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08/09/07, 10:42 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,245
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Trixiwick,
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Originally Posted by Tonya
If my history classes served me right, I remember int he Declaration of Independence that we have the RIGHT to pursue happiness. How is working a stink job just because you NEED insurance allowing you to pursue happiness?
I could not possibly agree less. You have the freedom and the right to PURSUE anything you want. No one deserves a guarantee that they will not fail. If you believe at all in freedom, then you MUST believe also in the freedom to fail as well as to succeed.
Ayn Rand makes a distinction between "life" and "survival." The first is a right that we all have upon birth, and which no person has the right to take away from us (thus, murder is wrong). "Survival" is another matter, and requires that individuals go out and get what they need for themselves. No one has a "right" to that. No one has a God-given right to a job they love. No one has the right to take things away from people who have succeeded, using nothing but their own failure as their "moral" validation.
__________________
Well now, Trixiwick,
Do your comments suggest that I should be able to buy "prescription drugs" required for my personal healthcare WITHOUT paying an exhorbitant fee for a Doctor's visit to get the prescription? And MUST my purchase be limited in amount and duration by the Doctor (who has NEVER had the experience of living the disease?) Seems like a "protection racket" to me!
Where is my RIGHT to LIFE, LIBERTY, and the PURSUIT of happiness....if it is at the mercy of Doctors and Hospitals? 
Inquiring minds want to know...
Bruce
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08/09/07, 10:43 AM
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Mother,Artist, Author
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: East Tennessee
Posts: 3,532
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by blue8ewe
I realy mean no disrespect but I am floored by what you stated. In BOLD.
Why would you think you should have anything if you are not willing to earn it? Food, medical, a roof over your head? All these things are not rights they are earned.
I have always felt they should be anyway.
Now to clarify I KNOW many work but still cant afford medical and this is a reality that sucks but it is not my point.
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I don't think that is what Faustus meant.
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08/09/07, 10:44 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 298
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okay, i don't know why i am getting involved in this, but i just wanted to share another opinion. i have no current health problems. go to my yearly doctor apt. and thats all. i have never been to a hospital personally. and i have always had insurance. i am currently covered by my employer, i required when i took the job that he cover me. i am also lucky in that he is covering my dh as well. through the employer the insurance for both of us runs about $1000. NY has requirements on insurance that keeps a lot of companies from offering it here at all, and seems to eliminate some less expensive options. we are trying really hard to able to live our dream and leave suburbia where we are currently stuck, but i (being the worry wort i am) keep looking for affordable insurance and can't seem to find many options. i don't want to rely on other people picking up our health costs. i don't know what the solution is, but the current system just isn't working. i don't mind paying for my coverage, we just need to do something about how high the costs are.
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08/09/07, 10:47 AM
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Mother,Artist, Author
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: East Tennessee
Posts: 3,532
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Junkmanme
Trixiwick,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonya
If my history classes served me right, I remember int he Declaration of Independence that we have the RIGHT to pursue happiness. How is working a stink job just because you NEED insurance allowing you to pursue happiness?
I could not possibly agree less. You have the freedom and the right to PURSUE anything you want. No one deserves a guarantee that they will not fail. If you believe at all in freedom, then you MUST believe also in the freedom to fail as well as to succeed.
Ayn Rand makes a distinction between "life" and "survival." The first is a right that we all have upon birth, and which no person has the right to take away from us (thus, murder is wrong). "Survival" is another matter, and requires that individuals go out and get what they need for themselves. No one has a "right" to that. No one has a God-given right to a job they love. No one has the right to take things away from people who have succeeded, using nothing but their own failure as their "moral" validation.
__________________
Well now, Trixiwick,
Do your comments suggest that I should be able to buy "prescription drugs" required for my personal healthcare WITHOUT paying an exhorbitant fee for a Doctor's visit to get the prescription? And MUST my purchase be limited in amount and duration by the Doctor (who has NEVER had the experience of living the disease?) Seems like a "protection racket" to me!
Where is my RIGHT to LIFE, LIBERTY, and the PURSUIT of happiness....if it is at the mercy of Doctors and Hospitals?
Inquiring minds want to know...
Bruce |
I agree Bruce.
Some months back I had to get an antibiotic for an ear infection. The generic brand was still $60. The doctor also wrote a prescription for pain killers, $10 for 10 tablets!!! I didn't have enough cash for the both, so obviously I went with the antibiotic. And I used the over the counter ibuprofen I already had at home, and suffered until the antibiotic started to kick in.
And BTW, 800 mg of Ibuprofen can only be obtained by a doctor's prescription, or you can buy the 200 mg over the counter and just take 4 of those for the same dosage. That doesn't make sense. 
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08/09/07, 10:52 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,894
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Personally I agree Blue. National health care is not all that it is cracked up to be. And it surprises me that people think INSURANCE (notice I did not say HEALTH CARE) is an entitlement. Save our tax dollars for those who truly need it, such as Kat's daughter. Not a grown man who can work and buy his own insurance or pay his doctors bills.
Insurance is a scam and it is the heart of the reason that health care is not affordable. National insurance would help our health care system how? I have yet to see how any insurance has helped anyone.
We personally are moving to Samaritan Ministries at the first of the year.
God Bless,
Michele
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08/09/07, 10:53 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,245
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I ask again....... OTHER THAN INSURANCE, what is your opinion of the functioning and parameters of our MEDICAL SYSTEM?
Bruce 
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08/09/07, 11:01 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,245
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Thanks for the opinion and anecdotal comparison, FiddleKat!
Bruce
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08/09/07, 11:18 AM
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bunny slave
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Southeastern PA
Posts: 4,389
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by FiddleKat
See your ASSUMING again........................
I didn't say I thought it was unfair. Who doesn't complain about the high cost of insurance? Whether it be car, medical or whatever??
YOUR the one who's saying its unfair. I didn't. Obviously you don't get it.
And yes, I know how expensive my daughter's care is, and I am THANKFUL that the gov. is covering her, and I have had no problems whatsoever. They covered her $7000 wheelchair she got three years ago, and we just had it adjusted for growth, and probably will last her another three years. She just had her AFO's (leg braces) approved.
But please, I ask you not to turn my words around to try to start something. Because I feel that that is what your doing. |
OK, then please clarify, because I'm not going to know what you mean and am going to have to extrapolate unless you put your opinion out there clearly. I personally don't complain about things I think are fair and for which I am thankful.
I pay car insurance just like everyone else, and don't complain about it. I am aware that car repairs cost a fair amount of money. Why should mechanics and body shop people work for minimum wage just because I would enjoy paying a lower premium? That's not how things work. They are skilled people, and their skill justifiably commands a certain wage. Similarly, doctors, nurses and medical equipment really are not cheap, and I don't think most of us would be happy with Joe's Discount Body Shop and Emergency Room. The entitlement talk may start with "We deserve some medical care that we can afford," but it very quickly moves on to "We deserve the same standard of care that the rich people get!!"
If those of you who are unhappy with the existing system could explain exactly what you dislike and what might be a realistic way to fix it, I'm listening. I am aware that the system is far from perfect. But, as my dad used to say to us when we were kids, "Do you have something to say, or are you just whining?" 
__________________
"I'm not mean. You're just a sissy." - Happy Bunny
"I think you should be able to flush anything you want. Just don't call me when your toilet clogs." - BlueHeron Farm
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08/09/07, 11:22 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,859
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Junkmanme
I ask again....... OTHER THAN INSURANCE, what is your opinion of the functioning and parameters of our MEDICAL SYSTEM?
Bruce |
Unless you have big $$$, it stinks and you suffer and/or die.
My hub's diagnosis of advanced colon cancer was delayed SEVERAL months because the new "PCP" that the insurance co forced on us would NOT see him without their card IN hand, the office girl literally said to us that without that card in our hands we were "scre*ed" - he wouldn't even see him. Meanwhile the ins co messed up entering him into their sytem and despite numerous phone calls I could not get it straightened out after several weeks. We couldn't go back to prev doc because he wasn't in THAT network and couldn't make a valid referral to a GI guy; in the mean time, 2 trips to the ER with 2 CT scans they kept giving him the diagnosis of diverticulitis...um. WRONG. Finally, new PCP wouldn't make the referral without going through his own SEVERAL courses of antibiotics, after months of me insisting that he needed a colonoscopy, it had been going on too long, he was too sick, losing weight, etc. Try going to see a specialist without insurance...it's next to impossible (and I've worked in the field for 20 years). If you do find one who will see you, you get treated like DIRT and leave feeling worse then when you went in, and probably completely unable to afford what they recommend even if you sold your house and all your belongings. Ins switch was forced by my med transcription dept being outsourced - mostly so they could send the work to INDIA. Most people got squeezed out because we went from making a decent living to almost minimum wage.
Sometimes things are beyond your control even when you've worked hard and TRIED to do the right things. Maybe if he would have had the scope when he originally needed it, it wouldn't have spread to so many lymph nodes. It's a big maybe, but still the sliver of wonder is there. In any event, he didn't get the attention and treatment he needed WHEN he needed it the most because of greedy/uncaring doctors, ins cos and healthcare employer! We both worked hard ALL our lives. I don't look for handouts, but what we went through the past year noone should have to go through. I don't know what the solution is. Most doctors these days, to me, rank pretty low on the food chain. Not all, there are still some wonderful human beings that happen to be doctors, but big $ ins and biz have made many of them lose any caring for patients they had.
Sorry for the lengthy post, but some of those responses just pushed my buttons.
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08/09/07, 11:23 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: AZ
Posts: 167
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My husband has a job that pays well. Our insurance costs would be over $800 a month for a family of 3 with a $10000 deductible! Even though hubby makes a lot of money our mortage, utilities, and gas don't leave a lot left. We're frugal people but we cannot afford $800 a month. Last summer I slipped off my flipflop while I was opening our gate. I broke a bone in my foot. I couldn't afford to go to the doctor. We don't qualify for any assistance through our local clinic. We have to pay full price. So if I had gone to the clinic I would have had to pay for a doctor's visit plus x-rays plus any treatment they might have prescribed. We don't have that kind of $$$. It finally healed after quite a few months. My daughter had a sore throat with blisters and I was afraid she might have strep. Our pediatrician wanted more than $200 to see her. The walk-in clinics said it would be around the same. Our community clinic did see her for $90. This is for strep not some obscure illness that is difficult to treat. My point is that we can't afford insurance and we can't afford heath care. I pray that no one in my family is injured or comes down with a life threatening illness. Some kind of reform needs to happen. I don't have the answers but we're playing russian roulette with our lives because we can't afford either!...and I'm sure we're not the only ones in this position.
Off my soapbox now...
Suzi
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08/09/07, 11:25 AM
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bunny slave
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Southeastern PA
Posts: 4,389
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Just for the record...we all suffer and die...every single one of us. With insurance and without, whether we took perfect care of our health or were sloppy. It varies only in degree. Suffering and dying is the price we must all pay for the gift of life. Civilization can do many things, but it cannot take away that eternal truth.
__________________
"I'm not mean. You're just a sissy." - Happy Bunny
"I think you should be able to flush anything you want. Just don't call me when your toilet clogs." - BlueHeron Farm
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08/09/07, 11:38 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,245
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THANK YOU, trixiwick, for considerately explaining the obvious.
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08/09/07, 11:40 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: high up and far out
Posts: 423
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trixiwick
Just for the record...we all suffer and die...every single one of us. With insurance and without, whether we took perfect care of our health or were sloppy. It varies only in degree. Suffering and dying is the price we must all pay for the gift of life. Civilization can do many things, but it cannot take away that eternal truth.
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Well said and Im agreeing with out being uncaring to anyone.
It is just a fact. We cant get away from it.
I had insurance and had kidney surgery. I hurt like hell and even with everything 100% paid they could do/would do nothing to ease my suffering. I survived. So. its over and Ive learned. Next time I take my own herbal pain stuff with me and not rely on those bumble heads.
__________________
Mutton and Chocolate! YUMMMMMMMM!
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08/09/07, 11:41 AM
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Max
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Near Traverse City Michigan
Posts: 6,560
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trixiwick
I could not possibly agree less. You have the freedom and the right to PURSUE anything you want. No one deserves a guarantee that they will not fail. If you believe at all in freedom, then you MUST believe also in the freedom to fail as well as to succeed.
Ayn Rand makes a distinction between "life" and "survival." The first is a right that we all have upon birth, and which no person has the right to take away from us (thus, murder is wrong). "Survival" is another matter, and requires that individuals go out and get what they need for themselves. No one has a "right" to that. No one has a God-given right to a job they love. No one has the right to take things away from people who have succeeded, using nothing but their own failure as their "moral" validation.
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Ayn Rand, and trixywick...2 of my heros
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08/09/07, 11:45 AM
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..where do YOU look?
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: northcentral WI
Posts: 3,918
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It's interesting that so many people that believe in a certain amount of self-sufficiency (more than than most sheeple) feel so strongly that it's someone elses responsibility to care for you and yours when it comes to healthcare.
Just my $0.02,
flame on
R
__________________
When faced with issues in life, where do you look for the problem; out the window, or in the mirror?
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08/09/07, 11:47 AM
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Max
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Near Traverse City Michigan
Posts: 6,560
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deleted
Last edited by michiganfarmer; 08/09/07 at 11:47 AM.
Reason: not being nice
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08/09/07, 11:47 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,245
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Michiganfarmer.......
Our totalitarian government has, by stealthy encroachment, taken our basic rights and sold our rights back to us as privileges and licenses.
Ain't it the TRUTH !!!!!!!!
Bruce
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08/09/07, 11:48 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,859
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trixiwick
Just for the record...we all suffer and die...every single one of us. With insurance and without, whether we took perfect care of our health or were sloppy. It varies only in degree. Suffering and dying is the price we must all pay for the gift of life. Civilization can do many things, but it cannot take away that eternal truth.
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Okay, isn't that nice.
 The record also shows that many cancers, especially colon cancer, are often CURABLE when caught early enough, and at 45 years old he needed to be investigated/treated much earlier then he was, through no fault of OURS. Maybe unless you've been caught in the quagmire of dealing with many of today's healthcare "professionals" you just don't realize how easily you and YOUR LIFE can be dismissed because you don't have the green.
God save you from watching someone you love suffer badly because you can't get a doctor to even see them, let alone treat them, because you don't have THOUSANDS of dollars or an ins card on hand. Or being misdiagnosed by radiologists (one of the most self-serving money hungry groups I've even seen - I work for some, I know). Knowing that something VERY bad is happening to them. Mercy.
Or maybe some of us just aren't as smart and/or lucky as others.
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08/09/07, 11:51 AM
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Max
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Near Traverse City Michigan
Posts: 6,560
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well Ive had enough of this arguement.
There are people who want their mommy, and there are people who want to pay their own way.
Neither is going to change the mind of the other
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08/09/07, 11:51 AM
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,894
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by WindowOrMirror
It's interesting that so many people that believe in a certain amount of self-sufficiency (more than than most sheeple) feel so strongly that it's someone elses responsibility to care for you and yours when it comes to healthcare.
Just my $0.02,
flame on
R
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Ditto, flame me as well. I got my big girl stepins on today. 
God Bless,
Michele
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