Need help with electrical estimate/invoice

[whipsaw]

I got a shocking invoice from the electrician Monday. Long story short, I asked for a 320 meter base at the street, a 200 amp panel 80 feet into the property, and conduit for various runs including a sub panel over near my well head. All the ditches were provided for the contractor. The estimate for the feeder wire was $9.68 per foot (direct bury heavy cable) which includes labor. I was billed 120 feet for labor/materials for the 80' ditch. Does anybody know if this is typical? I asked them about it, and they said they "used about 100' of wire in the ditch, plus 10' each side to go up out of the ditch and into the panels." I guess I am not understanding first, where the mystery 10' went, and also why I should have to pay labor on that. It's my own fault as the bid just gave a price per foot, not the exact length which would be used.

[Harry Chickpea]

Looks like he dinged you for about an extra $100 +-. It is common to overbuy in length because you CANNOT splice it if you measure too short. He was a little too conservative, but not terribly so. I wouldn't sweat it.

[Cookie2]

It is like buying carpet - they have to charge you for the entire width of the roll even if they cut off part of it. For instance, if you buy carpet that is 12' wide and your room is 8' wide, you still pay for the 4' that is cut off.

A contractor can buy exactly the number of feet of wire they want . Electricial wholesale supply companies has large rolls of wire & will measure & cut off the length asked for .

[whipsaw]

I guess my issues are twofold.

First: There is labor included in the per foot price. Why would I pay labor on waste?

Second: At such a high rate per foot, why IS there so much waste?

I didn't even mention the 30' at $9.68 per foot I was charged that is just hanging off the meter base for the electrical company to hook up. I'm paying labor on that wire, too. This seems like a rip-off. It's like if I did a landscaping job where I charged a per plant price installed, and then I left them a bunch of random plants for the customer to install themselves or whatever, but charged them labor on it. I'm paying almost $10 per foot for wire that I can buy at home depot for less than $2 per foot. It's not passing the sniff test.

Also, regarding the carpet comparison- if I pay a carpet installer to carpet 1000 sq ft of space and he has to buy a 1200 sq ft roll, I don't pay him to carpet 1200 sq ft.

Did they cover the trench after unrolling the wire in it or was the labor charge just for unrolling the wire ?

[whipsaw]

I PROVIDED the trench. All they had to do was run the wire and conduit, and set the meter base and panel. I have not paid the bill yet because I almost fell over when I saw it. We're talking about 70 extra feet at $9.68 per foot which was unexpected, and also the fact that everything is based upon 120 feet and not the 80. The bill is a good $1000 higher than I expected, and we're not even done. At this point in time, I am trying to figure out a way to pay what's fair, and find another electrician. I feel they are trying to soak me.

You really have to do your homework when dealing with people . I watched a show on TV about a lady that had an outdoor faucet on the side of her home that wouldn't shut off . She lived in a warm southern location that didn't freeze & the faucet was a boiler drain type faucet that just screwed on to a pipe sticking out of the wall . Maybe a $10.00 faucet . A plumber came out & replaced it . Just screwed the old one off & screwed the new one on . Took about 10 minutes maybe . Charged her over $300.00 & she gave the plumber a tip .

I would measure the ditch with a tape measure , add enough to go up to the panels on each end with a couple extra feet on each end & tell them that's all I was paying for . It's common to allow a little extra to make sure the wire is not too short but 20 or 30 feet extra is excessive . On the ends enough should be allowed to go from the bottom of the trench to the top of the panel & back down to the bottom of the panel .
A couple feet more than this on each end is acceptable even though it ends up being waste .

[Cookie2]

I understand your shock. One time I hired a general contractor to fix some water damage in my kitchen. At first we were going to use lino for a quick and easy floor replacement. Then it turned out that the only way they could lay the lino was to result in multiple seams and A LOT of left over material. I decided to instead use laminate to reduce the amount of material needed and get a better looking result.

Well, the stupid contractor ordered the laminate based on his estimate of how much lino he would need! When they delivered the cartons of laminate I was shocked. I had so much laminate I could have replaced the flooring in my entire HOUSE, not just the kitchen. Okay, the kitchen was large but they delivered easier 3x's more laminate than was needed.

And the contractor wouldn't take it back! He said I had to pay for all of it or there would be a restocking fee. The guy was an idiot. To make the situation even worse, they sent out a worker that had no experience laying laminate (which is supposed to be a DIY project, BTW) nor did he have any experience laying any kind of flooring! The guy made so many miss-cuts, he wastes two entire boxes of laminate. Now I know there is waste when you're laying plank flooring, but this guy seriously would start cutting into a plank, decide he was cutting the wrong way, toss the plank aside, and make the exact same mistake on the next plank.

We ended up taking them to Better Bureau mediation and we won. The contractor went out of business shortly after that. The floor was put down so badly, the local authorized dealer for the laminate manufacturer came out and put down a whole new floor.

I will say, when the contractor buys the material, they are allowed to put over-head on the material cost in order to pay for the effort of ordering, picking up / delivering, and financing the material. The over-head should be reasonable but it is usually applied to all the material left on your property, even the waste that you can't use. As to the long piece that the power company will hook into, usually they require a certain amount to work with. I know it seems unreasonable how much they require but it can be a lot.

Still, it sounds there is a little room for negotiation there. Consider anything extra you pay to be an education expense. In the future, don't accept any estimate that doesn't include a TOTAL price and some kind of assurance that the final bill will be within +/- 10% unless you make a specification change (which requires a new written estimate that you sign.)

You're right , I just looked at home depot & you can buy a 500 foot roll for about $950.00 which is less than $2.00 a foot not counting tax . Most of the stores like Home Depot & Lowe's Home Improvement will cut however many feet you want off a large roll . Probably be a ( little ) higher by the foot but nothing like what you paid . Your contractor should have been able to roll out the 80' in the trench in 30 minutes easily . You're getting ripped .

[whipsaw]

Thank you all for replying. I am going to handle this with a cool head, and just move on. I get frustrated but it will all work out. The owner of the company is actually a nice guy.

I bet he smiles a lot .

[Harry Chickpea]

Electrical contractors do NOT buy wire or cable from big box stores. You simply do not understand the way contracting works. An electrical contractor will typically use two or three suppliers. Why? because he NEEDS those suppliers to stay in business. On February 2nd after a snow storm, his supplier will be able to get him three meter boxes, 500 ft of 4 aught aluminum, and if he can't when he walks in, it will be there the next day, no extra charge. Home Despot will cheerfully say "We are out, the next delivery is in two weeks." They will also be stocking the CHEAPEST materials they can buy from China, while the supplier KNOWS if he sells crud he will be out of business in a year.

Print out the thread. Take it to the contractor an his supplier. Let them read it. Ask tehm. Take it to Home Depot and let THEM read it and ask an employee out of camera range. I am a pennypincher and ready to go to the mat if I'm being raked over coals. This ISN'T one of those cases. You might have been dinged $100 or even $150 on a small job that honestly, if you consider it, you could have done yourself except making the connections (due to code and safety issues in some areas).

I paid day labor $15/hr to help me lay conduit in a trench. It was hot hard work. Real cost for an apprentice or assistance to an electrician is double that once you add in insurance, soc. sec., and all the overhead.

[whipsaw]

I paid for the knowledge, not the labor. None of the work is particularly taxing. I could probably have fumbled my way through it, but it's not something I was interested in. I'm also not into financial surprises, and padded invoices.

Have Harry show you the thread about Japans nuclear meltdown & how well he understood facts he stated in that thread .

[a'ightthen]

A chunk of unknown variables here to consider.

Did the contractor come out and measure the ditch? Did he make a trip to make the estimate?

These things are important considerations.

The price agreed on was per foot ... whom measured it? Just saying that a phone call hunting a price on 80' of ditch leaves one pondering is it 78 or 87 as details tend to favor the one cutting the check.

So it came down to a price per foot. Even at an exact 80', an additional 30' to go up a pole is not unusual. Different power companies require different lengths extending out of the weatherhead for terminating ... often in excess, but so it is.

If he was to provide the conduit, he was also to provide the straps, connectors and the weatherhead + leave enough additional conductor for the power company.

Did he provide the ground system? Permit fees? Did it pass and power get applied?

I really have no clue as to the entire scope here but there are incidentals to consider. He also accepted liability.

Supply houses do not always tender 100 ft of wire when one orders it ... might be 95 or 105. Some of that hanging may be the result of "extra" ... but what would have happened if it was 5 ft short?

Just food for thought.

[whipsaw]

Thanks for all the replies. They've since discounted the invoice around $300 for me to more accurately reflect the distances. I still think it's a little high, but so be it. I think I wasn't expecting so much waste. As far as measuring, I measured out all of the distances for them beforehand, and put stakes into the ground for all locations, then had the contractor who is installing the septic dig the trench. It's a 3' trench.

If I read the OP correctly this run of wire goes from a meter base to a 200 amp breaker panel . No going up the pole or weatherhead required in this run . If panels such as the meter base & breaker panel was included in the price for this run the OP didn't indicate that but if they were that would change things considerably. I've bought thousands of feet of all different sizes of wire & many pre-cut pieces . If the pre-cut piece I requested was too near the end of the roll for a usable amount to be left over the supply company would either cut it anyway or give me the extra free of charge .
I will agree with a previous poster that a contractors primary source of material isn't a big box store but many times I've been out in the field & a whole lot closer to a big box store than my primary supplier & have purchased material from them for a matter of convenience . Of course I was the owner of the company & not some lackey sent out on the job & could do as I pleased .
As far as a contractor going out of business because of using inferior Chinese products from a big box store I will go out on a limb & say that for example I believe a square D breaker or breaker panel from a big box store is not inferior to a square D breaker or panel bought from an electrical wholesale supplier & the wire a big box store sells is approved for its intended use just the same as the wire is from an electrical supply wholesaler . I wouldn't be at all surprised if it all wasn't made at the same factory wherever that may be .
I could buy from my primary wholesale suppliers just as cheap or cheaper than I could from a big box store so a much larger markup wasn't required when buying from an electrical wholesale supplier .
There's reputable contractors that actually spend the time to prepare a fairly accurate estimate & there's shady characters that are thinking short term gain & rip off everyone they can . In my experience it's the latter that doesn't stay in business long . What idiot is going to call them back for another job later knowing they are going to get ripped again .
Not being privy to the exact terms & conditions of this particular contract I can only assume that the OP has told us basically correct information to the best of their ability . In all my years of doing contract work I never ( knowingly ) charged a customer for 120 or 130 feet of wire that only required 100 feet to accomplish the job .
By the way I have wired everything from a table lamp to a contract job for a new sewer treatment plant in a fairly large city & practically everything in between .

Originally Posted by whipsaw

Thanks for all the replies. They've since discounted the invoice around $300 for me to more accurately reflect the distances. I still think it's a little high, but so be it. I think I wasn't expecting so much waste. As far as measuring, I measured out all of the distances for them beforehand, and put stakes into the ground for all locations, then had the contractor who is installing the septic dig the trench. It's a 3' trench.

I was typing at the same time you was so didn't see your last post until I posted mine . Good for you for at least getting some relief in this situation . You didn't need to pay one of his grunts wages for a week on an overcharge .