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#1
08/25/10, 02:04 PM
 Interrobanger Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Northwoods of Minnesota, formerly of Texas Posts: 17,903

help me understand this.

Since I am entertaining all possibilities in regards to obtaining a travel wheel -

What do I need to consider when it comes to ratios?

My wheel has only one whorl size, one bobbin size and we estimate its ratio to be 11:1.

While I understand what that means, I don't really understand what that means TO ME or to my spinning.

Currently I am able to spin "fine" enough for my liking quite easily.

I'm just not sure what kind of versatility I should be going for here and how ratios pertain to that.

Any suggestions?

here are some ratios for a wheel I am considering - what does any of this mean to me and how does a low ratio affect my yarns outcome?

Spinning ratios are 6:1, 8:1, 10:1 on low speed whorl
Spinning ratios are 12:1, 14:1, 16:1 on high speed whorl
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She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. Proverbs 31:13
#2
08/25/10, 02:31 PM
 NRA LifeMember since 1976 Join Date: May 2002 Location: Between Crosslake and Emily Minnesota Posts: 13,423

I assume that for each push on Patience’s treadle, the wheel makes one complete revolution. In that one revolution, your bobbin...or is it the Mother of All?...spins 11 revolutions. Now, stick with me here, it’s gonna get a bit complicated.....

If you’re listening to Dean Martin singing “Dat’s Amore”, your foot is tapping at a rate of about once per second. Consequently, the bobbins speed is 11 revolutions per second or 660 revolutions per minute (ie, 660 rpm).

Now, let’s say you buy a travel wheel that can do a 6:1 ratio. In this mode, each tap of your foot on the treadle will spin the bobbin only 6 times. When listening to “Dat’s Amore”, you’ll be spinning at 360 rpms....a much slower speed.

On the other hand, if the traveler has a 16:1 warp-speed quantum turbo gear, your bobbin will be smokin’ at almost 1000 rpm when listening to Dino! DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT listen to the Chicken Dance song while in this gear!

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#3
08/25/10, 02:59 PM
 Glowing in The Sun Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Now near Ames, 6 yrs in NE Iowa, moved from NorCal in 2008. Posts: 1,333

WIHH,

A slower speed will allow you to put less twist per treadle and give you more time to manipulate the fiber in your drafting zone. If you want to do a boucle yarn, for instance, you will need extra time to make the plies do what they need to do before being sucked into the flyer and bobbin.

A fatter yarn also has to be spun slower or you will get too much extra twist put into it. Twist accumulates where the yarn is thinner, fatter yarns take less twist to hold together.

A higher ratio allows you to spin yarn more economically as far as time and energy, but you also have to have fiber that is better prepared to be able to draft so fast.

Silk and cotton, which are usually spun into fine yarns are usually spun on very fast wheels because the fiber is so fine and slippery, it takes much more twist to create the friction that makes fibers hold together into a yarn.

Also, wheels meant for fine yarn often have smaller orifices, and a fat yarn won't go thru them, or will get caught on the smaller hooks on the flier. For lumpy art yarns you need a larger orifice too, and who says you won't ever want to make an art yarn? Or a fat single ply like a Lopi?

If you ever notice in Spin Off articles with yarn specs, many authors spin singles at one speed, and ply at a faster speed, which is fine when you're not drafting.

Also going slower while learning is a lot easier to do, you can keep up with your fiber and wheel until you get the hang of the movements.

So that's why you want versatility, because someday you will be bored with just fine yarns! You will want to stretch and try new things, and with a good wheel you will be happier a longer time!

__________________

"Success is preparation and opportunity meeting." - Andrea Smith, music director for XM 82, 2008.

Old Turkomen proverb: "When we have rice to eat, life is good." From: "The World Is A Carpet"

#4
08/25/10, 03:16 PM
 Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: MO Posts: 10,245

Every spinner has their own favored/comfortable treadling speed. In order to keep that even 'cadence' (as the Kromski guy calls it) it is nice to have an adjustable wheel. One that will go faster or slower w/o you having to treadle faster or slower.

I am finding that to get a VERY fine single on my wheel, I need to treadle super fast and draft slower. That is not BAD, but it can be tiring.

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#5
08/25/10, 04:00 PM
 Interrobanger Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Northwoods of Minnesota, formerly of Texas Posts: 17,903

so- since I already have 11:1 ratio and can spin "fine"- I need slower one? To spin fat?

__________________
She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. Proverbs 31:13
#6
08/25/10, 04:29 PM
 Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: MO Posts: 10,245
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Wind in Her Hair so- since I already have 11:1 ratio and can spin "fine"- I need slower one? To spin fat?
If you want to make those art yarns at all 'easily' you want like a 4:1, or so, plus the bigger orifice.

Unless you can treadle really-rilly slow...
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Cows may not be smarter than People, but some cows are smarter than some people.

#7
08/25/10, 07:33 PM
 Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: OKlahhoma Posts: 1,020
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Cabin Fever I assume that for each push on Patience’s treadle, the wheel makes one complete revolution. In that one revolution, your bobbin...or is it the Mother of All?...spins 11 revolutions. Now, stick with me here, it’s gonna get a bit complicated..... If you’re listening to Dean Martin singing “Dat’s Amore”, your foot is tapping at a rate of about once per second. Consequently, the bobbins speed is 11 revolutions per second or 660 revolutions per minute (ie, 660 rpm). Now, let’s say you buy a travel wheel that can do a 6:1 ratio. In this mode, each tap of your foot on the treadle will spin the bobbin only 6 times. When listening to “Dat’s Amore”, you’ll be spinning at 360 rpms....a much slower speed. On the other hand, if the traveler has a 16:1 warp-speed quantum turbo gear, your bobbin will be smokin’ at almost 1000 rpm when listening to Dino! DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT listen to the Chicken Dance song while in this gear!
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Wind in Her Hair so- since I already have 11:1 ratio and can spin "fine"- I need slower one? To spin fat?
Bless your sweet heart WIHH you live with one of them also!!!!

Honestly though I can not spin and listen to very much music my yarn does end up showing what I listen to.
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#8
08/26/10, 07:36 AM
 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: MN Posts: 6

Next time we get together you can play on my Louet. It has adjustable ratios. So you can spin the same fiber and I can adjust the ratios so you can 'feel' and see the difference. I won't be there tonight...wine tasting at the arboretum. Oh...and I get to work today..first time in 3 weeks..guess that's what giving your notice gets you....:-D

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#9
08/26/10, 08:45 AM
 Interrobanger Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Northwoods of Minnesota, formerly of Texas Posts: 17,903
Quote:
 Originally Posted by weezlton Next time we get together you can play on my Louet. It has adjustable ratios. So you can spin the same fiber and I can adjust the ratios so you can 'feel' and see the difference. I won't be there tonight...wine tasting at the arboretum. Oh...and I get to work today..first time in 3 weeks..guess that's what giving your notice gets you....:-D

WELCOME weezlton!

Everyone, meet Weezlton -one of my guild spinning/knitting buddies and compadres in yarns!!!

She's an accomplished knitter and a new spinner/dyer!

Sorry to miss you tonite, weezlton - since when does free wine trump spinning? Okay - don't answer that.

Remember to pre-hydrate, take your B vitamins, and have your Tylenol on hand.
__________________
She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. Proverbs 31:13
#10
08/26/10, 11:23 AM
 Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 278

I agree with CF, avoid the Chicken Dance. Also, smokin' hot bluegrass is dangerous while spinning, even on your slowest ratio.

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#11
08/26/10, 11:51 AM
 Real Milk Soap for Sale! Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: NW-IL Fiber Enabler Posts: 9,780

Welcome weezlton!

WIHH, with a single ratio, you can adjust your twist by treadling faster or slower. With multi ratios, you treadle at the same speed and choose a whorl size.

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Cyndi (and sometimes Paul)

Plan for 11th Annual Homesteading Weekend ~ June 2015

NW Ill-Annoy USA

#12
08/26/10, 01:38 PM
 Nubian dairy goat breeder Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: michigan Posts: 4,465

with me still wet beginning spinner, i think you can spin just any yarn at any given ratio. just need to adjust the speed how you treadle right?
well, and to make artsi yarn you need a big orifice.

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Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

#13
08/26/10, 01:39 PM
 Nubian dairy goat breeder Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: michigan Posts: 4,465
Quote:
 Originally Posted by MullersLaneFarm Welcome weezlton! WIHH, with a single ratio, you can adjust your twist by treadling faster or slower. With multi ratios, you treadle at the same speed and choose a whorl size.

__________________

Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

#14
08/27/10, 10:27 AM
 Sheep-Camelid Moderator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Now in Virginia Posts: 8,092

I spin slow no matter what kind of yarn I am making. I don't remember my Majarcraft Saxony's ratio's but allows me to spin easily at my speed.
I also use a Delta flyer.

You can do anything from fingerling to chunky yarns, to plying with this.

__________________
Shari

To see what I am up to, Check out..
Ink & Brush Creations Blog
Offering fine Art in Pen & Ink with Watercolor Pencil wash or Graphite.
#15
08/27/10, 08:21 PM
 Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: A woods in Wisconsin Posts: 9,278

Well, I have found this thread very informative and scary.

That ratio talk arouses my curiosity while giving me a better understanding of the goals of the spinner, and the work of the wheel.

But it also, scares me enough, to make me want to give up on pursuing any more info on the art of combining fiber into yarn..

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#16
08/27/10, 10:35 PM
 Glowing in The Sun Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Now near Ames, 6 yrs in NE Iowa, moved from NorCal in 2008. Posts: 1,333

Don't let a technical discussion scare you away from spinning. You need info and to learn about stuff so you can make informed decisions when purchasing a wheel or learning about making different kinds of yarns.

You can treadle your wheel slower only to a point and have enough momentum to keep it going. Then you need to step down to a slower ratio. I stand by my statement that you can't make certain yarns just by treadling slower on a fast wheel.

The yarns I've been doing lately, pictures of which I'm posting in a separate thread, cannot be done on a fast wheel, or one with a high ratio, you have got to be able to go slow to manipulate the fibers before the twist and friction take hold and make the fibers secure in place. Even while going slow you still have lots of hand movements to make.

My little Rappard wheel goes down to 4:1, and the Aura wheel I'm getting, made by Majacraft, goes down to 3:1. Aura is an advanced wheel that has been designed completely differently than any other wheel ever before, just for art yarns and fat yarns. Sometimes the Majacraft delta-style orifice will not work for these aand you have to have a large ring orifice to get the slubs and artsy components thru it, or use the new "artsy" orifice designed with Lexi Boeger.

You also have to have the tension/take-in turned up pretty high to help pull the slubs thru the orifice. It really helps to try different wheels and try spinning yarns that are outside of your comfort zone.

__________________

"Success is preparation and opportunity meeting." - Andrea Smith, music director for XM 82, 2008.

Old Turkomen proverb: "When we have rice to eat, life is good." From: "The World Is A Carpet"

#17
08/27/10, 10:40 PM
 Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: MO Posts: 10,245

<waits to see the art yarns on new thread>

Off to google up the new Majacraft Aura....

__________________

Cows may not be smarter than People, but some cows are smarter than some people.

#18
08/28/10, 12:14 AM
 Sheep-Camelid Moderator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Now in Virginia Posts: 8,092

Tallpines, no reason to be scared.

I have had my wheel so long and I know it so well... I have forgotten the ratio's it has. But I know where to move the band and tension to get the kind of yarn I want. Also have used the Delta Flyer for a long time. Can do anything I wish with it.
(my treadling speed stays slow and steady, as it is easiest on my body)
But I do know that people that I have had spin my wheel, mostly beginners, work better with a normal flyer.
You have to find out what works best for you.
Not as good at explaining how I get the yarn I want in words, could show you in person no problem though. VBG

Takes time to get the feel of your wheel. ;O) Just enjoy yourself, practice, play and learn.

It has taken me years to go to this point... but it has been a wonderful journey!

__________________
Shari

To see what I am up to, Check out..
Ink & Brush Creations Blog
Offering fine Art in Pen & Ink with Watercolor Pencil wash or Graphite.

Last edited by bergere; 08/28/10 at 12:26 AM.
#19
08/28/10, 06:42 AM
 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Ontario Posts: 1,714

I just realized why I don't like to listen to music while spinning. The change in tempo makes me treadle at different speeds and messes up the twist since I don't change my draw as readily. I guess I need one of those exercise recordings where everything is the same tempo.

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#20
08/28/10, 08:09 AM
 Interrobanger Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Northwoods of Minnesota, formerly of Texas Posts: 17,903

The Aura looks like it THE modern wheel to beat all modern wheels for modern artyarn spinning - it will likely reign supreme.

I understand it vibrates when you get down to spinning lace on it - so its versatility on THAT side of spinning may be somewhat limited.

It is designed to shine when it spins SLOW.

I noticed when I spun on the little 19" Pocketwheel that I was treadling to beat the band - and getting nowhere - it was NOT enjoyable spinning. And the bobbin is situated so that you cannot see it. thats one thing I love about those cuckoo leaning Lendrums - you can always see you bobbin and how its filling.

I realize it will be a big change to go from my efficient 24" wheel and its easy rhythmic heartbeat treadling to one of these travel wheels. In the meantime, Cabin Fever is modifying a wheeled cart for me to transport my Patience from the parking lot to wherever I am taking her at my next three-day fiber event in South Dakota in a few weeks.

tallpines - all this mathematical talk is over my head - and thats why I was confused - all it comes down to is determing what wheel will do what you want it to. They all spin fiber - some are just more technologically advanced, versatile and fancy than others.

My girl, which spins lovely fiber - is somewhat limited in her versatilty - she was designed to spin fine singles that can then be plied to become fine and laceweight yarns - all the way to thicker, heavier, bulkier yarns - but only to a point.

If I want truly "artyarns" - the crazy wild weird and wonderful trend of spinning "modern" fashion yarns - I will have to go to a larger orifice - a Delta orifice, an open orifice or that little pigtail corkscrew like on the Aura - and those ratios allow the bulky stuff to be pulled on the bobbin with ease whereas I would have to practically stomp on my treadle to get them to wind on my gentle sweet Patience. So I will allow her to do what she does best - and to add a portable, "friend" wheel that can do the other end of spinning for me.

A word about spinning - it does takes an adventurous courageous pioneering spirit.

Its not for everyone - but for those who are not easily discouraged - its a challenge and such sweet music when its all working in harmony.

If you want to badly enough - nothing will dissuade you - and for me - its proving to be a wonderful journey!

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She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. Proverbs 31:13

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