Toyota all-wheel-drive vehicles

Joel_BC · #1 02/23/10, 06:18 PM

My wife and I have an old (1997) Rav. Thinking of updating. Problem: Electronics and their failures (esp with respect to the Prius) have been much in the news. We tend to like things pretty basic, and have driven Toyotas (pick-ups, and a Rav) for many years. We actually like manual transmissions, too (though this is rapidly becoming a technology of the past... an earlier discussion on Shop Talk here).

When travelling, we have sometimes rented late models and had problems develop with such things as door locks - old manual door locks seemed simple and understandable by comparison with modern electronic ones! A sweeping generalization maybe, but as things have gotten fancier and features have gotten more extensive, cars seem to have become more finicky - and expensive to maintain.

Right now, we have a trusty '97 Rav 4-door, with manual windows and door locks. We like it! But we're thinking that, although well-maintained, maybe we should look at something newer. But I'm not sure how much of the desirable "old tech" simplicity (and reliability) it is still possible to get. We live well out of town, and getting repairs on basic but essential things can be very inconvenient. Put simply, I don't want to have to get towed, while on some retired logging road, over some stupid little thing!!

We're thinking of replacing our Rav with a newer model... But all the electronics on the newest ones kind of make me wary. Between the '97 and the 2010, which years might offer the least amount of "standard" & unavoidable electronics. Among the concerns would be the question of reliability of electronics involved with the engine and running gear.

Advice, comments, and opinions on the reliability (and cost of repair) issues are all welcome. Thanks.

Windy in Kansas · #2 02/24/10, 07:30 AM

I certainly agree about the simple ones being better. I sometimes think we would be better off to spend thousand of dollars to rebuild older vehicles to bring them back to new condition than to replace them with newer models.

The tax and insurance advantages alone would provide considerable savings.

Of course the disadvantage is in getting parts once a vehicle reaches a certain age. The really old Chevys tend to have plenty of parts availability with even new fenders and other body parts now becoming available.

Old can be good but will never really have that new car smell we all enjoy nor provide the fun of that new car experience.

Joel_BC · #3 02/24/10, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windy in Kansas

I certainly agree about the simple ones being better. I sometimes think we would be better off to spend thousand of dollars to rebuild older vehicles to bring them back to new condition than to replace them with newer models.

The tax and insurance advantages alone would provide considerable savings.

Of course the disadvantage is in getting parts once a vehicle reaches a certain age. The really old Chevys tend to have plenty of parts availability with even new fenders and other body parts now becoming available.

Old can be good but will never really have that new car smell we all enjoy nor provide the fun of that new car experience.

The points you make are all good ones. Personally, I can do without the new-car smell.

I'm in a mountain valley, rural British Columbia, western Canada. Toyotas have been extremely popular here due to overall reliability (at least the older models), good handling in snow conditions, good clearance for rougher roads, and engine durability. Also, many of their cars have been pretty good on fuel consumption.

Yeah, I'm all for staying with "simple" (which can be better) - if possible. I just don't know all that much about models (of, say, the Rav) that Toyota made after 2000.

plowjockey · #4 02/24/10, 05:50 PM

The Prius did not have a electronic brake failure. Some users reported an inconsistant "feel" when applying brakes on slick roads, using the ABS. Toyota is making a software change.

Your '97 probably has a lot more electronics in it, than you might think.

I disagree that cars electonics are getting more "finicky". It's not uncommon for any make of car to go 150-200k miles, without major electonic problems. Much better than in years past. Failures are for sure, often hard to find and can be expensive to fix.

I have a 12 year old Japanese made Pathfinder, Never any problems with any electronics. It has a 5 speed manual, but power windows and locks, CC, Etc.

DW has a 06' Toyota Highlander Hybrid LE AWD (Japan built) that probably has more electronics, than any vehicle ever built. So far (60K miles) it has performed flawless. I don't doubt, however, that if there is problems, They will be hard to spot and very expensive to fix. Keeping fingers crossed.

You should be able to get nearly any vehicle (stay away from Mercedes or Audi) with an auto transmission, power accessories, even AWD and have it hold up well for many years.

cfabe · #5 02/24/10, 11:51 PM

Yes, newer cars have more electronics and they are more complicated for a shadetree mechanic to repair. However, I don't believe that they are in any way less reliable than older vehicles, in fact I claim the opposite. New vehicles can usually go 100k miles with only minor maintenance. Plus, all those fancy electronics are there for a reason - they are providing you with better performance, fuel economy, safety, and/or reliability than the old mechanical counterpart.

Now if you consider the bells and whistles stuff, like heated seats, sunroofs, backup cameras, bluetooth, etc sure those are added features that are probably not "necessary" and will be expensive to repair down the road. But I would not be afraid of new vehicles just because they are more electronically integrated. And the bells and whistles sure are nice if you decide to go for em.

cfabe · #6 02/24/10, 11:53 PM

Oh I also wanted to point out if you shop around, you can still find some vehicles with plain-jane features and manual transmissions. Mostly pickup trucks and lower end cars. If you do happen to want a large family sedan with crank windows, no A/C, and a stick shift, I suppose you would probably be out of luck.

travis91 · #7 02/28/10, 10:16 AM

ill take a simple basic vechile over the luxury model with leather seats any day. i drive a '94 ford explorer basic package with roll up windows and manual locks and 5-speed transmission. needless to say with 315,000 miles its lasted.

HermitJohn · #8 02/28/10, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travis91

ill take a simple basic vechile over the luxury model with leather seats any day. i drive a '94 ford explorer basic package with roll up windows and manual locks and 5-speed transmission. needless to say with 315,000 miles its lasted.

I dont know if I've even seen a 90s or newer vehicle with manual rollup windows. Rollup windows and manual transmission seem to be rare critters anymore except on the cheapest of cheap little econoboxes. You may have a collector piece.

blooba · #9 02/28/10, 04:44 PM

Jeep Wranglers..... My '04 has manual locks,windows and most controls. I really wouldnt go any newer unless you wanted the bigger body because they have started to go with cheaper parts but power windows and stuff weren't even an option in '04.

P.S. A Kia Rio is also available with manual windows and stuff. Or at least was in '07. You can even get it without A/C or a radio even, like $10k

fordy · #10 03/01/10, 05:09 AM

.......................My '08 Ranger has rollup windows , auto and no cruise control , although , at some point I may have one installed ! The ABS system on this truck has an UNbelieveable amount of technology that controls all it's requisite functions ! And , it's a simple 4 cylinder that gets about 23 mpg . , fordy

HermitJohn · #11 03/01/10, 11:02 AM

Wait until you have to repair that ABS system. Get ready to take out a second mortgage.....

cfabe · #12 03/01/10, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HermitJohn

I dont know if I've even seen a 90s or newer vehicle with manual rollup windows.

Just last week I had a brand spankin new Chevy Aveo rental car with crank up windows, no power locks, no cruise control. It did have A/C and an automatic transmission, though. But I believe you can get it without those, too.

HermitJohn · #13 03/02/10, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfabe

Just last week I had a brand spankin new Chevy Aveo rental car with crank up windows, no power locks, no cruise control. It did have A/C and an automatic transmission, though. But I believe you can get it without those, too.

I dont keep up with names of the modern wonders, but isnt Aveo GM's entry mini car? Same with KIA Rio somebody mentioned above. My point was you cant find anything beyond a stripped entry model that you can find crank windows and manual transmission. These are stripped price leader entry level cars. Not that you cant find ANY car. So tell me about something besides entry mini cars. Any half ton pickups with manual tranny, roll up windows, and rubber floor mat? Any 4wd at all with manual hubs and manual shift transfer case?

Joel_BC · #14 03/02/10, 10:44 AM

Well, am I basically right or wrong in thinking that more "automatic" and electric-circuit controlled features make a car: a) more susceptible to disfunctions and break-downs, and b) more expensive to maintain over the long term?

Wis Bang 2 · #15 03/02/10, 11:46 AM

My 2005 Silverado WT [work truck] has manual door locks and crank windows and manual seat adjustment. There is still a bunch of electronics, the passenger air bag sensor arms the air bag if there is eough weight, it tells you when a doorr is open or which seatbelt isn't hooked, etc.

I like it w/ manual windows, etc. as our '93 Jimmy has gone thru (2) driver's door window motors and a bunch of it's electronic Do Dads no longer work...

Lady I used to work with had to order her new Civic to get crank windows, etc. but they were available. Dealers tend to go w/ the 'popular' option groups when they spec the cars they put on the lot.

JUllom · #16 03/07/10, 06:26 PM

Was in a toyota dealership for service last week and they had a new tacoma (small pickup) 5 speed, maybe manual doors and locks as well, but not for sure. Good luck, i'm still a believin 2 toyota family and will be for a long time.

OntarioMan · #17 03/07/10, 08:01 PM

I've seen 25 year old cars where the power windows still work perfectly, and I've seen 3 year old cars where the power windows have failed. I don't think the fact that its "automatic" makes it more unreliable or not durable. It may or may not be.

For the most part, complicated systems tend to fail in complicated ways... and complicated usually means expensive. So yes, more expensive to maintain and repair in the long run.

I think "newer" also means expensive. My nephew is a mechanic at an auto dealership, and he tells me stories of customer repair bills for newer cars which are out of warranty... it is truly insane.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joel_BC

Well, am I basically right or wrong in thinking that more "automatic" and electric-circuit controlled features make a car: a) more susceptible to disfunctions and break-downs, and b) more expensive to maintain over the long term?