pine trees everywhere

[TexasGunOwner]

We have zero experience homesteading, but are currently looking at a property. It's in a great location for us, in zone 8b, has some cleared areas where grass is growing.

Anything we should be aware of, avoid, or plan on doing, to prep the area for a large garden?

From what I understand, pine trees, and their needles, can cause higher acidic soil conditions.

[o&itw]

Hopefully some other Texans will provide an answer. Pine trees in a southern region tend to be an indicator of a drier area where they outperform most deciduous species. I have no idea what area of Texas you are speaking of (it's a big state) In most of the southwest that I am familiar with the soils are alkali, so the needles would be a plus. If you are more towards Arkansas, the soils might be "gravel-like" under a shallow topsoil. If so an area in a creek bottoms would be best for a garden. Best thing to do is look around at neighboring farms and see how successful they are growing what ever you wish to grow (pasture, garden, crops) Some areas like the Ozarks of Arkansas and Missouri, are not the best choices for crops.

[Sonshine]

Our 2 acres is covered in pine trees. We have no problems raising a garden. If I'm not mistaken, if the soil is too acidic you may need to add lime, or wood ash to it. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. All we have done to our soil is to add wood ash, compost and the manure from our chickens and goats.

[TexasGunOwner]

We're north of Houston. Tons of pine in our neck of the woods.

I'd like to measure off an already cleared area, add some type of garden friendly soil, till it in, and get to work.

I haven't done a ton of soil research yet. But in our area, enriched and lawn soil is about $30 a yard.

[kaitala]

I do not believe that pine needles acidify the soil. There are many studies that support that, and here's a link to a rather complete explanation of why, check out the "mass" post by Wikileeks:

tannic acid in oakleaves - Topic

Dr. Abigail Maynard is famous for her experiments on this, but I can't find the link to the paper that was posted in 2001 debunking the myth of acidifying soils with pine needles.

"Pine Straw" is often used as mulch. Why not keep the pine trees, buy a mini-baler you tow behind the lawn or small tractor, and sell pine straw?

[Whisperwindkat]

We have loads of pine trees and have no problems with the soil being too acidic. We do take our wood ashes though and apply them to the pastures and to the garden each winter. If you worked them into the soil that might be different, but just having the needles on top of the soil or used as mulch around the beds I don't think creates an issue.

[geo in mi]

Eliminate your guesswork by starting here: Cooperative Extension System Offices

In Texas, you have two Universities that support the Co-operative Extension Services; you'll have to click on each one to find out your county to get the extension office that serves you. Ask them about soil testing--a pretty good thing to do if this is the first time the area is going to be in a garden. A soil pH test will tell you if it is acidic and what to do about it.

geo

[o&itw]

You can buy an inexpensive pH meter and can keep your soil on track. The cheap meters work well, but you MUST clean the probe with very fine steel wool, or some other very fine abrasive, whenever you take it out to use it. The metals in the probe(s) work by the intensity of galvanic action, and will oxidize in a few days causing the probe not to work correctly.

I threw my first one away, not knowing this and thinking it was junk

[TexasGunOwner]

Thanks for the input!

[Paquebot]

Had to wait until I had my regular computer back before replying. It is not a myth that pine needles will lower the pH of soil. Anyone growing plants which require such soil already knows that. White pines lowered the pH of soil from 5.9 to 5.0 in a 20-year study by the US Forestry Service.

Long-Term Soil Chemistry Changes in Aggrading Forest Ecosystems

Martin

[How Do I]

We've got a lot of pine trees. I use pine tree needles every year on our flower beds and under some of our trees as a mulch. They've never seemed to mind it. I doubt I would try growing these plants directly under a pine tree though.

[txtruelady]

Sounds like you may be close to us. Pines are fine, we use the needles for covering potatoes. We also mulch them then let them rot then mix with other soils. They can be a pain because we have pine beetles here that kills the trees sometimes.

[kaitala]

Interesting paper, Martin. I was wondering if you could explain a few things about it, though, as it seems they didn't account for why the cation exchange complex changed. They did attribute some of the basal saturation changed to increased biomass, possibly linked to the age of the white pine forest and the previous clear cutting without debris removal, and there might be assumed leaching from the area being left bare for the water experiment of 15 years.

Is that an area that was prone to acid rain over the 20 year lapse in studies or during the water study when clear? The immaturity of the wp forest , or bare soil, might have allowed for more saturation of the soil by acidic compounds in acid rains. Also, during the water experiment, it was kept bare by "chemical means", could the herbicides have left acidic residuals, or compounds that changed the cation exchange complex?

Were they actually able to attribute the CEC changes to the leaf litter of the white pine? I didn't see anything that was conclusive that they were.

Not being a soils geologist, I struggle with things that are second nature to those who work in that field, so studies like that are a challenge for me to interpret. But it was a great way to get the juices I the brain flowing this morning!! Thanks!

[whiterock]

If you have pine in Texas you are in acidic soil, most of the Eastern 3rd of Texas is acid, the rest is alkaline. It can change across a fence row, creek or ridge. The areas between Say, Dallas and Houston east ,roughly,are acid Pockets of either in North central.