, and the migration north is getting stronger.

OH ...They cut hole in Bush's fences.

bumpus
.