Brakes, or me?

[JanS]

I was backing out of a parking spot this afternoon and couldn't stop. Sped up, in fact. No one behind me so no harm done. I was a little shook up, thought I stepped on the gas instead of the brake and reminded myself to be more careful.

Took my daughter to the school at 4:30, no problems. Drove back down for her swim meet at 6, all was well. After the meet I went out to move the car from the lot to the school. I pulled over to the parking side to let another car pass and, again, couldn't stop. Once again I actually speeded up before stopping when I took my foot off what I thought was the brake. Ended up barely an inch from a parked car.

Did I really make the same mistake twice, or is something else going on here? Both times I had just started the car up in very cold weather and had no other trouble on the way home. The brake light was on two weeks ago, I added fluid and the light went off. Especially with the second time, it's hard to believe I missed the brake because I floored it trying to stop, if it had been the gas I would have taken out the whole line of parked cars....right?

[Darren]

What make and model car? Was the engine idling fast? Did the brake pedal feel hard?

[agmantoo]

Have the brake system bled. I think you have air trapped in the lines.

[Beeman]

First question is why was the brake fluid low and did you add the correct fluid? Fluid can become low from worn frt. brake pads but many times is an indication of a leak. A leak at the rear wheel cyls. will wet the shoes and prevent them from stopping. I don't know about the accellerating part. Possibly wearing boots or different shoes?

[foxtrapper]

Were you wearing different shoes? In particular, winter boots. Real easy to have some of that fat wide boot sole still covering the gas pedal with your foot casually over on the brake pedal.

No, I do not think the previous brake repairs have anything to do with these two events.

[Ed Norman]

I once drove 5 miles to the first intersection, put in the clutch, and the pickup remained at the same rpm. If I had an automatic transmission, there would have been trouble. I looked under the air cleaner and a mouse had packed 8 pounds of dog food and jammed the throttle linkage.

BUt I also vote for wide winter boots in this case.

[Ray]

on most cars any more there is a safety valve that is designed to close off if you loose pressure on a wheel. Like a front wheel cylinder or hose fails, it then allows a safety piston fastened to the brake lines on the undercarriage of the car to slide into a bypass position so you don't loose all of your braking capacity because of the failure of one brake cylinder.
This may leave you with a low brake fluid reservoir. Only front or rear breaks. which ever brake cyl. looses pressure, like the rt. front, will then close off all front breaks and you will only have rear breaks from then on. Until the repair is made and the safety piston returned to normal operating position. This is the way they worked several years ago. I don't know about yours.
Here the weather has been icy and a patch could cause your situation, just sayin. and i've done just what you describe, wrong pedal, myself, best wishes, ray

[JanS]

Thanks for the replies. Despite my advanced age as is obvious from my pic over there I've only been driving for three years. And I kinda taught myself so any little things like being careful when wearing different shoes are things I have had to learn in action.

The vehicle is a '97 Kia Sportage. I've never put in brake fluid before, it's checked when I take it in for oil changes although I can't remember if it was ever needed. A leak did cross my mind, I will check the level in a minute here. There was nothing unusual feeling about the brake pedal yesterday.

I have definitely noticed problems when I change shoes. Yesterday I was wearing my regular ones though. I don't discount that I COULD have hit the wrong pedal but after the first episode I was very conscious of being careful. Especially along that narrow access to the school, no sidewalk so kids walk the road in the dark. My gut feeling is that something is wrong. I was hoping to be talked out of it because I really need a vehicle the next couple of days.

[foxtrapper]

Well, lets pursue this a little more than.

You say you sped up, elaborate on this. Did you actually hear the engine reving up? Did it rev up strongly, or just a little bit? Did you release the brakes and re-apply them, or did you just mash the pedal harder, stopping the vehicle? Was the engine still reved up when you came to a halt? You can't give too many details! So please, do so.

Were these failed braking applications the *first* time you touched the brakes since starting the vehicle? The reason I'm asking has to do with vacuum. Your car has vacuum brakes. If the system leaks its vacuum off when sitting turned off (common problem), the vehicle will have no power assist at first, and will feel like it has no brakes. This problem is often times much worse in the winter because of the high idle a cold engine has. A high idle creates very little vacuum. Many a car requires carefull initial braking because of this. Usually the problem can be fixed by replacing the check valve in the vacuum line to the brake booster.

You may well have your foot on the brakes. But, also have the edge of your foot on the gas pedal. We've all done this. Including in our regular shoes. Can be for a hundred different reasons. Don't glibly discount it, we all do it, and a lot more than many realize.

[JanS]

The first time, the engine did rev up a little. I released the brakes and reapplied, both times the car didn't stop and backed up faster. Second episode, don't remember if it revved up or not. I didn't release, just pressed down harder.

With the first episode it was the first time I used the brakes after starting. The second time, I probably touched them to slow coming out of the lot but it was the first time I wanted a full stop. I drove this morning with no problem.

I don't discount driver error with the first episode. Even though I would have had to use the wrong pedal twice as I tried to stop twice. But that was on my mind as I started to brake during the second episode. Can't believe I wouldn't notice I was using or even just touching the gas pedal.

[foxtrapper]

Since it reved up, it's about 100% certain that your foot was pressing on the gas pedal. Not that your foot was fully on it and you were mashing it to the floor. Most likely just the edge of your foot was on it.

Most of us do a poor job of really getting our foot off the gas pedal and fully onto the brake pedal. We all slide our foot over just barely enough. That's why almost all brake pedals wear out on the right hand edge. I think this time your foot didn't quite make it.

It happens to all of us at times. I was doing it not that long ago for a day or two in one of my cars. I'd hit the brake and listen to the engine rev up. Since that car had a clutch, it wasn't a problem. But I could hear what I was doing. And that includes several times of completely lifting my foot and re-placing it on the brake. But still not clearing the gas pedal. What was the big deal on those days? Dunno.

[Wis Bang 2]

Back in Driver's Ed - When they actually taught things and you practiced in a car - We were taught things that are not taught today.

I was taught to 'cover your brake' when anticipating having to use it. We had to move that right foot over on to the brake. The habit always stuck. Yeah some times wearing mud or hunting boots makes it easy to catch the edge of the gas too. If you over react by releasing both pedals, your initial feeling that you are accelerating until you get focused on the brake. My '93 Jimmy had an early 4 wheel ABS brake system. The instant the ABS took over control you felt like the brake pressure was 'lost' & a split second later the ABS kicked in, it was dad's and he always said 'Feels like you are not gonna stop but you always do' and he was also riding a BMW K100LT w/ ABS and thought it was a fantastic thing on his bike!

Any feeling that the brake isn't working is disconcerting. Is it always while backing? Maybe your back brakes are worn +/or out of adjustment. Have them checked, if they are drum/shoes, the adjustment could make a real issue going backwards & down hill as all the weight is on the rear & the stronger fronts are not doing 85% of the work like going forward.

The in car lessons my daughters had were geared on learning how to parallel park & pass the test...no much skills training at all. No wonder they are making JR drivers licenses & stuff, they are not teaching them how to drive. How many times do you see someone turning left and cutting a diagonal path across the middle of the stop line you are approaching. We were taught to make 'tight rights & square lefts'....

Oh Yeah, were taught to stop at stop signs...not slow down!

[Darren]

Foxtrapper I was thinking along the same lines. When it's cold it takes longer to kick off fast idle thus you have lower vacuum for power assist. I'd suggest giving the engine enough time for it to warm up and for the idle to drop. That would provide maximum power brake assist.

We've had some lower temps in this area (I'm not far from SW PA) recently that could have contributed.

[tamsam]

Next time it is really cold out and the car has sat overnight or several hours start it apply brakes and put car in gear. If it moves get it in netural or park. You could have a drop of water in the line. If that is the case then it needs a power flush and bleeding. Hope you get it figured out. Sam

[redgreenblugill]

RECALLS for your Kia, some having to do with brakes.
I would also look at other recall years that are near your vehicle year.

Also notice the "false latching" of the seat belts!

http://www.automotix.net/autorepair/recalls/kia-sportage/

I agree with others, take it in to a professional shop (or somewhere/one you can trust) and have them (or you) do a thorough check (make sure the wheels are taken off to inspect all components, and check lines/hoses). Some places won't go to the extra effort and will just do a cursory once over, charge you, and send you on your way.

I agree with bleeding the brakes, but make sure you find out why fluid was lost.

Please don't ignore your brakes, especially because it involves the safety of yourself and others!

[blufford]

You hadn't been running through drifting snow just before this happened?

[JanS]

Originally Posted by blufford

You hadn't been running through drifting snow just before this happened?

Not either time.

I've been meaning to update. Haven't had further problems, but then I've been careful to let the car warm up before heading out. I need to take it in soon anyway (had to add power steering fluid twice recently and the 4WD isn't working) and will have the brakes checked out then. Since I've been widowed I have felt many times that I was cheated or talked into unnecessary repair work, in fact I've posted about that here. But I am lucky to have a car repairman that I trust 100%.

Thanks for that link. I HAVE had problems with the seat belt. Once in awhile it clicks like it latches, but when I lean forward later for whatever reason, it pops open.

[Danaus29]

Kia has a recall for seat belt issues just like you describe but your year is not covered under this recall:
http://repairpal.com/kia-sportage-recall-04v305000

Manufacturer recalls can easily be checked at the dealership if you give them your VIN. It would be worth checking.

[Mickie3]

You can also check for recalls on your Kia at http://www.carfax.com/kia_recalls.cfx using your VIN.

[haypoint]

Happens to me from time to time. Check for ice on the pavement.