Leasing Solar Photovoltaic System

Virgil · #1 08/15/12, 05:20 PM

General question concerning those internet pop-up advertisements saying that a home owner can lease a complete solar photovoltaic system for next to nothing... So what is the pros and cons to these deals???... Does anyone have any real life experience with the ins and outs with these types of contracts???... Sounds to good to be true.... And who is responsible to fix the the leaky holes in the roof that may develop later...etc....etc..??? Any comments ???

TnAndy · #2 08/15/12, 09:04 PM

I'll start off saying I know nothing about leasing on solar, but if it's anything like leasing a car, the average person simply gets beat like a drum in those deals. Unless you lease a car for business use, and can deduct the cost of the least as a business expense, they make absolutely no sense unless you simply love the smell of a new car and are willing to pay thru the nose for it.

Any time you lease, it injects another party in the deal.....and they have to make a profit.....so I don't see HOW that can work out well for any non-business related activity. Business can justify leasing by deduction of the lease cost, and by the increased productivity and profit having new machinery can generate. An individual simply doesn't have that incentive.

If I were talking to a company about leasing ANYTHING, I'd run the numbers against simply doing it myself ( even with a bank loan ) and see it works out. As you point out, in the case of solar, you also have maintenance issues ( not only leaks, but what happens when you need a new roof ? ), insurance issues ( do they replace if storm damaged ? ), and so on.....

Jim-mi · #3 08/15/12, 09:15 PM

I have yet to figure out how Joe home owner makes out in these lease deals.
I understand that there is a lot of "fine print" in the contract.
There has been an explosion of "peoples" claiming to be installers . . . . . .pray tell who will fix your leaky roof 10 years down the road . .??
The guy who installed it has moved on to something else, because he didn't make enough money..........

I have been in the Wind PV business for 15 years.

In my 'snow belt' area i do not put PV on a roof . . . . .how many weeks do you want to wait untill the snow melts off the PV panels . .??????
Can you get up on the roof to clean off the panels during the winter...???

The leasing Co. will generously let you buy the system in ten years or so.
Until such time you can bet your boots that the profit margin is all in their corner.....

One advantage of a lease ; you can thump your chest and proclaim to be 'Green"

Virgil · #4 08/16/12, 05:37 PM

Yes, I agree with the comments above... It seems like I have saw a lot of solar gimmicks come and go since the 70's,,, There still are a couple of those dead relics up on the roofs of houses in the area that I live.. However, Photovoltaic panels with UL listings getting down to a dollar per watt or less... Now, that is a good trend.. If, the quality holds up...

Bluesgal · #5 08/22/12, 10:49 AM

Here's my biggest problem with the solar leases...

At least here by me (AZ) when leasing, if you are also connected to the grid, the system must be connected with a shut off if power from the grid goes down so that your system does not backfeed the grid and posssibly harm someone. Now there are ways to connect it so that you can bypass this, not backfeed the grid and still have power... EXCEPT the solar lease companies won't let you set it up that way.

Therefore, if you lease and are also tied to the grid... when the grid goes down you have a roof full of pretty panels that will do NOTHING for you and you'll have no power.

Also I've seen the leasing companies spec out systems that were larger than needed to incrase their profit.

Therefore, in order to set up what will work for your individual, specific needs, set it up yourself and use an electrician.

just my 2 cents.

Jim-mi · #6 08/22/12, 11:38 AM

Yes Bluesgal it is a Federal rule/regulation that requires the inverters in a grid tied system to instantly shut down when the grid goes down.
And they (the inverters) will NOT start up again until they can sample the grid.

Yes you can "bypass" this . . . . .But it requires additional $$$$$ components to do so....

Also in your post ****use an electrician**** . . . . .very good advice......

Providing the electrician knows something about PV.............

TnAndy · #7 08/22/12, 12:01 PM

As Jim says, it not just Arizona.....everywhere in the USA that is a requirement for any grid tied system...... grid tie inverters must meet UL 1741 standards, which take them off line if no grid power is on the grid side.

The solution is a grid tied system with battery backup. The system operates as a grid tie while the grid is up......once the batteries are topped off, the remainder flows to the grid.

If the grid goes down, these inverters disconnect, ( meeting UL1741 ) but this type of inverter has an additional set of contacts that close when the grid is down, and allow the PV/battery to feed where ever you want.....generally to a transfer switch if using for a home that is normally grid tied. This 'transfers' the house ( or designated circuits ) over to JUST your PV system.....making it an 'off grid' system essentially.

This system, a combination of grid and off grid systems, is one most folks will not install one because if they have grid power, it's generally pretty reliable, and thus they won't spend the extra money on this type of "hybrid" system......which can cost up to 30-50% more, and is less efficient, due to the batteries/charge controllers/etc in the system.....when it IS grid tied, you don't produce the amount of power back to the grid a "pure" grid tie system does.

It's simply a money thing why most aren't set up this way. ( Mine IS by the way ). The reason solar lease companies don't want to do it, again, is MONEY, the lack of demand for these systems ( and since they don't install them, they know little about them ), and future maintenance. With a grid tie only system, you basically plug and play.....not much to do in the way of maintenance unless you have a component like an inverter die.

With battery based systems, you have more components ( like charge controllers ) that can die, and you have batteries to keep up, and replace. No way a leasing company is gonna get into that mess.

irregardless · #8 08/22/12, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TnAndy

With battery based systems, you have more components ( like charge controllers ) that can die, and you have batteries to keep up, and replace. No way a leasing company is gonna get into that mess.

How long do the batteries generally last?

Jim-mi · #9 08/22/12, 09:30 PM

That is a huge loaded question............
The quick answer;
. . .1 . . .what quality of the batts in the system....
. . . . . . .cheap . . .good . . .better . . .best . . .premium . . . .

... .2 . .how YOU treat them
. . . . . . .under charged . . .over discharge . . .

irregardless · #10 08/23/12, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim-mi

That is a huge loaded question............
The quick answer;
. . .1 . . .what quality of the batts in the system....
. . . . . . .cheap . . .good . . .better . . .best . . .premium . . . .

... .2 . .how YOU treat them
. . . . . . .under charged . . .over discharge . . .

I'm a "do it once, do it right" kind of guy. I'd have a quality system and would use it properly.

TnAndy · #11 08/23/12, 07:00 AM

The question of 'how long will they last' is directly related to 'how do you plan to use them'.

ALL batteries have a certain life....the number of times you can add and subtract power from them (cycle), and the depth of discharge (DOD)....that is, how much power you draw from them in a given cycle. Battery manufacturers test their batteries, and the higher end batteries they will publish it. Charts that show #cycles/DOD. One general rule of thumb is: The deeper the DOD, the less number of times you can do it.

For example, on some brand battery: 20% DOD, you might get 1500 cycles. 50% DOD, you might get 750. 80% DOD, maybe 300. Most PV systems are designed by matching YOUR loads to YOUR expected sunshine so the system doesn't exceed 50% DOD 'most of the time'. And yeah, it's a big guess.

"Generally" speaking, the lower cost wet cell lead acid batteries ( like Sam's Club golf cart batteries ) are designed to last about 3-5 years. Can you get more out of them ?

Sure....by using them lightly ( which you typically WOULD in a grid tied, battery backup system, where you might only use them couple times a year, tops ), AND religiously maintaining water level, you might get 10 years. BUT, you could also destroy them in 3- 6 months with heavy ( 80-90% DOD ) use and never pop a cap to water them.

You can step up in price and buy Deka L-16's...a heavier plate battery, that is about twice the height of a 'normal' battery, designed for heavier daily use in things like electric floor scrubbers. ( and now, by slapping a "solar" label on them, in solar power systems )......typical life on them is 5-8 years.......again, light use/good maintenance can extend that considerably.

Top of the line, and price, would be really heavy duty wet cells like Rolls Surette. Designed to last 10-15 years in typical service.

Then you can branch off from the "typical" wet cell, lead acid battery into more exotic batteries, like sealed AGM ( absorbed glass mat ) batteries, used extensively in the telecom industry as backup power. The best of these are designed to last 20 years or more in backup service. REALLY heavy duty honkers.....250lbs per 2v cell....and REALLY expensive.....a 24v pack can run $15,000 or more.

Or you can look into Tom Edison's creation. (Google the Edison Battery) Wet cells batteries that use iron/nickel instead of lead, and use a calcium based solution instead of acid. They claim 20-30 years life, and easy to renew the solution at the end, and the plates don't "sulphate up" like typical lead acid batteries do. Pricey....only imported from China ( yeah...how's THAT for ironic )until recently ( manufacturer in Montana now, I hear ), but might well be the best battery choice going in the future.

SO, as Jim says.....a loaded question.....with a LOT of potential answers.

Jim-mi · #12 08/23/12, 09:44 AM

There is a whole lot to say for the Edison's.
And, forgetting the Edison big price, the high and low voltages of the Edison bats are a bit of a problem. When a good charge has been applied the voltage will be above tolerance of a good inverter and it will shut down.
Probably the el cheapo inverters will just turn into a puff of smoke.
In a quality system this high voltage thing can be addressed.

Also a quality system shall have very good monitoring hardware to keep tract of the battery status. If the owner pays attention the battery will last a good while.

Unfortunately the mind set of oh so many people is . . "Use the flashlight until the batterys die"...........

irregardless · #13 08/23/12, 04:14 PM

Thank you very much for the information. I already have my backup power nailed down (a 12kv naturgal gas gen and a 14kv one, both fed by a natural gas well) so the way I see it there should never be a reason that the system should be drained down too much before a generator could kick on to help out.

I've mainly been looking into a off-grid capable grid tied system... So when things were well and good I get my night time energy from the grid... but when the sun is out and its 110 degrees outside I can run the AC at full blast and not have to worry about a $1,000 electric bill. (I am exagerating) During the stormy season it is not uncommon for us to be without power for 2-5 days at a time, and seeing as how we are a multigeneration home we have TONS of food stored in freezers and refrigerators. (most ARE fairly energy efficient, but probably not 'solar approved')

I was hoping to have a good sized system that could do what i described installed for somewhere in the $20-30k range, am I too far off to even be considering that?

TnAndy · #14 08/23/12, 05:26 PM

Is the natural gas free ? ( you said a well ). If so, you have a dream situation.... heck, my main thrust would be running gensets off that ! Dang if I'd put in much PV. I'd have a decent battery bank to buffer my light loads ( like the middle of the night ), and go from there.

But to answer your question, yes, you can put in a pretty good PV system for 20-30k. I have a 6kw system, battery backup, for about 30 grand ( which is 20 after tax credits ), and much of that was bought when panels were 4 bucks/watt, where they are now 1 buck/watt.

irregardless · #15 08/23/12, 05:55 PM

Yes, 100% free... but I don't want to rely on it solely and then it 'dry up' 10 years down the road and then I'm stuck paying tons of money to get it piped in or convert to electric.

Thats not likely to happen, it's been at 95+ psi since it was re-drilled back in 98.

GregYohn · #16 02/06/13, 02:03 PM

Here's the low down on leasing solar panels.

The company wants a person with good credit, so they get paid each month.

They get the tax credits and carbon credits. You basically are locked into low cost electric power. At the end of the lease, you can buy them.

They go into the grid without batteries, and but you could get a battery bank as backup but not with the lease price.

New homeowners can continue the lease or the company removes them.

Tries my hand at the idea with a National solar energy leasing company.

The idea is good for noncash people or those without the time to handle things themselves.

Jim-mi · #17 02/07/13, 08:54 AM

. . "Battery bank as backup " . . .

You will learn the very hard way as to how costly that can be.......

An appropriate additional inverter (to make the system work) is very costly for any one, and so too the "Non cash people" . . .