It happened before and now the same thing happened for the same reasons
 

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I post this here on CF because it has to do with families and children ! ! !

It happened before and now the same thing happened again
for the same reasons ! ! !

People having an attitude that they are better than someone else and they can't keep there mouth shut, and they do not know how to treat others of a
lower class in society etc.

This happens mostly among children and young adults, and they have watched there parents have the same attitude, and they act the same.

The difference is when I was young they just settled it by fighting and that was usually the end of it.

Today they let it boil up inside, and when they get tired of it they take guns and shoot and kill those who make fun of them.

It happened at both Schools ( The Columbine Massacre and Va. Tech ) investigators found out that most of the children shot by the two boys were going around and making fun of or acting as though they were better than those two boys.

The boys told certain ones to leave because they were not part of the problem and they did not get shoot.

( Va. Tech ) Now you have a young man faced with the same problem of people and there arrogant attitude and he said that he had enough and he went on a killing spree.

Train up your children to have the right attitude and not treat others as low class or they could face some of the same problems.

There are even people here on HT who portray the same kind of attitude ( from time to time ) of those who were shoot, and if they would act like this in public they could have the same thing happen to them.

Children watch there parents and how they treat and talk about others and they learn a lot from there actions ! ! !


bumpus
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I know, I know. It's never the shooter's fault. These tragedies are always the fault of someone else.

I dare you even assume that any one of those children murdered in their dorm or class room had any kind of attitude, you my friend are more part of the problem then the solution with remarks like that.

Along with your remark about "...they do not know how to treat others in a lower class in society..." How about changing your own attitude to the idea that THERE ARE NO CLASSES IN OUR SOCIETY - we all are equal.

What a start to my day :(

Marlene

It is a very sad situation and I am sure there are many reasons why it happened, but I think the young man who did the shooting must have been a very sad, disturbed person. I feel bad for everyone.

I guess one thing we can teach our children is to reach out to those who seem to be in despair or who seem to need a kind word or just a smile. Even if a person is different there is no need for them to reach that depth of despair. I have read many stories of people who intended to commit suicide and a chance encounter changed their minds. You never know when something you say or do might make a difference.

Marlene, I think in an ideal world there would be no such thing as "class" but I truly think that on most hs and college campuses class predjudice is very much alive. Some children are practically eaten alive for very minor differences. I know there are many, many people here on this board who have chosen to homeschool their children because of this and I commend them for understanding that.

Recently Lindsey went on an overnight trip. Her teacher called me ahead of time and said there was one girl that did not have anyone who wanted to room with her (the kids were all asked to write down several choices of friends to pick to be in a room with them) and he wanted to know if Lindsey would be willing to room with the girl. He directly said to me, "I don't know what to do with the poor girl, no one likes her, but I thought that Lindsey is the only one who would treat her nicely." Now I will say that Lindsey was a bit upset because she and her three best friends had it all planned out that they would room together and have a great time, but she did understand and she roomed with the girl (along with two other girls who are friends with Lindsey) and she told me that they were all nice to her. Lindsey did not know the girl well as she had no classes with her, but now she often sits by her at lunch and tries to help her as she can, but the child has very poor social skills.

I know that was rambling, but please don't shoot the messenger here. Bumpus' message is a brutal truth for many young people.

I am not saying it was the fault of any of the students who were so tragically killed in this event, just that eventually some people crack and take out their anger in horrid ways.

Bumpus - I think you need to listen to some more of the reporting that has gone on. The students who tried to be friendly with this young man and he just walked on or the teacher who tried to get him some counseling but he refused. You cannot possibly blame society for this person's mental problems. If everyone who has ever had something mean said to them or about them were to take a gun and kill some people, there would be no one left on the planet!! :flame:

As a VA Tech graduate, I can tell you that you will rarely find a more supportive group than among the students and faculty on that campus. Let's put the blame where it belongs, with a person who was obviously mentally ill and refused help.

There is not excuse for the man to kill anyone, but if you will listen to the news on TV you will see that they found a note written by the man who told why he was going to kill these people.

Listen to the news they have the answer now.

You may want an equal society and that would be great but this is the real world and sad to say most people do not treat others equal.

And this type is only going to get worse because many do not think it is a problem but I do know from my own personal experience that it does happen even more today and it is not getting any better.


bumpus
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I was under the impression that the girl that the shooter was sweet on had another boyfriend....and that's what set him off.

It would be nice to say that was true. As long as I have been alive & I am sure long before, & in the future to come, there have been classes of people. You have your rich, your middle class, & your poor. Maybe even a few more.

I completely hold the shooter responsible for his actions. I was teased something awful in school & could have easily been one of these shooters if I took their attitude. It was rough in school, but I tried to ignore the teasing & ridicule as much as possible. There is NO EXCUSE to kill anyone unless it is in self defense & your own life is at risk. No one knows if someone has mental issues that will send them over the edge. The guy needed help. He refused it & decided to take care of things his own way. That is too bad for the people that got in his way.

However, to try to say everyone is equal is almost funny. People pick at the poorer class or someone that is different. They go at them like a flock of chickens go after one that is weak or injured. They thrive on making others feel bad. I guess it's a big ego trip to a lot of kids to pick on someone that is not as well off, or good looking, or as athletic, etc. Kids do pick this attitude up from their parents a lot. I do agree with Bumpus on that. Kids do what they see. You can tell them something a million times, but they watch your actions & tend to treat others as they see their parents treat others. I have seen a lot of kids that have their parents attitude. How they look down their noses at other kids & make fun of them because they don't wear the right clothes or live in a nice house, or whatever. I have seen kids making fun of elderly people just because they're old. Maybe because their own parents have not shown compassion to their own elderly parents. It is a viscious cycle that needs to be broken. I have already told my kids that they better never pick on anyone & have me find out about it. They are to treat everyone with kindness & never judge someone by their outward appearance. I have been told quite a few times by teachers that they are doing just that. They are playing with the kid that no one else wants to play with. Then when the other kids see that, they start to play & before you know it, they are all getting along. My kids are not perfect, but that is the one thing I have pounded in their head since they were little. I know what it was like to be picked on & I have told them how it made me feel. I also try to treat everyone I come in contact with as nicely as I can. They see that & it does rub off.

So equal, I don't think so. It has been that way pretty much forever & will always be that way or even get worse from the way people are raising their kids now. Most kids seem to be focused on material items & themselves with no regard to others. It really is sad. :( That is one reason I like this board. There is at least hope that there are a lot of good kids out there yet. I just wish there were more.

Fact: Up to High School, kids are packed together like sardines, and allowed to bully, and ostracize students who aren't cool, or in the "in" crowd. Supervision is limited, with way too high student per staff ratio. THIS IS WRONG.

By the time they move on to college, you would think all of this posturing would be over with. I guess since you see it with adults, I am being naive on this!

Question: How can you ever try to justify a rampage such as this? His actions were wrong.

Wendy:

That was very well said and I agree which is sad :Bawling:

Been there, had it done to me many time in the past and even todays world, and have to pray about it from time to time ! ! !

But some people can not handle the rejection and they crack snap or what ever and someone pays for it, many times with there life.


bumpus
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If you mean me, I am not justifying it at all. There is no reason for killing except self defense. I said that in my other post. In my opinion, anyone that goes that far has some pretty bad mental issues. That's another reason to teach your kids to watch what they say & do. You never know when you are doing it or saying it to an unstable person. A person that feels the only way to put an end to it is by killing those that hurt them.

One of the problems with this discussion is that we are trying to compare apples and oranges. There is a vast difference between children that remain outside the 'in crowd' for one reason or another and the people who are downright scary or so outside the parameters of normal society that they are no longer understanding the laws and common practices of normal society. A couple years ago, a young man was stalking my daughter. If she went to the library, he would skip class to go the library, if she went to class, he'd stand outside and wait for her to come out, he'd follow her to her bus, call the house and hang up if anyone other than her answered and started making verbal threats to any other male that spoke with her because she was 'his girlfriend'. She had done nothing wrong, she simply felt he was alone and in need of a bit of friendship so she talked with him at lunch one day. I don't feel she should have dated him to make him feel better and I don't feel that if she had dated him he would have been any happier or less dangerous, he would likely have become more agressive and territorial. He was caught before he got his firearms into the school and he had the usual hit list already prepared but my point is that the emotionally deranged don't read normal acts of friendly behavior as what they are any more than they read a slight as what it is. Kids in schools are no different than we are, they seek out friends with similar interests, thus jocks socialize with jocks, academic kids seek those with similar interests and so on. If someone chooses to isolate themselves, there is no one who is going to pull them into a group because they choose not to reveal enough of themself for someone to seek them out and draw them in. There are loners who are just people who prefer their own company and they are vastly different than those who hid a dangerous mind. Those with a dangerous mind will show society what they want society to see rather than what society needs to see, in order to find them the help they need.

No one is trying to justify what the man did.
But most people are asking why he did it and the thread is answering the question.


bumpus
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If he was stupid and maladjusted enough to go off and kill 32 people. Then I guess they were correct when they were making fun of him.

Teach your children well. Be nice, Kindness counts.
I can say that my kids have great empathy, but some parents are as cliquey and unkind as they probably were in High School. It will continue to happen that some kids will be ostracized, but we can all make a difference in some small way.
That said, this kid was just bonkers, his room mates said he would not interact with them and answered with one word responses.

It is never the right thing to make fun of anyone. If you have been the brunt of the "in crowd's" attention then you should remember how it felt. This young man seemed to have been angry at the world and refused help offered. His family is also suffering because of his actions.All these families are in my thoughts and prayers.We should teach our own to treat others as they wish to be treated and not that they are better and that it is ok to make fun of others that are less fortunate.
Thanks for letting me vent.

He didn't have a hitlist, he just shot anybody, as he was trying to find and kill the boyfriend of the women he wanted.

Let me try that one again :)

What do YOU think would happen if more of us CHANGED our attitude to the idea that there are no classes in our society that we are all equal?

Now tell me - do YOU think of yourself a better then others? Do you see classes in our society? How's that working for you?

Reality might show reasons to believe it is not so YET, but I'm sticking with the idea it is better to see yourself and others as equals - you can choose to be a part of it or not it's up to you. Just remember YOU are setting examples for not only your own children but other people's children also.

Hugs,
Marlene

Wendy, in the future if you are going to quote me would you please not just take the part you are in disagreemnt with and post it as if it is a complete statement.

Hugs,
Marlene

uh....

There are other people out there who have really tough lives, are picked on, loners, dealt a bad deal, poor, made fun of...

...and they don't lose it and kill 32 people and shoot up another 14 or so. They carry on.

The gunman was a sick, sick, kid.

I would hope all of us raise our kids to respect others.

BUT, I'm also teaching my kids to watch out for others - and identify odd behaviors and actions so they can hopefully be aware of potential dangers. Situational awareness...

All this about everyone being nice to the outsider is well and good, however, I think it falls more on the parents to know their child and raise them properly. People do make fun of people happens all the time but if a child is loved and raised as being valued that child can handle pressure. I think it is more important for parents to teach their child how the handle ridicule and judgements from others than to teach them to just "be nice" to everyone. Also, I think it is important for parents to KNOW their child and if they have a kid that isn't right in the head not to ignore it. I mean which is worse to admit your kid has mental issues or watch your kid kill a bunch of people and himself?

If you read the shooter's writing, it sounds as if he'd been sexually abused. The shooter learned predatory behavior somewhere and my guess is, the shooting had nothing to do with the students or the teachers, but with someone in the shooter's life who had preyed on him repeatedly. Yes, pure speculation at this point but I won't be surprised if that turns out to be the case.

Well in some ways I see where your coming from bumpus.I use to have problems with anger,went for help.What helped more was I was told instead of holding things in,say what I have to at the time.

After awhile I got to where what people had to say didn't bother me.I know my Heart and do the best I can and call it good. :shrug:

What bothers me this Guy planned this for over two weeks.Plus I've seen mass killers before,but this Guy they showed pictures of him and I couldn't look.He wasn't a bad looking Kid,but I look into those eyes.I see hate and a very troubled mind.I was truly repulsed by the sight of him.And I didn't know the Guy.

big rockpile

Wow. I just don't know how to even begin to reply to this message. (Jaw hit floor and is still there.)

I'm in agreement with CF on this. He said it best.

(Yikes!!!!)

Pat

Bumpus…I agree with you 100%…except for the part about ending the dispute in fighting(but that’s a girl/boy thing)

My heart aches for the victims, the victim’s family, the shooter and the shooter’s family…

Please forgive me if my following words hurt or offend any who read them….

When, as a nation, are we going to realize that within the security of our own small communities we are allowing young innocent children to go up to become terrorists. We are fighting terrorists in foreign countries( in a faux declared war) and are not recognizing that the same mind-set is becoming an epidemic in our you backyard…

If it is due to violent games…then ban them..
If it is due to violent lyrics in music…then ban them…
If it is due to violent TV shows...then ban them…

What does any ordinary 23 year old person need an automatic assault weapon for?…I believe in the right to bear arms.. but should that include assault weapons?

I would rather loose a little of my personal second or fifth amendments…then loose my nephew to a raged gunman…

We teach our youth how to have safe sex…it’s about time we teach our youth how to handle anger….how to cope with disappointment….how to cope with hateful words and actions directed at ourselves…how our actions and words effect another human being….

We must teach our youth that respect for, first yourself, and second, to others, is critical to survive in today’s world….

Instead of the American dream being a successful McMansion owner and having a hummer in each garage and an indoor pool…make the American dream be…. to raise well adjusted, self-esteemed, compassionate , caring kids…

Instead of rushing the child to ballet or soccer practice…sit and talk, but mostly listen to what the child is saying…and always ask questions….

Instead of wasting money on football, baseball or soccer in schools…hire professionals to help identify and to try to help save the child from destructive behavior..

Kathy in MD, that was beautifully written and I agree with it 100%. :angel:

I'm not so sure that the deviant mind is always caused by something external, I'm quite sure that Jack the Ripper had no video games, violent music or shocking images on TV. I understand that Ted Bundy was analyzed to the time of his death and I'm quite sure that if he felt his being bullied as a child would have spared him the death penalty, he would have spoken up. As far as I know, there was never any conclusive evidence as to why he did what he did as there is nothing conclusive as to why Charles Manson convinced others to kill for him, why Jeffrey Dahmer chose to kill and eat human flesh and Timothy McVeigh blew up a building. Perhaps deviant behavior is the result of bad genetic combinations rather than the world spiraling out of control. Children have taunted and teased each other throughout time and not all teased children kill others, there is something that creates the killer response - in my opinon.

we also need to change the way men view women
 

I feel this poor man was a bad seed, driving others away from him with his scariness. Seems like many tried to reach out to him but he rebuffed all. In many ways different from the Columbine pair(?). Maybe this incident will make us add to the basic queries of troubled folk- 'do you have any thoughts of killing your self or anyone else?' this one "do you think about punishing the people who have done you wrong?" or some such version to flush out the mass murderers.

I also feel though this man would be warped no matter what that we need to change the way men view women. Women are not just there to be dated or to refuse you. They are humans and you should be as delighted and surprised (as a man) if a woman you like is willing to date you as you would be were you homosexual and a man you had not known was homosexual were willing to date you. But don't let me discussing homosexuals distract you- I mean most men view all women as nonattractive, attractive and I might ask her out sometime (but currently busy with someone else etc), or attractive but some version of 'she won't have me' from (worshipfully) 'she's out of my league' to 'that awful (nasty word for female of your choice) won't give me the time of day' often followed by 'I'll show her'. Kurt Vonnegut's short story Temptation in Welcome to the Monkey House is what I used to illustrate this problem to my teen daughter. Along with my experiences: I'm the casual type and had many friends in college. Once when I dyed my hair black it somehow made me newly gorgeous enough that a friend- perhaps drunk- denounced me in public as a tease who would never go out with him. Of course he had never even asked me but that's a side point....

Anyway women go through life living it; at times being attracted to men they interact with, men go through their life as if all women are there for them to decide if they want to date them or not.... am I making any sense?

Not really and it is sad that you feel all men are the same way as the ones that you have come in contact with.

Not all men are like you portray them.


bumpus
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Cultural? Mental Problems?
 

I don't think we will ever know exactly what it was, that set this fellow off.
He certainly had "Mental problems". He definitely had "Inferiority Problems".

Perhaps a part of the Things that set him off were the "Cultural Differences",
in the Asian mind-set as oppose to the prevailing sexual Attitudes & Mor`es in the US. His attitude toward Women and how they should be approached & treated seems to have been a part of his problem.

There are, without a doubt differing Economic Levels & Strata, not only in the US, but everywhere else, in the World.
But to attempt to use that fact as a "Justification" for the Killing and Maiming, this Sick-Individual, did is a little sick too.

We all had to grow up. We all, at one time or another, had to deal with
name-calling, being put-down, being picked-on, and such. It's part of
growing-up.
Now, the vast majority take it in Stride, and grow from it. The vast majority
get over it, and take our turns at engaging in it too.

But, it is the "sick ones" who snap, the Dylan Klebold, Eric Harris or Cho
Seung-hui, who, even in this Country of Priveledge, blame the People around them, for their own inadequacies.

Yeah, it'd be nice to live in a perfect World. It's not going to happen soon.
There will without a doubt continue to be Sickos who go nuts & Kill Folks.
But Hey, don't Blame the Victims. They did not even know the guy.
Think about it.

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The same thing could happen anytime anywhere in .......

Wakmart
Church
Any School
Post office
The U.S.A. Capotial
The Whitehouse
Cout rooms
Laundrymats
Subways
Big Concerts
Etc. Etc. Etc.


It can happen and no one can stop it.
It happen every day in war torn countries.

Even the U.S.A.


bumpus
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Blaming the victims reminds me of an old commercial 'Lock your car. Don't let a good boy go bad". A good boy would never know whether the car was locked or not because he would never bother someone else's possessions.

It was said that this young man when he was a little boy was a good little boy, until he came to the U.S.A.

I guess he could not handle the people who had an I'm better than you attitude and over a long period of time he got tired of dealing with it, and know you have the rest of the persons life being told, to an unbelieving public.


bumpus
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His grandfather said he was a good little boy before coming here but that he caused his parents much trouble because of a speech problem he had. His grandfather said his parents had a hard time understanding him. They said his family came here when he was, I believe, 8, because his parents wanted their children to get a better education. His family in South Korea also said that once they moved to America they did not hear from them much again.

Perhaps his mental illness wasn't showing before the age of 8, or perhaps his family had no understanding of mental illness when he was that young.

Where did you hear that he had been teased and ridiculed? I haven't heard any of that. I did hear that his dorm mates had tried to draw him in and be friends with him but he would hardly even talk to them. I have also heard others, like one of his professors, say that he was the one doing the bullying, not being bullied. She was afraid of him and demanded he was removed from her class.

Also, did you hear that he was from a poor family? I have not heard that but then again I have only been watching CNN and such at night so I could be missing things. I have heard that his parents owned a laundrymat and that his sister is a graduate from Princeton but that is all I have heard about his family.

I watched a show on Colombine the other night on tv. It said that those who did it were not part of any black coat gang or whatever was first reported and that they weren't outcasts who were bullied and teased. I don't know how true this is, only stating what they said was found out after years of looking into Colombine.

Bullying and teasing is a sad thing and we do need to teach our children better. No doubt about that! But we can't always lay a persons mental illness at the feet of society.

Debi

I haven't picked up on all the news about this individual case but i would like to ask - why is it always assumed that bullying goes down the social scale. If he was being bullied/ostracised then he must have been from a lower class and that is why it ws happening?

I was bullied interminably at school - why ? 1) Because I was bright. 2)Because my Dad employed the fathers of most of the other kids I was at school with. We were brought up to not have a problem with it, could have anyone we wanted over to play etc, etc. We never ever got invited into the home of any of my school fellows, never got invited to the birthday parties, and was bullied like mad at school. Just because of that social gap. But it was coming UP the ladder, not down it.

Please don't assume that it is only middle class kids that bully lower class kids.

just tuppence worth

hoggie

I dont know if this has anything to do with the post or not, But I was bullied as a kid for being overwieght. I think I have turned out okay I know for sure Iam not going to go get a gun and start shooting no It would be me to try to talk the gun out of someones hand. Like I say I truned out to be a loving and caring person in my old age not that I was ever not loving and caring. No what happened to that young man was much more deeper than being bullied I would Imagine,paula

Anyone upset with NBC?
 

I know the network is in business to "sell the news" but I am disturbed with the release of the videos and pictures......especially as an educator and his the shooters direct statement about the "martyrs" of Columbine. The timing and release of the NBC information has me concerned for copycat behavior.......could it have been "held" until after the 20th and released then?
But again, if there are people out there determined to make a statement and kill, it truly won't matter what day they choose to do it on!!!!