Soil sample

[Jhn56]

Howdy y'all, as you can tell from my post count, I'm new here. Nice site! Seems very friendly and well managed!

I recently bought my property (3 yrs), I've been gardening approx. 1/4 acre since settling in. Originally, the garden plot " dirt" was a orange clay/course sand (aggregate like) mix. Even weeds had a hard time growing in it.

I started transforming the garden, by first bringing in triaxle loads of topsoil and bottom plowed to a depth of about 12". Goal was to initially change the texture of the dirt to something more "soil" like.

After drastically changing the texture, I've been adding leaves. Each fall, a town just north of me, delivers me 40CY containers at no charge. I've been grinding them with my GT, all across the top, them tilling them under. After tilling under 4-6", I repeat and cap the garden with another 4-6" of ground up leaves to winter over.

In the spring, (march/early april) I till those under. My last frost date here is
mid May. Prior to planting, I again cover the entire garden with ground leaves to serve as a mulch for weeds/moisture for the growing season, the cycle continues in the fall.

I just started gardening when I bought the new place, and have been pretty successful, but I'm sure there's room for improvement. Once I am sure everything is good, I plan to completely STOP tilling. I'm sure the conditions are suitable, but have absolutely no worms throughout the garden. Time to let nature take over, build up the soil web of microorganisms etc... And stop murdering the worms!

Anyway, any advice in obtaining a good sample to send off would be really
appreciated! I plan to send it off to a college (I think) for the test. My last attempt to test the soil was 2 years ago, I took some dirt to the county ag. Extension. The same woman who was doing computer work at the front desk, tested it there and then using the PH test type kit only. Of course I waited until spring planting time, so sending it off at the time really would have been too little too late, since they explained it would probably take 3 weeks for the results. Sending it off now, will allow time early spring to make the corrective changes before planting time.

Thanks

[geo in mi]

Welcome! Go up to the "fireside" sticky above and look at post #12 on soil sampling. You might find some of the information you are looking for.

geo

[Paquebot]

If you've been amending primarily with a lot of leaves, you're probably not lacking in anything. Phosphorus would be your lowest of the NPK trio but still be plenty according to the amount that you've tilled in. A test should show high in nitrogen and potash with the phosphorus being adequate.

Martin

[Jhn56]

Thanks! Nice stcky full of info! Appreciate the feedback guys.

So from what I was able to gather from one of those sites, was to collect samples from at least a dozen different areas in the garden, to a depth of 6-8". Mix it all together and I have my sample. Sounds good to me, anything else I may have overlooked ? Any other suggestions from experience, would be appreciated

[Callieslamb]

when you send/take the sample, tell them you are using the soil in a general vegetable garden - so they will know it isn't a crop sample. Do you want more than the NPK and pH tested? You need to tell them that also.

[Ky-Jeeper]

Are you making use of some sort of cover crop ?

[Jhn56]

Originally Posted by Ky-Jeeper

Are you making use of some sort of cover crop ?

No, I haven't. I now realize this is something I probably should have been doing though. Problem now, I am trying to get away from tilling altogether until the worms come to the new soil. I have a hydraulic tiller mounted to my GT, it runs so good through the soil to about 6-7 inches, doubt any would survive?

[Paquebot]

Don't worry about the worms. The ones which you most likely see in your tilled ground are endogeic type. They feed on organic matter primarily within the soil. When you till anything in, you are feeding them. Even if you could possibly kill them all, there'd be plenty of cocoons waiting to repopulate the area.

Martin

[Jhn56]

Martin, As hard as it is to believe, I have NO worms. While amending and building the soil, I tilled, tilled and tilled some more, trying to incorporate as much OM into the dirt as I could. While my soil has a nice dark color, good texture and a high OM content, I have yet to see a worm! I've laid cardboard down in different areas of the garden and thought for sure, they would be present after a few days, but nothing. While digging, and searching, nothing.

That's the primary reason I decided to completely stop tilling (until I can build a good worm population throughout the garden) for at least a few years. I believe it's just a matter of time before they show up and start multiplying "IF" I stop tilling.

All the frequent tilling actually destroyed the soil food web (at least that's the way I see it, having done quite a bit of research into this). I'm kinda stumped here, because logic would say all those leaves at the very least would most likely contain many thousands of cocoons that would/should be present now as worms?

[Paquebot]

If you've never had worms, it simply means that they haven't been planted there yet. For example, there were no worms in the entire states of Minnesota and Wisconsin until European settlement. Same for much of Illinois and Michigan and the New England states. Then the few native types in some other states were pretty much eradicated by the invasion of the European types. Where they establish themselves in the northwoods of MI, MN, and WI, they are capable of destroying thousands of years of accumulated forest duff in a single year. In a previous worm discussion, one member found it incredulous that all of those great prairie soils could be made without worms but it was!

When I began gardening here, I was told that there were no worms of any type in my immediate area and not a single nightcrawler anywhere in the town. I changed that about 5 weeks later when I turned a big gob of nightcrawlers loose. That was in 1963. Later, a small endogeic type came in from somewhere. They are only about 1½" long and not at all common in my home gardens. Where my main garden is, it's the same small species. They are so small and sparse that their benefits are very minor compared to normal soil bacteria.

Martin

[geo in mi]

I don't think your efforts are destroying the soil food web; from your original description, you had no food web to begin with. I think I would get a complete soil test, with pH now, then make a plan for the future. Your efforts have built a web of sorts, but in addition to having no worms, you also had few other soil organisms like bacteria, microbes, centipedes, sow bugs, etc. to convert your materials into nutrients. You now have tilth(workable soil), but the high carbon content of your leaves takes a lot longer than green manures and higher nitrogen containing materials. Apparently the topsoil you imported had very little food life in it, too.

As for phosphorus and potassium, usually the high clay content will "lock" them up until you get organic materials mixed in--especially if your soil is/was acidic(low pH). I think you will see good changes in the future, but it may come slower than you want it to.

You don't mention your area or climate, so, regarding worms, I would just say the lack of food for them existed for quite some time--thus, they may have vanished--or they were never there and you may want to import some to get them started. Think about it, worms are very slow migrators, so it could take them a number of years to travel--and if the outlying soil has/had no food--why would they?

I don't think it is time yet to stop tilling. In fact, you should make a plan to grow some legumes for nitrogen, and maybe oats or yellow sweet clover to penetrate the clay beneath. Their roots decaying will accomplish the same function as the worms--leaving open tunnel systems and opening up the earth.....

Patience wins.....

geo

[Jhn56]

Thanks again guys, both replys are very good useful information! I guess I need to change my plan "again". I live in southern NJ, zone 7a. Aside from planting green manures (which I will now plan on in the fall next year), would the addition of cow manure do much to help the situation?

I don't mind admitting, I am pretty obsessed with the whole soil food web issue. Martin, your reply about it was right on! With winter around the corner, I don't think much can be done until spring other than cow manure or adding coffee grounds? (thinking out loud)

As far as worms are concerned, would it be advisable to just start finding worms elsewhere on my property? I live on 5 acres, 3 are wooded, and there are quite a few at the woods edges and driveway thru the woods. My chickens do quite the number on them while free ranging the property. In fact, if I have to wait for them to cross into garden territory, across the exact same red dirt I started out with, it may never happen.

Perhaps if I found the right variety of worm to inoculate the garden? I did try this in the past, at the beginning of the whole soil transformation process, but used worms I found while scooping up manure. Those worms were so lively, they acted and wiggled around more like a snake trying to get free, than any worm I've ever seen. At the time the garden was much smaller (30x50) and I collected at least a few gallons and set them free in the leaf mulch. No sign of them these days though. I just chalked it up to over tilling that fall.

I really appreciate all replys and hope you guys keep checking back on this thread. Discussing the problem, and getting solid feedback, really does help put things in better perspective!

[geo in mi]

Wait until the robins come back. Then just watch them. That night, take your flashlight to the same area, cover it with a red piece of plastic, walk lightly, locate a few nightcrawlers, catch 'em quick(the red lens will keep them from sensing too much light and scurrying back down their holes), and there you go.......



geo

[Paquebot]

Those worms that you find in the manure are a third type, epigeic. They feed and live only at or near the surface and do not burrow into the soils. Their liveliness when disturbed is what gives them their common name of wiggler. They are the type which are used in vermiculture. Being non-burrowers, they have no defense against cold and will not survive in cold climates. However, they leave behind many cocoons which do survive to start over again. It's surprising when and where they may show up. I had a stash of 25 pickup loads of bagged shredded leaves a year ago. When I moved them to a new garden location this spring, there were wigglers at the bottom of the pile. That was the third year of using that area for leaf storage but the first time for those worms being there. The garden area there is 1½ acres. So far, the only worm to become established is a real small species and then very sparse. That's despite tons of compost, leaves, etc.

Martin

[Jhn56]

Great idea with the flashlight w/red lens cover! Too bad I have to wait till the spring. Martin, your reply about the leaves also gives me an idea, build my compost pile just off center inside the garden, where last season I didn't plant anything. Amazing I never thought of that myself! By releasing my catch at the edges of the compost pile, they will be able to make the choice to dive into it or the surrounding soil.

Judging by the type of worms found in manure, sounds as if they wouldn't stand much of a chance (even the cocoons) if tilled in?

Leaves, I have an overabundance of! I had the town just north of me drop off fifteen, 40CY container loads at the rear corner of my property. With the budget cuts, all of the surrounding towns are more than happy to deliver them free of charge to avoid dumping fees. A win-win!

These leaves will just sit though, I have access to a skid steer (BIL), but only plan to go borrow it maybe once a month. Too bad he's not closer, I would turn the three long piles weekly. The driver, knowing what my intentions were, loaded the leaves from piles of "just" leaves, and capped each load with about a foot of finely ground wood chips and green leaves from another pile to keep the leaves from blowing out.

[manygoatsnmore]

You sound like one of ForeRunner's extreme composters - check out the thread stickied at the top of the first page of the Homesteading Questions forum (first forum on the site). Welcome to the site!

[Paquebot]

I suspect that the leaves are coming from curbside pick up. Depending upon how they are picked up, they may or may not be deficient in nitrogen for proper composting. If vacuumed up from piles, they'd be almost pure leaves. If from bagged leaves, chances are good that there's a lot of grass and other plants in it. Many common leaves are around 60:1 carbon to nitrogen ratio and break down very slow. That's especially so if the leaves are whole. If the leaves are broken up such as with a bagging mower, and if some grass was picked up in the process, that quickly spreads to the rest of the pile.

My main garden is just over 6,000 square feet and was laid out in 12 sections. Each got a pickup load of bagged shredded leaves and started over again for another 5 or 6. They will remain in their bags until spring when they will be spread just prior to plowing. Between spreading and plowing, I've also got 180# of 5-2-0 Milorganite to broadcast atop the leaves. That will assure that there will not be a temporary loss of nitrogen availability when the leaves begin to break down.

Martin

[Jhn56]

Originally Posted by manygoatsnmore

You sound like one of ForeRunner's extreme composters - check out the thread stickied at the top of the first page of the Homesteading Questions forum (first forum on the site). Welcome to the site!

Thanks, glad to find this site. After your steer, I read the first 3 pages of that thread, awesome! I'll definitely go back and finish as time permits.

Martin, thanks for the explanation, sounds like a great plan.