Please tell me I am not completely crazy.

Just teach the method and leave the Indian side show out of it.

If you can get a few "real" indians to teach it great, but I wouldnt push the angle.

some of the NA's are pretty touchy about the exploitation thing.

i agree with cnumb.

i'd expect the "real" NA's to be offended.

we have a group like that here- call themselves the "overhill cherokees." they like to dress up in what they imaginei indians look like and dance around doing dances they imagine indians did. they are quite serious about it.

All my teachers, all my ancestors, say not to make money on the Indians. Please do not become yet another one in the long chain of those who have taken the land and destroyed the culture and then sought to reap profit off those they destroyed. I have cried enough, and I have stood up and made ruckus enough, at events where artifacts dug from the graves of my ancestors are bought and sold. I have decried those in the dominant society, and also have stood up to those among Native peoples who sell the sacredness passed down by the forefathers. I have seen enough deceit, where innocent and legitimate men that some refer to as "medicine men" have been duped into ceremonies from which some white huckster made money without their knowledge. I have seen what it does to them, if they find out, and how it hangs on their hearts to have crossed that line, even unknowingly.

I have stood with pitifully poor Indian people and consoled them after the whites came to their reservation to "befriend and help" them, then brought equipment and contracts and promises of royalty money to record their songs, the old songs passed down to them by their fathers, only for the singers to find out when the whites left that the contracts they signed were for $1 and no royalties (the resulting CD sold in the tens of thousands and is still being sold today...it is on Amazon!).

This that you plan to do is a disrespectful thing, according my teachers and my ancestors, if there is even a hint of money made from it. No good will come from it, that way. If you wish to host gatherings for whites who want to learn more about the Native and Red Path ways, gather donations from them to fly in the elders and ask for nothing for yourself. MAKE NO PROFIT, and the event will be sacred and you will receive many blessings in return. This is principle #1 of the native way -- the giveaway. It runs 180 degrees opposite of the dominant culture. You don't start out figuring your cut, you trust that everything you do with a good heart will be good for you.

Again, if you plan to profit off the broken culture that was destroyed in this country, I urge you to look long and hard. The ancestors watch, and they can act.

I have been privileged to live among Indians, to have had the opportunity to learn from them, and to have had my heart follow a good way. I now have both my feet in the dominant society, and I carry by these ways what my brothers would call a bad heart today. But I ask you not to do this to make money. I have learned and retained that much.

All that said, the whites who are those wannabes, they often form these groups to avoid having to actually go out on the rez and live humbly and learn from these Indians they so claim to admire. Because if you go out there in a good way and with an open mind and an open heart, you can find what you seek. But that is a much harder path than just making it up as some fantasy world.

Now back to the regular Jim who is on here all the time.

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Jim Steele
Sweetpea Farms
"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." -- Robert Gates

After re-reading everything, I'm kinda confused. The "Native" skills mentioned aren't strictly the Native American's are they? Didn't early man need many of these skills to survive? Various tribes would have their own language, sets of beliefs, etc., but for tracking, hunting, gathering...those things have been done for centuries by many cultures in many lands and in many different ways.

Learning ways of surviving has been taught and handed down for generations. One shouldn't feel a need to belong to a special group, or to learn those skills from a special group. If you want to learn a skill, you should be interested in finding someone with that knowledge who is willing to teach it to others, no matter their heritage.

I mean no disrespect to any native culture. My dad was a knapper, but had no native heritage to my knowledge...He just wanted to learn. I use an At'latl. This is a weapon/hunting device that spans countless generations, cultures and countries (same as flint knapping). I think it's good to keep these skills alive...You never know if/when they may truely be needed. Hope I haven't offended anyone. Things I say don't always come across right.

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Nevermore

Yes, there are still practicing "heritage" indians left, and it is true they live in the high North Country, but I think we are refering to want can be found in the lower 48.

Calm down and take a deep breath friend! LOL! I sure understand what you are saying, and it's all just and correct, but in the main post, I don't see anything about her wanting to turn a profit from the natives, nor anyone for that matter. If she was, I'd completely agree with all you replied.

Thanks everybody.

Good arguments for both sides. I agree that skills are skills and can be learned without having to include the Native American scenario and I love the idea of being involved in a knapping "event", which I will look into further.

I understand and agree with the issue of exploitation. I have nothing but the utmost respect and affection for NA peoples and this would be the last thing that I would EVER want to do.

After reading your responses I am leaning more toward making it more of a "Primitive skils" or "Nature skills" kind of deal, which will also appeal to a much wider group of people anyway. I would think that you could have some Native American Flute music and possibly even some drumming without putting too much emphasis on the NA angle. Even if we had some Navajo Fry Bread at a cooking demonstration, I am pretty confident that many people (other than Native Americans exclusively) had some type of similar bread that was cooked on an open pit (isn't Bannok made like that?).

Just as an aside to MTPlainsman I have to tell you a story about when I was living in Colorado and a Ute co-worker's father was working on a highway construction crew when they accidentally hit an unmarked burial ground.

You would NOT have believed what this poor man had to go through, in the way of ceremonies, etc., in order to clean his spirit after this happened. It cost him over $5,000 (he had to buy and slaughter 50 sheep, pay for elders to fly in from out of state, etc.,) and missed 2 weeks of work while all this was going on. It may be totally true that many modern day Natives may not be "up" on traditional skills such as fire starting, etc., but when it comes to the spiritual side of things, I think they still follow the old ways very strongly, even in spite of other spiritual influences.

Anyway, guys. Thanks for the input. I think I will satisfy my interest in things Native American in other ways, maybe by taking a college course or visiting a local archaeological site.

donsgal

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Life is what happens while you are making other plans. (John Lennon)

This is right on... one needed find a real native with ancestral heritage, in order to include "old school" methods of living skills. At one point, as just said, all of our cultures had to learn and practice ways of life similiar to the natives.

EDIT: I just saw you slipped in the above post with my same view point here, glad you realize you can introduce old skills without an individual race to teach it.

Boy, seems like a bunch of people just went wild with the PC bandwagon. I didn't read anything in Donsgal's plans that would exploit Native Americans, their customs, skills, or culture, etc, et al. What it sounds like she's describing is a "living history" farm. Had she used a different wording, I doubt that anyone would have gotten their drawers wadded.

Come on, folks, let's call it what it is--hypocracy and deception. I have met so many whites looking for yet another NA outlet into which to plug their umbilical cords, it is pathetic. It would be fine to facilitate an event in which legitimate NA instructors share what they know, but to play around with someone else's culture, lifeways, and religion is a bit much and especially to offer it to the misguided who would use such skills to advance their delusions. The op mentions that they are considering "Dressing up and pretending to be someone you aren't". In my book, that is called impersonation and is NOT a form of flattery, it is a form of identity theft.

I don't think Donsgal had any ill intent in mind, just kind of thinking out loud and considering the idea. But FWIW, I think it is a very bad idea and unfortunately one that I have seen perpetrated endlessly.

I have enough "blood" in me to qualify for membership in one of the tribes. But I don't use it for a marketing advantage. I am also an Appalachian hillbilly, and it is very upsetting for me to imagine how I would feel if the Coal Mine Owners and Timber Processers Association's youth league decided to offer classes in Appalachian living(making do with nothing, herbal medicine because you can't afford a Dr, cooking wild game and foraging for food because the soil on your land is too poor to farm--sign up now, folks!). Identity theft is wrong, whether done via computer or via culture theft.

You know, although the presentation is a bit brusque, I do agree with your point. It's not the same as being an re-enactor or even a "mountain man", because the ethnicity of it goes deeper. It is about who you are. Who you ancestors were, what they suffered. I think to imply that you have some kind of understanding of that is a real slap in the face coming from a non-Native person. After all, it is the white people who CAUSED the misery and death and distruction of the old ways. It is like having a bunch of KKK guys deciding that they were going to celebrate the 4th of July by dressing up like slaves! Imagine what the ancestors must be thinking.....'HOW DARE THEY...HOW DARE THEY!

Despite my love for the culture and the wealth of information that can be shared, it WAS a bad idea. Much better just to make these skills, etc., available to people in a non-ethnic way for the LOVE OF LEARNING and not try to turn it into something it is not - and can never be.

Mea Culpa.

donsgal

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Life is what happens while you are making other plans. (John Lennon)

I have some Cherokee from my grandpa. My wife's great grandmother, supposedly was full blood Cherokee. Her grandpa would not accept any Native American ancestry in his family. My wife shows alot of the Cherokee features and skin tone, as does my daughter.

Here in Oklahoma, there are alot of people with Native American blood in them, that do not have documentation.

I wouldn't personally want to join a make believe tribe, but if you do, your not completely crazy. One of my best friends is a full blood Choctaw. I will ask him what he thinks about this.

Somebody else has already has done just that. Have you never heard of the Foxfire books?

Donsgal, you are not completely crazy

I suppose if you are upfront and honest, and advertize that your organization is about non-native Americans pretending to be native Americans there really shouldn't be a problem.

Personally, I would not want to be seen as offensive to actual native Americans, and would strongly take that into consideration.

Did you happen to watch PBS's "Independent Lens" last night? It was about the Navajo Queen pagent. It was great, I was so very much impressed by how their love of nature, and respect for life, and earth, and living came though in such a shy, thoughtful way. And how the meaning of slaugthering a sheep and preparing a meal was part of the contest. Gave me even more respect for all native americans.

Marlene

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It is the one with persistence and determination that brings great ideas into being.

I like your new direction here, and like I said before, the true elders are available who will come and teach if you will ask in respect and with a good heart, pay their plane fare, and provide them food and a place to sleep. I have had them on my place. We would simply ask donations of people who were interested and keep them until we got enough to fly the elders in. I have also spent time in their homes.

Be aware that, if you ask the elders to come to your place, you will be the one "losing" money. The last person who came, we had 150 people come over a weekend to visit. Many brought potluck and items to help, but others were on a different path and did not. Still, everyone was fed and taken care of. As well as money, I had to get used to losing control over my possessiveness of my land, since everything happens that you cannot control once an elder is there. It's a big thing that happens, and not everyone can handle it. Frankly, I don't think in the present place where I find my heart, I could handle it right now to do it again.

Also, there is nothing wrong with the elders doing ceremonies, as long as there is NO CHARGE. It has nothing to do with race of the participants. You want to make sure the ceremonies done are completely separate and apart from any paid lessons or activities, so there is not even an indirect charging for them. Man, after what I have been through with the power of these ceremonies, I would not want to cross the powers that are part of them. It is an amazing thing when it is real, and done with proper respect and a good heart. Otherwise, it is simply a trinket, and can draw stuff to you that you do not want around. I have a huge respect for that power that is not of us but greater than any of us.

Now, if someone wanted to, of their own free will, give money or blankets or other things to the elder who visited, that's the giveaway and is also fine. It was never asked for, though. Being voluntary it was done "in a good way." No one usually speaks of what they have done in those matters, either. It is done quietly and away from public view. Many elders will accept the physical goods but will ask you as host to burn them in a certain way after the elder has left. This is to keep them from carrying away with them anything in the intent of giving that could attract negatives to themselves or their family. As one elder explained to me, "You know, when you are doing a ceremony for someone with cancer, you are placing yourself in a direct line of that cancer, and are making yourself vulnerable to it, so you are running the risk of sickness yourself." Money they will accept, if it is given in a good way (no demands, no strings, no repayment), as it does not carry any spiritual value.

As far as "calm down and take a deep breath," that comment comes from a place that is completely unknowing of what I am talking about. It's part of my path to stand up in these matters, and if I do not, I will suffer. People who know something of this, know what I am talking about. Thank you, donsgal, for being open to what has been said. Your example of the man who dug into a graveyard shows how much respect is given for the powers. Everything positive and negative flows from them, and I don't want to cross them, ever.

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Jim Steele
Sweetpea Farms
"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." -- Robert Gates

This post made me remember a story that was told to me in a class on various primitive/wilderness survival skills a while back. The woman teaching had learned to tan hides and was very excited to make her first dress. She spent a lot of hours working on it, and was proud of the finished result....which was something similar to what a Plains native woman might have worn. With her blonde hair and blue eyes, it was quite obvious this lady was not Native American, but she wore the dress to see her brother anyway (she wanted to show it to him) because it was something she had worked hard to create--from the ground up. On her way there though, some passers-by jeered at her, calling her names like "Pocahontas", etc. She told us that she was surprised at how much this bothered her....it became one of those niggling thoughts that just wouldn't go away, and it took away a bit of her joy and having completed her first buckskin garment.

She finally realized that it was precisely because she wasn't trying to be Pocahontas by learning these skills, that it bothered her so much. She wasn't trying to pretend to be something she was not. Yet, she understood why the style of dress she chose to create would give that impression. But she also came to understand that these skills....the tanning of the hides, the "primitive" tool making, the hunting, the gathering....even various types of spiritual skills are the heritage of every living person here on this earth...not only the Natives. If you go back far enough into the history of any People, these skills were necessary for the continuation of life. And with that realization, she was free to learn w/o feeling that she was 'stealing' or disrespecting a culture that was not her own. She now makes regular button up shirts, regular carhartt-style pants, hoodies and more--all out of buckskin. And are they gorgeous!! Nothing is as beautiful as her buckskin wedding dress though!! Which is the same style or pattern of something you'd find in a regular bridal boutique.....except that it is made out of deer hide . When she hoisted that amazing dress in the air for all to see, I felt so much relief....because I guess I also had that nagging guilt that was associated w/ wanting to learn the skills, but not wanting to make myself out to be a Native. And suddenly I realized that she was right....the skills, like others have said here on this thread, belong to all of us. And, in my opinion anyway, it is important for them to be preserved and passed on, before they are lost to history forever.

Anyway, just thought I'd share that story. It was a profound one for me at the time....I hope that I have done it justice in the retelling of it.

Erin