Pro Loggers?

CrashTestRanch · #1 08/12/10, 01:45 PM

Anyone professionally log? We need some chainsaw advice.

We've bought half dozen different hardware store chainsaws, Poulan, Echo and such, but none of them last more than a dozen cuts into juniper/pinion pine. They start smokin the wood no matter how much pressure or not we use or simply throw the chain, even if properly tightened per instructions (maybe those with the plastic tighteners are junk???) some will not stay properly adjusted, and within 2 or 3 cuts sag so bad they throw the chain or bind. Tired of changing out chains and saws.

We've since sold every one of them on CL and now are looking for one that will last a LOT longer, any suggestions?

Husqvarna? Poulan? McCulloch? Stihl? Echo?

What type of chain should we be using on the juniper/pinion pine? Does it even matter? I would think it does, just like in framing, different blades give different cut finishes.

devittjl · #2 08/12/10, 02:12 PM

I would vote for Stihl. I have use them for years. My current one (Farmboss 290) alway starts even after sitting for months. Plus they are usually bought through smaller independent dealers which also provide service if necessary. The dealer would be able to make ecommendations on chain pitch as well.

woodsy · #3 08/12/10, 02:27 PM

Sounds like the saws were too small for the job at hand and maybe bar oil not lubricating the bar and chain properly. Different grades of oil for different temps. 30 wt. for summer and 10 wt. for cold winter work, 20wt. in between .
Oregon chains are the best, don't get anything not in an oregon box and be careful of counterfits.
As far as chainsaws go, Stihl and Huskvarna probably lead the pack for pros , i've been running Huskys for 15 years and have no complaints. I'm running a 359 Husky for the last 6-7 years, it does the work, i just have to hold on to it., LOL
Who do you have for dealers if any in your area? .
Nice to have a dealer of the saw around just in case.....

CrashTestRanch · #4 08/12/10, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devittjl

I would vote for Stihl. I have use them for years. My current one (Farmboss 290) alway starts even after sitting for months.

That sounds great compared to the ones we just sold, wouldn't start even after replacing plugs, fuel and oil, even being new out of the box.

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodsy

Sounds like the saws were too small for the job at hand and maybe bar oil not lubricating the bar and chain properly. Different grades of oil for different temps. 30 wt. for summer and 10 wt. for cold winter work, 20wt. in between .
Oregon chains are the best, don't get anything not in an oregon box and be careful of counterfits.
As far as chainsaws go, Stihl and Huskvarna probably lead the pack for pros , i've been running Huskys for 15 years and have no complaints. I'm running a 359 Husky for the last 6-7 years, it does the work, i just have to hold on to it., LOL
Who do you have for dealers if any in your area? .
Nice to have a dealer of the saw around just in case.....

So far, either Stihl or Husqvarna with Oregon chains. Ok, got it.

How about the type/pitch chain should we be using?

We'll have to check on the dealer situation.

CIW · #5 08/12/10, 03:52 PM

I've found that there is a lot of dirt embedded in cedar, juniper and pinion. It blown into the bark, then engrained as the tree grows. This in turn dulls a chain pretty quick when you go to cut it.
I find that the Chipper chains by Oregon, work best overall for those kinds of trees. They take a big kerf. Lots of sawdust.
File down the depth guides on the chain so that it takes a deeper cut and don't be afraid to resharpen a little more often. Your chain may be getting so hot that it is just burning the edge off of the tooth and stretching it.
Some folks don't sharpen thier own chains. I found that I had to have about a dozen chains in rotation with the saw shop to get anything done, so I learned to do it on site.
Make sure that your oiling ports aren't clogged.

Has the wood you are cutting been in a fire? If so, that will also dull a chain quickly.
When you first start to see that your saw isn't cutting perfectly, stop and tune up the chain. I also fill with oil each time I ---- down and tune the saw. You can run out of fuel, but if you run out of bar oil you are starting to wear parts very quickly.

CrashTestRanch · #6 08/12/10, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CIW

I've found that there is a lot of dirt embedded in cedar, juniper and pinion. It blown into the bark, then engrained as the tree grows. This in turn dulls a chain pretty quick when you go to cut it.

My brother and I were discussing this, and that is the conclusion we came to, had to be the dust/sand trapped in the bark. Either that or garbage/junk chains.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CIW

I find that the Chipper chains by Oregon, work best overall for those kinds of trees. They take a big kerf. Lots of sawdust.

Was wonder which TYPE to get, looking at Oregon's site just made the choice even more confusing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CIW

File down the depth guides on the chain so that it takes a deeper cut and don't be afraid to resharpen a little more often. Your chain may be getting so hot that it is just burning the edge off of the tooth and stretching it.

Some folks don't sharpen thier own chains. I found that I had to have about a dozen chains in rotation with the saw shop to get anything done, so I learned to do it on site.

Make sure that your oiling ports aren't clogged.

Has the wood you are cutting been in a fire? If so, that will also dull a chain quickly.

When you first start to see that your saw isn't cutting perfectly, stop and tune up the chain. I also fill with oil each time I ---- down and tune the saw. You can run out of fuel, but if you run out of bar oil you are starting to wear parts very quickly.

Good info you got there, thanks

timberhog · #7 08/12/10, 08:24 PM

you want LP or LG chain if that helps you

TNHermit · #8 08/12/10, 08:24 PM

When you decide on a saw Check out Baileys. They can sell you a carbide chain at pretty good price, Talk to the guys there they have always been helpful

They have good prices on saws too

http://www.baileysonline.com/search....geNo=1&x=0&y=0

agmantoo · #9 08/12/10, 08:32 PM

Go to the Oregon site and read how to break in a new chain. It does wonders for the chains longevity.

CrashTestRanch · #10 08/13/10, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timberhog

you want LP or LG chain if that helps you

Thanks timberhog, that helps a bunch ... narrowed the field considerably

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNHermit

When you decide on a saw Check out Baileys. They can sell you a carbide chain at pretty good price, Talk to the guys there they have always been helpful

They have good prices on saws too

http://www.baileysonline.com/search....geNo=1&x=0&y=0

Now that is cool, didn't even think they had such a thing. We used carbide blades working metal, but never thought of one for a chainsaw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by agmantoo

Go to the Oregon site and read how to break in a new chain. It does wonders for the chains longevity.

Thanks for the info, I hadn't noticed that on their site, was focused on chains, thanks Agman. BTW, these chainsaws are gonna be used to clear out the north 40 ...

CrashTestRanch · #11 08/13/10, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timberhog

you want LP or LG chain if that helps you

Just an FYI, according to Oregon the LP series works best in clean cutting conditions, where there is limited contact with dirt and other abrasive materials.

Forty Acres · #12 08/13/10, 06:28 AM

You will not be happy with a carbide chain if you are cutting trees. Carbide chainsaw chains are made specifically for cutting into roofs and demolition work. They will cut firewood, but are slow. Extremely expensive.

I use full chisel chains. Extremely fast and aggressive. Difficult to hand sharpen properly. Most shops will change the grind from square to round when they are resharpened. I happen to have a full chisel chain grinder.

Round chisel chains are the best bet for most people. Slightly less aggressive than full chisel. Can be sharpened with a round file, dremel or chop saw type chain grinders. Stays sharp longer than full chisel.

Keep your chains out of the dirt.

Bret4207 · #13 08/13/10, 07:34 AM

Okay, former Husky/Jonsered dealer here. There's nothing "wrong" with your saws per se. Or the chain either. It's operator error, sorry. For cutting up a little wood the big box store saws will work, for a while. They won't last like a Husky or Stihl, no. But used with care you can get some miles out of them, till you break them or they just wear out.

From what I read you have a problem cutting wood with dirt/grit embedded in the bark. So, the simple solution is to use an ax, hatchet, even a shovel to scrape the bark off the area you want to cut. The more complex solution is to learn to sharpen your chains. Husky makes a dandy little roller jig for the various sized chains. Available at Lowes, etc. Put the jig on the tooth, give it 3-5 strokes at the easily seen angle and move onto the next tooth. Simple as pie. Do NOT file down the rakers. Use a gauge and only take them down as far as needed. Running the rakers down is fine with a big saw with guts and a guy understanding whats going to happen when he touches the saw to wood. It's not good for small saws and noobie users. Oregon, Stihl, Windsor, Carlton, all make excellent chain. There are lots of no name chains that are made by the same plant but don't have the brand name. Baileys carries their own line as do some other outfits. You may find going to a non- consumer safety anti-kickback chain helps, but if you aren't a "chainsaw guy" you might not want to go that route.

Chain also has a break in period where it stretches. Adjust the chain properly as i stretches. Make sure the bar is oiling. Just rev the saw up and hold the tip near a surface of some sort. You should see a mist of oil start to gather on that surface. If not, some saws have an adjustment for the oiler and sometimes there's crap in the oil holes that blocks flow.

Chipper type chains (rounded profile) tend to handle dirt better than chisel chains. But, a guy used to fast cutting chisel may not want to use slower cutting chipper chain. If you have a little homeowner type saw that has the Pico type chain you may not have a choice. You might want to look into a Stihl, Husky, Jonsered, Dolmar of 3.0ci at least. That will get you up into the 3/8" pitch chain where you have a lot of choice.

Also you have to have the correct size file to sharpen a chain. Any old round file will not do. If you try and sharpen a 1/4" pitch chain with a 7/32" file meant for a 3/8" pitch chain you'll ruin the chain. A too small file and you won't have the proper radius to cut right.

CrashTestRanch · #14 08/13/10, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forty Acres

You will not be happy with a carbide chain if you are cutting trees. Carbide chainsaw chains are made specifically for cutting into roofs and demolition work. They will cut firewood, but are slow. Extremely expensive.

I use full chisel chains. Extremely fast and aggressive. Difficult to hand sharpen properly. Most shops will change the grind from square to round when they are resharpened. I happen to have a full chisel chain grinder.

Round chisel chains are the best bet for most people. Slightly less aggressive than full chisel. Can be sharpened with a round file, dremel or chop saw type chain grinders. Stays sharp longer than full chisel.

Keep your chains out of the dirt.

Good to know, may get some of those carbide ones for demo work on the out buildings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bret4207

Okay, former Husky/Jonsered dealer here.

What do we do with the NIB saws that refuse to remain tensioned? You know, the ones with the plastic tensioners with the injection molded nuts in them?

Strip/skin all the bark in the cutting area of all our pinion/junipers (40+ acres) before we start cutting with a chainsaw?

These pinion/juniper stands have limbs and trunks less than 12" diameter. We should be sharpening the chains every 3-4 cuts?

Round Full Chisel/Chipper chains are better for our application in pinion/juniper correct?

We will invest in a chain sharpener, planning on having 2 of us running and one sharpening if we have to sharpen a chain every 3-4 cuts or sooner. I don't see how those pros are stripping the pinion/juniper stands around here in such short notice if they'er spending 80% of their time sharpening chains, doesn't make sense.

But guess that's why I'm here asking questions and those guys are stripping acres and acres in a few days.

Madsaw · #15 08/13/10, 03:27 PM

Ok, I hope I will not confuse you any more then what has been done. A few things to look for to help you make your decision are. Location to dealer for support on the product you buy. Also what ever saw you choose make sure it has a good air filtration setup. Remeber how fast them chains dull? The fine saw dust will clog a filter fast and cause the saw to wear itself out sooner. Now thinking about the filtration, Husqvarna/Jonsered has better filters on their saws then teh older line of stihls. Stihl has came out with a newer line of saws fallowing the air injection system of husky. But with anything new form one company you pay more for the thecnology. I myself run husqvarnas for firewood. It will save you sometime to have a spare filter to swap out during a day of cutting. Anything in the 455 and up saw range from husky will more then do what you need. Look to get a bar around 14 inchs or so. Less cutters to sharpen and less expense for the chains
Now for chains. Right off the bat your needing semi cheisel chain, period. Now stihl makes good chain it will stay sharp a bit longer but its harder to sharpen. Its cutters are hardend more. It is also expensive. Next is Oregon good chain and easy to sharpen. Then from baileys you can get Carlton and woodsman pro chains. I have not ran much carlton only in fully chiesel and I love it. Tad harder then oregon but not as hard as stihl. I would suggest any saw you get to run a 3/8 pitch chain in no safety form
Learn how to hand file your chains. Also go to Northern tool site and look up chain sharpeners there. They have a good electric sharpener that is a copy of the 510 oregon for around $100 or less. This will help to keep the angles on the chains true and speed up keeping a good set of spare chains ready.

Bob

Bret4207 · #16 08/13/10, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrashTestRanch

What do we do with the NIB saws that refuse to remain tensioned? You know, the ones with the plastic tensioners with the injection molded nuts in them?

Are you saying you bought a chainsaw with PLASTIC bar nuts on it? Can;t believe that. Hey, you ARE loosening up the bar nuts before trying to adjust chain tension, right? If not that's a big art of your problem.

Strip/skin all the bark in the cutting area of all our pinion/junipers (40+ acres) before we start cutting with a chainsaw?

These pinion/juniper stands have limbs and trunks less than 12" diameter. We should be sharpening the chains every 3-4 cuts? Then don't do it. I just gave you an option.

Round Full Chisel/Chipper chains are better for our application in pinion/juniper correct? Chipper handles dirt better.

We will invest in a chain sharpener, planning on having 2 of us running and one sharpening if we have to sharpen a chain every 3-4 cuts or sooner. I don't see how those pros are stripping the pinion/juniper stands around here in such short notice if they'er spending 80% of their time sharpening chains, doesn't make sense.

But guess that's why I'm here asking questions and those guys are stripping acres and acres in a few days.

Okay, apparently you got your jollies off on the cleaning the tree idea, but I know of places where the cutters carry a wire brush and brush off the area they are going to cut. Do as you wish, but I think you need some major education on how to use the saws. I'd get to a good dealer and have him instruct you.

CrashTestRanch · #17 08/14/10, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bret4207

Are you saying you bought a chainsaw with PLASTIC bar nuts on it? Can;t believe that.

YES, Bar nuts that are injection molded into PLASTIC. I know this because I had 2 of the PoulanPro I just sold on CL, those were the ones that would not hold the bar nor the chain tensioned. PURE box store JUNK, not operator error.

I've include a link here that you may find informational, Poulan aka McCulloch aka Husqvarna: Poulan Pro NO BAR NUTS It includes the instructions and shows the SINGLE NUT PLASTIC INJECTED, called the Bar Knob, the whole assembly along with the tensioner is PLASTIC. Even the "guide" bolts are injection molded into the plastic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bret4207

Hey, you ARE loosening up the bar nuts before trying to adjust chain tension, right? If not that's a big art of your problem.

Yes I am, per the manual that even had nice big pictures and diagrams for idiot chainsaw owners like myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bret4207

Okay, apparently you got your jollies off on the cleaning the tree idea, but I know of places where the cutters carry a wire brush and brush off the area they are going to cut.

I was questioning your line of thought. As we are on the internet and I have heard some crazy stuff, and this one seems out there, so I questioned the validity. Especially after watching folks in the area clear a lot of stands of juniper/pinion, and not once did I spot them brushing or skinning the cut area. But it is an option that I will further research.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bret4207

Do as you wish, but I think you need some major education on how to use the saws. I'd get to a good dealer and have him instruct you.

I do need some more instruction, hence my questions here. I will also ask the dealer I buy the chains and saw from for even more info.

As for sharpening the chains after 3-4 cuts, that's another one I'm having a hard time swallowing. An average tree takes a minimum 3 cuts to fell, so we should be sharpening after every tree downed? And if we are limbing? Again, I'm just questioning your line of thought, not looking for a debate nor fight.

Forty Acres · #18 08/14/10, 05:45 AM

[QUOTE=As for sharpening the chains after 3-4 cuts, that's another one I'm having a hard time swallowing. An average tree takes a minimum 3 cuts to fell, so we should be sharpening after every tree downed? And if we are limbing? Again, I'm just questioning your line of thought, not looking for a debate nor fight.[/QUOTE]

Back in my woodcutting days, I would touch up the cutters after each tank of gas. Five swipes per cutter with a proper sized file. This is done without taking the chains off of the bar.

At the end of every day, pull the chains, clean everything with compressed air and regrind the chains with a chain grinder.

Just remember, dirt is your enemy. Keep the chain out of the ground. Touch the tip of the bar to the ground and it will take the edge off of your chains immediately.

Bret4207 · #19 08/14/10, 07:57 AM

Crash- do as you wish. You were given one option among others. Obviously you don't know as much as you think. Sawmills routinely wash the logs they mill before cutting and in areas with highly abrasive soils it's recommended logs be washed or brushed free of loose dirt before blocking. But don't believe me and Oregon, Carlton, Windsor, Stihl or anyone else.

Best of luck to you.

CrashTestRanch · #20 08/14/10, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bret4207

Sawmills routinely wash the logs they mill before cutting and in areas with highly abrasive soils it's recommended logs be washed or brushed free of loose dirt before blocking.
Best of luck to you.

Thanks Bret, can you provide links to the data? I would like to further read up on this.