sawdust keeps pipes from freezing?

[busybee870]

i was told by a friend, that if you have about a foot of sawdust all around your pipes , they would never freeze. WE were talking about how to insulate new water line in an area where you can always get a foot deep in the dirt due to bedrock. With a new well coming and a good bit of water line coming to the house i need the best way to insulate without alot of money. anyone ever heard of this?

[Bearfootfarm]

I would think in a year or so it would just rot away and then youd have no insulation at all

[farminghandyman]

could use a 4" sewer pipe and place the water line in it and have some location you can use a fan to blow warm air into the 4" line, when it is cold, would need a place for the air to exit as well,

or use different sizes of foam pipe insulation and then go to a larger size and cover it again, and a gain until you have 4 to 6" of insulation on it, if concerned about rodents an the like place that in a protective pipe like thin sewer pipe,

run two lines and put a circulator pump on them, to keep the water moving,


or a combination of the ideas above,

[busybee870]

True Barefoot, But I Could Use Plastic Sheeting And Wrap It Up And Tape It So I Have It Incased In Sawdust,
Farminghandy Man, That Would Work To But All That Wrap Gets Costly Doesnt It? I Have Only Seen Small Pipe Foam Wrap At Lowes, Where Do You Get Larger Wrap? I Could Do It If I Found It Cheap, And Then Insert It Into A Large Pipe And Cover The Pipe With Soil, Hmm

Thanks For The Ideas Both Of You

[Cabin Fever]

IN Minnesota, water pipes are placed below the frost line. When sewer pipes are installated, the contractor places that 2" blue foam board over the pipe.

[busybee870]

Well They Should Be Below The Frost Line Here Too, But... We Have Bedrock Hers So We Cant Always Dig That Deep, So Im Looking For A Way To Insulate Well Being As It May Be Very Close To The Surface, Any Suggestions Are Appreciated

[busybee870]

My Line Will Be To The Right Of My Drive Way And Protected From Anything Going Over It

[michiganfarmer]

Originally Posted by busybee870

i was told by a friend, that if you have about a foot of sawdust all around your pipes , they would never freeze. WE were talking about how to insulate new water line in an area where you can always get a foot deep in the dirt due to bedrock. With a new well coming and a good bit of water line coming to the house i need the best way to insulate without alot of money. anyone ever heard of this?

Never freeze? your friend is high on crack.

a foot of sawdust should be fine in arkasas

[Dahc]

Originally Posted by busybee870

My Line Will Be To The Right Of My Drive Way And Protected From Anything Going Over It

If the saw dust gets wet, which it will, it will freeze also and facilitate the freezing of your pipes. I would go with the wrap if at all possible. Saw dust would absorb any ground water it comes into contact with but it "seems" to me that grain straw would allow it to filter down and since it's 100% cellulose, it wouldn't absorb it. It's got to be grain straw if you use straw though. Feed straw will trap it and freeze too.

[OntarioMan]

If you dig 12" to rock, and frost line is 30", couldn't ya just fill the hole with dirt and pile on another 18+" of dirt on top?

Originally Posted by busybee870

Well They Should Be Below The Frost Line Here Too, But... We Have Bedrock Hers So We Cant Always Dig That Deep, So Im Looking For A Way To Insulate Well Being As It May Be Very Close To The Surface, Any Suggestions Are Appreciated

[rambler]

Some of us get frost to 5 feet or so, so comments like 'never freeze' with a foot of sawdust are kinda funny. Locally bedrock is about 480-500 feet down, mostly all yellow clay down to there.

Sawdust is a good insulator _if it stays dry_. It won't if you just burry it, so would not be a good long-term solution. Would fill with water or rot & be worthless as mentioned in a short time, no different than regular dirt.

Some blue foam type of good insulation over the top, covering a few feet in width so a bubble of warmth can stay from the rock below should help, but I don't know enough about it to give specific ideas of exactly how to do that.

If you only have a foot to worth with, doesn't leave much room to work with, pipe will take an inch or 2, add 2 inches of insulation and room of irregulars, and you only have 6" of dirt protecting it all.

--->Paul

[crafty2002]

Did you make a mistake in the first post when you said you could always get down a foot deep or is can supposed to be can't?????
The frost line in Va. is 12". I would think Ark. is even less than that.
If the area where the pipe will be exposed to direct sunlight during the day, I really wouldn't be too concerned about it if you can get it down . I would bury it as deep as you can and anywhere it isn't 6" to 8" deep, add some top soil or even bvack fill, to build it up until it is that deep.
It takes a several days af very cold weather for the ground to freeze even 6" deep and even then, if there is direct sunlight on it it never gets very deep.
I have dug a lot of footings in the winter and even after a week of super cold weather around here the top would be froze solid but it would be thawed out 3 or 4" deep.
Plus every time use use water you are brings up water that is well above freezing and that will help keep the ground from being as cold around the pipe.
Dennis

[busybee870]

crafty ..yeah its supposed to be "can't", so as long as it has close to a foot of dirt on the sides and top , with the pipe insulated in say the foam wrap , then it should be ok? even if its sitting on bedrock?

[farminghandyman]

For pipe insulation of larger sizes one would probably have to order it, or check with a plumbing or refrigeration supply outlet, (refrigeration supply a place that supplies in a place that sells and repairs commercial refrigeration, plumbing supply is business that supply plumbers, not a hardware store. you many have to go through the plumber or refrigeration repair person to order the products,)

I am sure it would cost some, but I guess one would have to make a decision what it cost to fix and repair a frozen water line in January and see if you think the cost is worth it,

YOU have a situation and usually to work around the problem is has some cost regardless, digging out the bed rock, is not cheap, putting in heat is not cheap, Insulation is not the most expensive method, but keeping water out of it or using insulation that if it does get some wet, it does not rot or lose insulation value,

I did a quick Google search and found a number of places with pipe insulation for up to 24" pipe in the first page.



the other thing I would do is talk to a plumber or well man and see what the standard procedure is in your area to keep water lines from freezing in your area,
Why try to reinvent the wheel,

[Ken Scharabok]

I am sure I have seen pipe insulation made for thicker pipe. You may have to go to a hardware store and special order it. Seems like I've seen for 3/4" or 1" and for 2".

I do not recommend sawdust. It will rot. It will compact. It will lose insulating value when wet.

Program on one of the channels a couple of days ago. During WW-II the British seriously considered building an aircraft carrier out of ice, which was actually 14% sawdust and 86% water. They found this made an incredibly strong substance which was far less susceptible to melting than standard ice.

I would recommend covering the pipe with foam insulation. Then slip on and glue lengths of PVC pipe large enough for the insulationed package to fit into. You want it to be as water tight as possible. Pipe plus insulation should be about 2 1/2-3" in diamater, which should slide nicely into a 4" PVC pipe.

[Rocky Fields]

Hey.

michiganfarmer said "Never freeze? your friend is high on crack."

You didn't specify...Is that plumber's crack?;-)

RF

[Jim S.]

I've had good luck simply using the same slip-on foam pipe insulation that you use under your house. You can buy it at Lowe's and Home Depot up to 1". Be sure you use electrical tape to secure it, and be sure you leave no gaps, even at the els.

There is also a super-duper version that's made of a rubberized material, also at either store.

If you were to put your pipe inside a 4" pipe, as suggested above, I'd recommend using a roll of continuous corrugated black drainage pipe. Cheap and effective. The air gap created would in itself help prevent freezing, even if you did not pump in warm air. Be fine for Arkansas, I would think. Plus, if it did burst, replacement would be easy.

For the exposed part of buried hydrants, I have had good luck enclosing the pipe above ground with a piece of corrugated plastic pipe. I fill the pipe with styrofoam packing popcorn and seal the top with Great Stuff. Where once the cold sometimes traveled down the exposed pipe to the valve and froze it there, now they run free all year. The black corrugated pipe, which I split in order to slip it over the standpipe, holds the sun's heat some and keeps the wind from chilling the standpipe.

The bury depth here is 2 feet, but that can be inadequate at hydrants every once in awhile when it drops down real low for a couple days or so. I have had to redo over the years with insulation of some type most of the outdoor fixtures already installed when we bought.

[Ken Scharabok]

"For the exposed part of buried hydrants, I have had good luck enclosing the pipe above ground with a piece of corrugated plastic pipe. I fill the pipe with styrofoam packing popcorn and seal the top with Great Stuff. Where once the cold sometimes traveled down the exposed pipe to the valve and froze it there, now they run free all year. The black corrugated pipe, which I split in order to slip it over the standpipe, holds the sun's heat some and keeps the wind from chilling the standpipe."

You can also install frost-free faucets. Have a type of valve at the bottom which empties the stand pipe when the handle is closed. These do require a stone pit underneath the el so the water can drain away from the pipe.

[fishhead]

How big is the line to the house? I would assume you aren't talking about a 4" pipe.

I would think the corrugated black non-perforated drain tile pipe would work fine for insulation. You could always put one end deeper into the ground to collect the heat from the earth.

[poorboy]

Here in mo. I use a foot of sawdust where my water line comes out of wellhouse and about a foot and a half pile around the wellhouse. As long as i refresh an add alittle each year it never freeze. Good to -20 f.