OK, before I tear into the 9N......

tinknal · #1 12/25/11, 06:34 PM

Today my Ford 9N sputtered and died. I thought at first it was low on gas (for some reason the fuel tube to the sediment bowl sets a couple inches above the bottom of the tank). Filled the tank and set out again. Got into the woods and it sputtered and died again. After a couple minutes it started back up. Come to find that the longer it sits, the longer it will run. When it dies I can start it back up after a minute but it will only run for 30 seconds. If I let it rest for 10 minutes it will run for several minutes. Fresh gas. not running hot.

I'm convinced it is a fuel delivery problem. Too warm now to be ice in the system. Could it be some kind of debris in the system? Bad float?

deaconjim · #2 12/25/11, 06:42 PM

There is a resistor in the ignition system (I think it's located on the back of the dash). The resistor starts getting hot and causes the engine to die. After it cools, it will run again for awhile. It's a pretty easy fix.

plowjockey · #3 12/25/11, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinknal

Today my Ford 9N sputtered and died. I thought at first it was low on gas (for some reason the fuel tube to the sediment bowl sets a couple inches above the bottom of the tank). Filled the tank and set out again. Got into the woods and it sputtered and died again. After a couple minutes it started back up. Come to find that the longer it sits, the longer it will run. When it dies I can start it back up after a minute but it will only run for 30 seconds. If I let it rest for 10 minutes it will run for several minutes. Fresh gas. not running hot.

I'm convinced it is a fuel delivery problem. Too warm now to be ice in the system. Could it be some kind of debris in the system? Bad float?

When it dies, I'd spray starting fluid into the air intake. if it starts right up (on starting fluid), then i'd rule out any ignition problems and look towards fuel starvation, as you suspect.

I'd pull the sediment bowl, open the fuel valve and see if gas runs out, from the tank. If the sediment bowl filter is clean, I'd loosen the fuel line connection to the carb and open the fuel valve.

If that's OK, I'd do what I proably should have done in the first place, take the carb bowl off and see what kind of crud is in there.

A 65 year old tractor, that sits a lot with ethanol added gasoline, in the fuel system, is a crud making machine.

P.S. i'd also completely drain (100% clean) the fuel tank, before adding fresh gas.

Recently played this same game with a 67' Ford 4500. Rust and crud in the fuel system, inlcuding the fuel lines.

tinknal · #4 12/25/11, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deaconjim

There is a resistor in the ignition system (I think it's located on the back of the dash). The resistor starts getting hot and causes the engine to die. After it cools, it will run again for awhile. It's a pretty easy fix.

I suppose it could be, but I just replaced this part a couple years ago. It seems to me if this was the problem that it wouldn't start so soon after dying. Thanks.

fordy · #5 12/25/11, 07:45 PM

................At first crank the resistor allows full voltage to the coil thru the points , as time passes the resistor gets hot , resistance increases and the input voltage drops to the coil which reduces spark voltage to the plugs . It is possible for the resistor too reduce input voltage so low that the spark voltage won't jump the gap on the plugs . Your coil could be malfunctioning as well as could the points . , fordy

agmantoo · #6 12/25/11, 08:28 PM

I am in harmony with the problem being one of fuel delivery, actually the lack of delivery. There are 3 areas that can impact this. Above the cutoff valve at the bottom of the tank the inlet tube can clog with debris from the tank itself. Next is the sediment bowl and screen possibly clogged. Third is the brass fitting at the carb that the steel fuel line from the sediment bowl affixes. Few people realize that on the far end of that fitting is a screen.

With the fuel valve closed I would take the outlet line from the sediment bowl off. I would open the fuel valve and catch at least a pint of gas. The flow rate needs to be continuous and the size of a regular pencil. If less work your way back to the tank looking for a blockage. If the flow is adequate then take the other end of the fuel line from the fitting at the carburetor. Now you have to be careful as the fitting going into the carburetor will distort as you turn it. Use a 6 point box end if you have one and remove the fitting. The filter screen will be made to the end of that fitting. Check to see if the inside of the screen is clogged.
If the clog was in the fuel tank return here for a suggestion.

tinknal · #7 12/25/11, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agmantoo

If the clog was in the fuel tank return here for a suggestion.

I'm quite sure it isn't in the tank. For some reason the tube going to the sediment bowl sits about 2 inches above the bottom of the tank. There can be a gallon or two of gas in the tank and it runs empty because the tube sits so high.

Old Vet · #8 12/25/11, 08:54 PM

Some times it is the coil that gives this type of trouble instead of just going out.

farminghandyman · #9 12/25/11, 10:24 PM

there may be a drain plug in the bottom of the carburetor, remove it to make sure there is no water, crud, and that you have good flow, if you do not have good flow, then I would think the problem would be with the float and needle valve.

on old tractors a sediment bowl is your friend, if it does not have one add one,

HermitJohn · #10 12/26/11, 12:47 AM

Have you shown a flashlight to the interior of your gas tank when its empty? I had one old tractor that I got to just running hose to plastic gas can tied to side of tractor. Fighting with interior rust on old OEM gas tank was royal pain. You could clean, use the coating stuff, didnt matter.

As to ignition, there is a way to use points to trigger a Ford TFI ignition module from 80s/90s automotive ignition system to fire a TFI or GM HEI external coil. The TFI and HEI external coils are pretty much identical. Much hotter spark and no wear on the points since they only trigger (the module handles the current), no significant current flows through them. And no resistor or resistor wire needed. You can also graft head from a GM HEI distributor onto the points distributor, but lot more complicated and involved.

Waterwheel Farm · #11 12/26/11, 07:23 AM

I have an 8N I use occasionally. If I remember right, if you open the fuel valve just a couple turns, the fuel goes down thru the tube you're talking about up inside the gas tank. The tube is up off the bottom to keep from getting crud in the carb. If you open the fuel valve wide open, it is suppose to bypass the tube and feed off the bottom of the tank, like a reserve on a motorcycle. So I suggest opening the fuel valve wide open and see if you get gas. If you do, the you know the tube in the tank is restricted. If you still don't get fuel, maybe it's in the line going to the carb, or the needle valve sticking inside the carb, or the float assembly. Mine used to stick occasionally and I'd light tap the carb with a hammer and it would be fine for awhile.

PD-Riverman · #12 12/26/11, 08:20 AM

Try this-----have a flash light with you, the next time it does this look in the bottom of your tank where the fuel tube is for a minute and see if there is any air bubbles coming out of it. My 600 work master does this after I work it some. Never acts up just driving it only when it put it under some load. I call it vapor locking, it is getting the carb hot under some load and causes air bubbles which has to go up the line to get rid of them. I can also look at the sediment bowl when this happens and there will be a air space at the top that you will have to look close to see. I had the timing checked, it was right. I put a good fuel filter in my line and turned the sediment bowl sideways and that helped it to run longer, but would still cut off later with more air space in bowl. I tried running a 12 volt fan(my tractor is converted to 12 volts) blowing on and behind the intake/carb and that was a lot of help. I only used this tractor a little each year so I just learned to live with it. If it would cut off when I was disking the garden I would just go do something else for a while and let it cool some. My tractor was not running hot but the intake/carb was getting hot under load. I would come back and crank it up and disk some more. I started getting into planting some corn and I bought a new tractor. I still got my 1957 600 work master but I only use it for light work so I never tried other things to see if I could work out this problem. I was going to take a piece of flat metal to use as a heatsink/shield, drill 3 holes in it using the carb gasket as a pattern, putting it between 2 carb gaskets allowing this metal to stick out several inches away from the carb(look like a way to big carb gasket) to see if it would pull some heat away from the carb, but I did not try it. I had one other idea I was going to try if that did not work I was going to drill and tap a hole in the top of the piece that holds the sediment bowl(to the side of where the tube/bolt goes through it that bolts it to the carb) add a brass fitting so I could attach a tube and run the tube up higher than the gas tank with a filter on it----I was thinking this would give the trapped air some where to go which would keep the tractor running.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinknal

Today my Ford 9N sputtered and died. I thought at first it was low on gas (for some reason the fuel tube to the sediment bowl sets a couple inches above the bottom of the tank). Filled the tank and set out again. Got into the woods and it sputtered and died again. After a couple minutes it started back up. Come to find that the longer it sits, the longer it will run. When it dies I can start it back up after a minute but it will only run for 30 seconds. If I let it rest for 10 minutes it will run for several minutes. Fresh gas. not running hot.

I'm convinced it is a fuel delivery problem. Too warm now to be ice in the system. Could it be some kind of debris in the system? Bad float?

oneokie · #13 12/26/11, 10:42 AM

Agree with the above poster that it is the coil. Run the tractor long enough for it to die, pull a spark plug wire and crank the engine and watch for a spark.

rancher1913 · #14 12/26/11, 10:47 AM

tink-----been there done that. the n's had a two position fuel cutoff, part way out it pulls gas from the top of the tank down to about an inch above the bottom, all the way out is "reserve" and pulls the last of the gas to get you home. if you pull the compleat fuel bowl -it unscrews from the bottom of the tank-there is a intake screen on top of this asssembly that is cloged with sediment, clean it good and reinstall. you may want to clean the tank while the fuel bowl is removed to keep it from rehappening. you can tell if this is the problem by disconecting the fuel line at the carb--very little flow means that internal screen is clogged.

Windy in Kansas · #15 12/26/11, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tinknal

I'm quite sure it isn't in the tank. For some reason the tube going to the sediment bowl sits about 2 inches above the bottom of the tank. There can be a gallon or two of gas in the tank and it runs empty because the tube sits so high.

Often the fuel intake was such so that any water in the tank wouldn't get into the fuel stream.

Years ago I was taught a sputtering engine before dying is almost always fuel related whereas an ignition problem shuts the engine down almost immediately without any sputtering. Since you described sputtering I believe the problem to be in the fuel delivery system.

Do you removed the fuel cap to check for a vacuum after the tractor has died? Sometimes the cap vent will become plugged and a vacuum is formed inside of the tank as fuel is withdrawn so flow ceases. Removing the cap to release any vacuum and then trying to start the tractor should alleviate that aspect but I expect you did so when you checked for fuel level.

Also debris sloshing around inside of the tank can clog the intake via the fuel flow holding it to the intake. Doesn't sound like that would be the problem in your case, just pointing it out for others.

Would there be enough water at the bottom of the tank that some is getting sucked into the intake and is causing the sputtering. That however wouldn't account for the restarting when cooled down.

sammyd · #16 12/26/11, 03:34 PM

gas is not getting into your carb for one reason or another. Clean everything from the tube in the tank to the jets in the carb. I've had a couple of tractors do this, you wouldn't believe the stuff that shows up in a fuel system. Even with the pickup off the bottom of the tank by a half inch or so the tube from tank to sediment bowl has been known to fill up and block off enough to cause the symptoms you described.
Clean the lines, take your carb apart and thoroughly clean everything, check your float for leaks.

vallyfarm · #17 12/27/11, 01:22 PM

If this occurs ONLY when the tractor warms up, then it is likley electrical. Often condensor or coil problems. If this happens within 2 min. of starting it is more likley a fuel problem. Letting it cool lets the coil/cond. cool enough to allow the propper resistance. When hot they sorta overload. Had simmilar problem on an Int 240. Brand new coil lasted about 2 weeks and then started acting just like that 8N. Mike

coolrunnin · #18 12/27/11, 01:57 PM

I had this happen to my 1020 and it turned out to be the point gap. Very embarrassing as I had just replaced them.

Windy in Kansas · #19 12/27/11, 02:26 PM

I just reread your original post and it does sound like the tank is vacuum locked. The longer you let it set the more air goes in through a small air leak, less time less air so it won't run long until vacuum locked again.

Cap vent plugged?

tinknal · #20 12/27/11, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vallyfarm

If this occurs ONLY when the tractor warms up, then it is likley electrical. Often condensor or coil problems. If this happens within 2 min. of starting it is more likley a fuel problem. Letting it cool lets the coil/cond. cool enough to allow the propper resistance. When hot they sorta overload. Had simmilar problem on an Int 240. Brand new coil lasted about 2 weeks and then started acting just like that 8N. Mike

I really don't think so since it will start back up within seconds of dying.

I really doubt that it is a vacuum in the tank but I will crack the cap if it happens again.

Today I took the sediment bowl off, disconnected the lines and ran some gas through the lines. Started it up and ran it at both high and low throttle for about 10 minutes and it ran fine. I'll take it out later and cut a load of wood and see how it runs.