Need Vehicle Purchase advice!

[Freeholder]

Not sure this is the right place to ask this, but . . .

Grandma and I own two vehicles between us. Hers is a 1987 Ford Taurus; mine is a 1993 Plymouth Voyager. They are both paid for. They are also both old and in need of work, although still running okay. We've had several break-downs with the Taurus in the last year or so, nothing major, but figure major is coming. And neither of us is a mechanic (and Grandma is almost 94).

We live twelve miles from town, and I work four days a week in town, plus extra trips for church and this and that. We try not to make unnecessary trips, but it still adds up to quite a few miles of driving. As of today, the cheapest regular gas in town is $3.21, and I expect it will be over $4.00/gallon by the end of the summer (if not sooner, at the rate it's been going -- up almost a dollar a gallon since the first of the year).

There are three adults in the family; Grandma, myself, and my autistic DD. I also have livestock (chickens and dairy goats) and have to haul feed. I use the van for hauling hay right now; wish we had a pick-up, but the van can carry up to seven three-string bales of alfalfa at a time, and that lasts about three weeks. (Ought to last over a month if I ever get the number of goats down to where it should be!)

Last factor, is that we are on a tight budget. I figure we can come up with a couple thousand for a down payment within a couple of months, and with Grandma and I both pitching in we think we could afford up to three hundred a month for payments. I would REALLY rather not have car payments -- we have no debt at all right now, and I'd like to keep it that way, but we may not have much choice. I don't know what our credit ratings look like, as I haven't checked in several years. But neither of us has had credit cards or any payments on anything in quite a while, so we may not have enough credit history to get the best interest rates.

So, my questions are, first, are we going to be better off going to our bank for a loan for a car, or going through a dealership?

Second, would we be better off looking for new or used?

Third, what should we look for that would be in our price range, do what we need a vehicle to do, and be reliable and fuel-efficient? I am NOT a 'car person' at all, and don't normally pay much attention to makes and models. I have a couple of ideas, but am not sure they would work or be affordable (I do plan to go around to car lots in the next few weeks and do some looking, just to get an idea of what's available).

If we can find something reasonably efficient that will carry all of us (and an occasional extra person or two), and haul hay, then I could sell my van and we'd only have insurance, registration, tires, etc., for one vehicle instead of two.

Help! :baby04:

Kathleen

[Beeman]

What shape is your van in? How many miles, what engine, and how well has it been maintained? If the van is in good shape I would lean towards getting rid of the Taurus and keeping the van. I would put a trailer hitch on the van and get a small trailer to haul hay, goats, etc. This would keep you with a people transporter and still be able to haul hay. Going in debt doesn't sound like what you want to do. A pickup truck wouldn't give you the people hauling capabilities you need unless you went for a mid size like a 4 door Dakota pickup and now you're talking bucks.
I would try and get outside financing unless there is a real super interest deal from the manufacturer.

[morrowsmowers]

Your almost always better off buying used, especially if you can deal with someone that you trust, either a dealer or a private owner. New cars loose a lot of their initial value very quickly and you will pay higher insurance just because it is new. If you know a mechanic that you trust have him/her check over any vehicle you are thinking of buying.

For farm use I would want a pick up. However, it may not have enough seating for your requirements. A full size truck will hold 3 adults on the front bench seat (not if you get buckets) and will either have a small rear seat or those fold out seats for a few in the back if they can fit. A crew cab is nice but a lot more expensive in most cases.

Another option would be to get something like a compact SUV and then tow a small utility trailer for those times you need to more large amounts of supplies and animals. That would give you more people capacity in some cases, depending on the vehicle you pick.

When we bought our van (2000 Chrysler Town & Country Limited) we bought it from a local "Buy Here, Pay Here" dealer. They sold it to us for about $2000 under current list for that model in great condition. We had bi-weekly payments on it that we paid directly to the dealer. It was a great deal for us and we still love that van.

Ken in Glassboro, NJ

[OntarioMan]

Personally, I'd never buy a new vehicle - but that does not mean that I don't think that a new vehicle makes sense for some people. If you drive a great deal, drive very frequently, need a very dependable vehicle, etc., a new vehicle may be for you. My wife drives a great deal, often far from home - she has a new vehicle.

There is no vehicle which is perfect - none will get exceptional fuel economy, seat 5 people, haul a huge amount of cargo and be cheap to purchase - everything is a compromise.

It may actually cost the same amount to have two vehicles as it does to have one vehicle - for example
- vehicle #1 is the "hauler" and gas guzzler - example a F150 or large van, etc.
- vehicle #2 is an economy car - example small 4 cylinder

Use the "hauler" to haul and the economy car to commute. What you end up saving in gas will pay for the extra insurance costs - but now you have two vehicles instead of one. The vehicles may also last a bit longer since you're driving each of them less. If you drive older/used vehicles, its always a good idea to have more than one vehicle.

Also beware of insurance rates - your "new" vehicle may be more fuel efficient, but it may cost far more to insure - so anything you save in fuel just goes to the insurance companies - and it may actually end up costing you more to drive that fuel efficient vehicle. Remember, total cost of ownership includes fuel, insurance, repairs, interest on money borrowed, tags, etc.

[Freeholder]

Thank you all for a lot of good advice!

The van is not in really good shape -- it hasn't had any breakdowns but actually needs more work than the old Taurus. It's also a four-cylinder engine and probably wouldn't do well towing a trailer. Overall it's been pretty well maintained, but the first ten years of its life it was in New Hampshire, where the roads are salted in the winter -- vehicle lifespan there is short. Right now it needs (probably) a new head gasket, a new exhaust system or part of one, new shocks all the way around, and something else which I'm not remembering right now.

I'll take your suggestions to Grandma and we'll talk about them. We have talked about it being nice to have an extra vehicle around, in case one ends up in the shop for a while, but we could probably manage with one rig that was able to pull a trailer. I just don't see how we are going to get something that will be reliable without having to make payments. We could get another old clunker like the ones we already have, but that wouldn't be solving anything really.

I do like having a reliable vehicle -- I am no mechanic, and on those occasions when we've had to drive some distance from home, I'm praying the whole way that we'll make it home without car trouble! I've only had a new car one time, and it was so nice to not have to worry about it breaking down (it was a little Toyota Tercel, and it got great gas mileage, but was too small for a farm truck, LOL!).

Thanks again!

Kathleen

[redgreenbluegil]

Try credit union for car loan if possible, rates are sometimes lower. Dealership might be OK, just make sure you get everything in writing and then take it home with you to look it over for the fine print (fees, etc.).
Avoid trading in your vehicles at the dealerships for the most part. Some dealerships actually up the price of a vehicle if they know you are going to give a trade-in (whenever I hear the "push it in or drag it in and we'll give you $1000 for your trade" I usually assume that the vehicle they're trying to sell is already overpriced by at least $1000 if not more). Given the age and the fact you said they are starting to break down, you probably won't get much $ from the vehicles you have if you sell privately. You might consider keeping the more reliable or useful of the two as a backup vehicle and switching the insurance to part-time use and liability only.
A new vehicle would be nice, but as you know you'd have higher insurance for collision, sales tax = more $, and plates = more $ on a newer vehicle (at least in IN). I'd go the used vehicle route. I wouldn't go with anything more than about 10 years old though, as the hassle of old stuff breaking down all the time really stinks.
A vehicle that could haul 3 people comfortably and haul assorted ag stuff too usually points to a van, station wagon, or extended cab truck. That being said, the mileage usually isn't spectacular on these vehicles. I'd opt for a vehicle equipped with/or install a hitch and use a small trailer for the hauling so it doesn't beat up the interior of your vehicle (better resale value later on).
As for specific suggestions for a vehicle, I'd keep looking around the car lots and write down makes/models of anything that you're interested in. Then go to sites like www.carreview.com or www.epinions.com to see if they have any reviews on the make/model. Carfax.com also would help in a specific vehicle's history, but it is a fee-based site and you need the vehicle's VIN number to do the search. Some vehicles also have recalls and/or TSBs (technical service bulletins) that you can find on the Net by googling the vehicle's make/model and then "recall" and/or "TSB".
To give a reasonable estimate of what you'd expect to pay for a vehicle, try Kelley Blue Book at www.kbb.com.
Once you have narrowed down your search, I'd bring along someone who is a "car person" to give the once over on the vehicle.
Some things that I might look for in a multi-use vehicle:
* relatively low miles (for me this is under 90,000 for a gas engine, under 150,000 for a diesel)
* rear wheel drive (as far as I know it is said to be better to tow/haul with as far as longevity compared to front wheel drive, although front wheel drive can be much better in the snow in my opinion)
* whether you go with automatic or manual transmission make sure it has an overdrive (OD)= saves gas, but avoid towing/hauling with the vehicle in OD.
* if the vehicle smells musty under the floor mats, keep looking. It may have a leak in the floor pan, window seals, or may be a reconditioned "flood car".
* don't know if you smoke or not, but avoid cars that have been smoked in. this has to do with resale and also is detrimental to electronics.
* if you drive the vehicle and you smell a pungent sweet smell, you're probably smelling antifreeze leaking from somewhere. keep on looking IMO.
* take vehicle up to speed to check for vibrations, etc.
* take vehicle to a mechanic to check out, although this can also be a crap shoot depending on the mechanic.
* look on the door jamb of the vehicle or in the owner's manual to find the carrying capacity of the car to give you an idea if the car can handle the weight.

Post the vehicles you're thinking about, maybe we could give our 2 cents on them.

[travis91]

heres just the thing for that old van........http://www.farmshow.com/issues/29/03/290305.asp

[Freeholder]

LOL! That van-turned-into-a-truck is the same van I have, only mine's blue! (I suppose he repainted.)

As we were shopping today, I was glancing around the parking lots to see what looked like it might work for us. Does the Ford Ranger or any equivalent sized pick-up come with a crew cab, or an extended cab (wouldn't need to have four doors, as long as a young adult could squeeze into the back seat)?

For smaller vehicles, I was thinking Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic (I know those have pretty good reliability ratings -- our church in NH had a parking lot full of Toyotas!).

What I've talked to Grandma about so far is getting a small fuel-efficient vehicle to replace her old SW, keeping my van to use as a farm truck for now. (We used to have a guy at church who did a lot of welding and machine work -- wish he was still here -- I've have him turn my van into a truck like the one on that website!) I think that's probably what we'll end up doing. Maybe in another year or two we can replace the van (if the price of gas hasn't gone so high that we just plain can't afford it).

Kathleen

[lsulenes]

You might think of looking for another minivan. If you are looking for something that is going to be used for working (farm/animal) and not a fancy passenger vehicle this is a good purchase. You will have the same room as a SUV might give you to move/transport things without the gas guzzling issue. Even with many miles (250,000) our still gets 22-25 miles per gal.

Hubby is a mechanic so we are lucky and able to locate good deals and if you know someone who is mechanical this would be helpful. I raise sheep with the occasional goat thrown in and have even brought new purchases home in the back with a seat taken out and a huge tarp on the floor. As I'm sure realize, it is amazing the types of things you can do with a minivan. I like the fact that it doesn't matter what the weather is like because it isn't exposed to the elements. The other thing that is neat is that the newer ones have allwheel drive so driving is better.

Good Luck!!

[Up North]

Blue Juniper -
As to financing a car purchase, you should shop and compare financing. discuss what your bank or credit union will offer you, and compare that to what dealer offers you before deciding.
Your budget points towards purchasing a used vehicle. Do not be misled by new and used vehicle advertisements based on payments of "X" dollars per month. Unfortunately, advertised payments for lease or purchase plans on new cars rarely materialize without lots of fine print details and large sums of downpayment cash from the buyer.
When looking at used cars, keep in mind that any vehicle 8 model years or older will not be a vehicle banks or lenders will want to offer financing on.
Also, the older the model year from current models, the higher the interest rate and shorter the loan term will be, hence resulting in higher payments for you. BEWARE of credit insurance and mechanical warranty contracts offerred above and beyond price of car payment. These are usually presented as "only a few dollars a month more" when in reality the seller is making large profits on these items.
Realistically, you should limit yourself to looking at used vehicles of not more than $13,000 to finance on 48 month term given the financial parameters you have indicated. Your downpayment cash will be partially consumed by sales tax, license and registration fees, so only a small part of it will go towards reducing total principal financed.
Try to avoid buying a used vehicle with an excess of 60,000 miles on a finance plan of 60 or more months. While a lender may offer you this to keep your payments where you want them, this is BAD for you because vehicle will be worn out before it is paid for.

Your ( sensible) concern over gas mileage and your overall needs point towards a minivan or station wagon product.
This is a lot of info I know. Hope it helps you. We would all like to pay cash and drive a used car or truck that never breaks down, LOL. But reality is most Americans will finance their auto needs and make payments, because we don't want to walk and few of us own a horse, LOL.

Good Luck

[beorning]

Shop around for a loan at banks or credit unions first, then talk to the dealership and see if they will beat your best bank offer. Most often they will.

Definitely buy used.

At the amounts you quoted ( $300 per month and a few thousand down) you should have no problem getting whatever you need.

Toyotas are good, and a bit cheaper than Hondas, most of the time. The Corolla is a great car.Imports are almost always more expensive than domestic cars.

You could probably find a used Taurus at a good price. They're decent cars with horrible depreciation, so they tend to be cheap.

Passenger space in small pick ups with extended cabs is pretty tight. I wouldn;t want to sit back there for long. Good for kids, dogs, or cargo though.

[agmantoo]

search craigslist.org in your area I see lots of owner to owner sales of decent vehicles and at reasonable prices

[Beeman]

Originally Posted by BlueJuniperFarm

LOL! That van-turned-into-a-truck is the same van I have, only mine's blue! (I suppose he repainted.)

As we were shopping today, I was glancing around the parking lots to see what looked like it might work for us. Does the Ford Ranger or any equivalent sized pick-up come with a crew cab, or an extended cab (wouldn't need to have four doors, as long as a young adult could squeeze into the back seat)?

For smaller vehicles, I was thinking Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic (I know those have pretty good reliability ratings -- our church in NH had a parking lot full of Toyotas!).

What I've talked to Grandma about so far is getting a small fuel-efficient vehicle to replace her old SW, keeping my van to use as a farm truck for now. (We used to have a guy at church who did a lot of welding and machine work -- wish he was still here -- I've have him turn my van into a truck like the one on that website!) I think that's probably what we'll end up doing. Maybe in another year or two we can replace the van (if the price of gas hasn't gone so high that we just plain can't afford it).

Kathleen

After your post about vehicle condition and the fact that the van is a 4cyl. I guess the best bet is to sell both vehicles and start fresh. Ford, GM and Dodge make smaller pickups that are extended cabs and they also make 4 doors. The smaller versions like the GM or the Ford have a bed the size of a wheelbarrow. The Dodge is longer and has a larger bed. To get fuel mileage you might want the 4 cyl but it will limit pulling power. I would be more inclined to go the small sport utility and a small utility trailer route. When you go look at new truck prices this might all go out the window. I honestly don't see how anyone can afford some of these vehicles.

[Freeholder]

Originally Posted by Beeman

After your post about vehicle condition and the fact that the van is a 4cyl. I guess the best bet is to sell both vehicles and start fresh. Ford, GM and Dodge make smaller pickups that are extended cabs and they also make 4 doors. The smaller versions like the GM or the Ford have a bed the size of a wheelbarrow. The Dodge is longer and has a larger bed. To get fuel mileage you might want the 4 cyl but it will limit pulling power. I would be more inclined to go the small sport utility and a small utility trailer route. When you go look at new truck prices this might all go out the window. I honestly don't see how anyone can afford some of these vehicles.

I know -- my step-father just bought a new truck, a Dodge, 4WD, diesel. I asked how much he'd paid for it -- $34,000 (approximately)! I could buy land and build a cabin for that!

Thanks again to all of you. I've printed off your advice so Grandma can look at it. I'll do some checking after this coming week, probably -- am busy trying to get stuff planted right now, while we have a patch of dry weather.

Kathleen

[Freeholder]

Okay, I've been doing some research and here is a list of some vehicles that I think would work for us. I'd love to have some feedback -- I'll do some checking at Consumer Reports, too, for their reliability ratings. I've found at least one of each of these listed in Oregon within our price range, and without too many miles on them. (I like the mileage the Jetta diesel gets, but doubt we'll ever find one we can afford, LOL!)

Ford Escape (small SUV, 22-25 mpg) 4WD

Ford Taurus Wagon (21-26 mpg)

Subaru Forester AWD (22-27 mpg)

Subaru Legacy wagon (24-31 mpg)

Toyota Sienna minivan (18-24 mpg)

Toyota RAV4 2WD (SUV) (24-29 mpg)

VW Jetta Wagon 2.0 L, 5 spd. (Or diesel 36-47) (24-31 mpg)

VW Golf wagon/suv (24-31 mpg)


Thank you again!

Kathleen

[Beeman]

Just me but I wouldn't be interested in any of your picks.

[Up North]

I would scratch the Ford Escape and RAV4 from your list, IMO. Small inside, short wheelbase which means poor ride quality and more prone to rollovers. Not familiar with Toyo Forrester.The VW cars could be good - if you have repair shop/dealer that will work on them for you. Parts & service on VW will generally be more costly than other models you have listed. The Sienna or Taurus Wagon would probably fit your needs well, IMO.

[Freeholder]

Originally Posted by Beeman

Just me but I wouldn't be interested in any of your picks.

I doubt that any of them would be what I'd *like* to look at, either, but in going through a bunch of listings on-line here in Oregon, these were the ones that came up that looked like they'd pull a small trailer, but still get fair gas mileage for daily use. And they were all under $10,000, so we could presumably afford the payments.

I'm open to other suggestions, though!

Up North, thanks for your assessment on some of the vehicles on my list -- that's the kind of information I was looking for. Safety, reliability, and economy are all important criteria. I'm not too worried about a nice ride -- we've almost always driven older vehicles, usually ones that were el cheapos even when they were new, so while a nice smooth ride would be lovely, it's not necessary. But the roll-over information is the kind of thing I'd like to know about. I'm a pretty careful driver, but we do get icy roads (and have a lot of deer on the roads, too -- I've almost hit one a couple of times, and there's almost always one laying alongside the road somewhere between here and town).

There's probably a shop in town that works on VW's, but if the parts and labor are more expensive on them, that's a good reason to cross them off the list, too.

What I'd *really* like is an old pick-up, one that would be EMP proof should such an event ever happen, but I know what kind of mileage they get, and it's not too great! Besides, you need to be a good mechanic if you own something that old.

Thanks again!

Kathleen

[Beeman]

It sounds like you got good service from your Caravan, why not another? Chevy,GMC small vans like the Astro are rear wheel drive and tough vehicles. Usually pretty resonably priced. I'd go with a V-6 and gain a little power even though it will effect mileage a little.
I never believed I'd say this but 10k is a low figure when it comes to shopping for late model cars, forget about trucks. There's also the fact that this country went truck crazy and blew the prices out of sight.

Driving is just going to keep getting more and more expensive in years to come. I honestly don't know how many will afford a vehicle or the fuel to put in it.

[Freeholder]

Originally Posted by Beeman

It sounds like you got good service from your Caravan, why not another? Chevy,GMC small vans like the Astro are rear wheel drive and tough vehicles. Usually pretty resonably priced. I'd go with a V-6 and gain a little power even though it will effect mileage a little.
I never believed I'd say this but 10k is a low figure when it comes to shopping for late model cars, forget about trucks. There's also the fact that this country went truck crazy and blew the prices out of sight.

Driving is just going to keep getting more and more expensive in years to come. I honestly don't know how many will afford a vehicle or the fuel to put in it.

You are right that driving is going to keep getting more expensive. I've actually been praying that our two vehicles would last until we couldn't afford to drive anymore, which I think will be in the not-too-distant future. At this point in time I hate to sink good money into expensive items that will be worthless before much longer -- it's probably about how the oil companies feel about investing money into their refineries, when we are at or very nearly at Peak Oil. (Although with the difference that the refineries are still making money for the oil companies.)

We had dinner last night at the home of some friends from church. I knew that Paul drove an old pu (1965 Chevy), but didn't realize that he'd picked up an old diesel VW car for commuting. He just got it and it needs some work (which he'll do himself -- I sure wish I knew more about doing mechanic work so I could fix things myself), but for $750 he has a very fuel-efficient little car. If I was a good mechanic I'd look for something like that.

Kathleen