Observations of a Reactionary Nature
 

House cows were not fed expensive dairy feed just a few generations ago; why is it so important now?

House cows can exist, do well, and produce milk on just good grass and hay; at what point of production does graining the house cow become economically profitable for the small holder producing milk for their family?

If, for instance, a house cow averaged 5 gallons a-day milk over a 305 day period with the addition of expensive dairy feed, but the same house cow could produce an average of 2 ½ gallons a-day over 180 day period fed only grass and hay, would it not be advantageous to the small holder to kept a second cow bred to freshen as the first cows’ milk failed? Considering 5 gallons of milk per day far more than most families can use, the hay for the second cow would cost less than the dairy feed for the first, and there would be an additional calf to sell yearly.


As it is, here at Wolf Cairn Moor, the milk we sell from one cow more than pays for the grain needed for six head of cattle, so our costs are not out of pocket, but one never knows what the future will bring, and not everyone out there is in our fortunate situation. Besides the subject seems a good opinion generator.

I think a good deal of it has to do with genetics. It depends on what type of cow you have for a house cow. Some cows have been bred to depend more on grain than pasture to produce in the end.
If your cow can stay healthy on pasture and no grain, then I don't see why it would be a big deal.
I think it also has to do with how much feed and variety you have available to an animal. If you have only a small piece of land you can help supplement with grain and keep a good conditioned animal on a smaller piece of land.

The only thing I can come close to comparing it to would be our goats. Until this year they were left to raise their kids and we sold the wethers at the end of the year. They only produced enough for their kids and only until their kids were weaned. This year I am milking about three to five of them (waiting for the other two to kid to decide how many I will be milking this year). We have always offered some grain to them right before breeding, during their pregnancies and when they are nursing, along with good hay and browse. With me milking some they are getting a much larger amount of grain because I am asking them to produce more.
They could live on just browse and hay alone, but the grain helps to keep them friendly and trains them to return to their pen when I call them. It has also improved their over conditioning. They tend to do better when tehy have a little bit of grain to eat.

But what do I know? :confused:

I do believe it is the old game of supply and demand....and the large dairy farms want to milk them for all they are worth so they can justify all the heavy equipment they own.
I have a goat that will produce over 1 gallon of milk a day on hay and forage when her babies are on her (the first few days I wean/milk her this is how much I get while milking her over grain) then she slackens right off to 1/2 gal on the grain...because she hates being milked I swear! She is a witchy woman!
I'd love to have a milk cow someday and I would have to adjust the supply and demand thing. Not wanting to sell much milk...

Cows will use the nutrients available for the following purposes, in the following order. Maintenance, Growth, Lactation, Reproduction.

If their nutritional needs aren't being met, the first thing to suffer is reproduction...harder time breeding back and/or problems with the fetus. If their needs still aren't being met, then lactation will suffer.

So what's a suffering lactation? If the cow can be pushed to 5 pounds a day, but is only making 2, is that an indication that the nutritional needs are being compromised to the point that reproduction will become a problem? I have no idea, but it's something to consider.

Jena

Some people believe that a cow was never meant to eat grain. If you are around big dairies where they are fed mass amounts of grain, you'll more than likely find a lot of laminitis and the need for trimming hooves. IMO the more you push a cow to produce, the quicker she gets burned out. Check around and see how long cows last in the milking line on big farms. Not very long. We use have cows 10-12 years old milking now they are lucky to be around for 4 lactations. Check out the manure of a grain fed cow and see how much of that grain passes through her system. If your hay is high enough in protein, you don't need grain. The farmers who graze their cattle are producing milk and their cows are living longer too. I admit that I grain my cows but only when it's bitterly cold or when they are uddering up before freshening. And then it's only 3-4 lbs. a day after they've eaten dry hay. A lot of DA's happen from too much grain and not enough hay.

Dan

I have been milking "house cows" for many years on grass and hay only. No real problems with reproduction. No mastitis. The problem is the production expectations that come from grain feeding as a norm. During the growing season, on well managed rotationally grazed pasture, numbers are good. A cow lactating all winter on hay only can't come close to those numbers. To me, a cow giving a gallon to a gallon and a half of milk a day (1x milking, in winter), while producing a good calf every year is doing her job. Most people won't accept a number that low.

I took a class on dairy science many years ago.

According to the instructor, SOME of the better-bred cows would continue putting out large quantities of milk even if they were loosing too much weight. They would CONTINUE to produce too much milk until they were thin enough to risk getting sick. The owner could only pour the feed on in an attempt to keep the cow healthy: the amount of milk produced would stay pretty much the same until the cow got very much too thin.

With THOSE cattle, they would only stay healthy if they were given the best of feed. And, traditional commercial dairies pretty much only feed very high-quality feed.

He also said that commercial dairies did well with these cattle but that a family milk cow should not be one of those high-powered cows. A family milk cow ought to be a cow that can prosper on home-raised feed and be physically very sound.

Mind, I am only repeating what the teacher said, but it seems logical to me.

Haggis,
I think your idea is very correct with regards to a homestead/house cow. The problem as Roseanna and others indicated is genetics. I think the vast majority of people who end up with their own "house cow" end up with a Jersey. Most of these jerseys probably are retired dairy cows or the daughters of retired commercial dairy cows. So they have a preponderance of commercial dairy type genetics. In a Jersey to my amatuers view this seems to predispose them to being very thin angular delicate animals that milk like crazy. A lot of them need grain to stay healthy and keep from milking all the flesh off of them. They also seem to have a very strong susceptibility to milk fever.
It would be wonderful if as homesteaders we could have access to a "breed" that was lower production, lower maintenance, had good grazing type genetics, would raise her own calf and still let down for a milker, etc. I don't think all of these traits exist in one breed, I'm still interested in jersey/beef crossbreds as possible solution. Maybe as grass based dairying becomes more prevalent a source of grazing cattle genetics will be more available to us as homesteaders.

Haggis, A family cow kept for table milk vs. dairying for profit are two completely distinct operations. Most people keeping a cow for milk aren't concerned with the economic profitability of keeping her. If profits aren't a concern, there is no reason to optimize the ration.

With that said, much of the existing evidence shows that (at least at current prices), feeding grain and concentrate is profitable, in that the increased production more than offsets the higher input costs of feeding grain. I read recently that Purdue did some studies that found that feeding grain resulted in production increases as high as 40%+. Look at the prices of corn and soybean meal for the relative feed value. It's also a bit of a myth to assume that dairymen did not used to feed grain and concentrate (it was usually tankage back then)

The all-forage diets do not result in enough dry matter intake to realize higher production levels, and the protein in forages has a relatively low bypass value (it's mostly digested in the rumen), so you don't get any pass-through. Feeding grain in a well-balanced ration allows cows to ramp up milk production more rapidly in early lactation and also to achieve better persistency throughout the lactation.

The problems with laminitis and DAs are not caused by feeding grain in and of itself but by feeding a ration that is not properly balanced. A ration with too much grain (unstructured carbs) and not enough neutral detergent fiber will result in rumen acidosis, which can cause laminitis, mastitis, reproductive difficulties and lower longevity.

Genetics are the single largest factor in determining both production and longevity. The straw man in these arguments is always the large parlor operations, which do have much higher cull rates, which is due more to environment and management than feeding grain. There are a large number of dairy herds that are not these huge parlor operations, especially in the Upper Midwest. I currently have 12 of my 48 cows over the age of 12, and 11 of these 12 have given over 300,000 lbs of milk lifetime. Breeding for traits such as depth of heel and proper set to hind legs, use of exercise lots and feeding well-balanced rations (including dry-cow rations) are all important to longevity.

Some breeds have been developed over time for grazing, such as Milking Shorthorns, Normandes, Norwegian Reds, Dutch Belts and even Guernseys. I would suppose people would make these arguments for Devons and Dexters as well.

I would be reluctant to dismiss the Jersey as a good family cow, however. Jerseys are more efficient in converting feed to milk than are the other traditional dairy breeds, have high butterfat, and are actually quite hardy. They are more susceptible to milk fever, but you can manage their dry cow ration to avoid this. A dairy animal will be angular and will work hard to produce milk. An over-conditioned animal will have many more health problems at calving and afterward.

Lots of Jerseys will "milk off their back" if pushed for maximum production without a good amount of grain in their diet. They can be managed without grain and not lose weight if they aren't pushed so hard. Even "well-bred" cows milk production is a supply/demand thing. Don't take all the milk and they will slow down. It does take a little while longer after freshening with really dairy type animals to slow them down, but it can always be done.

I know absolutley nothing about the genetics of US dairy cows, so I could be totally wrong, but I feel that the claim that cows over there cannot survive without grain is wrong. I think it is more a case of 'they cannot produce as much milk as we demand without a grain supplement. ' Here, we keep our cows on grass all year round, supplementing with hay & silage when the grass stops growing, and I have never met a poor dairy farmer.


"How can a red cow eat green grass and give white milk?" :D --- a song title.

It really does depend on the genetics. I don't think anyone is claiming they can't survive, it is more they won't be nearly as healthy producing what their bodies ask them to produce without supplementation. They have been bred to produce more, more and more.

Our cows are pastured as long as we can and in the winter they get hay and grain. They are also supplemented with some grain when out on pasture but a different feed than they get in the winter.

Many of the bulls genetics from over there are being sought by farmers here who are pasture based, because of the genetics that make them do better with pasture rather than relying on grain for their main source. Those farmers are also seeing improvements in their outputs as well.

I'm sure our girls could survive without grain but they aren't going to produce nearly as much and they certainly would not be happy with us taking away their grain. :haha:

As I was reading all of these great comments something our friend from the Land of the Long White Cloud said rang a bell. The fellow who sold me my two Jersey milk cows and my young Jersey heifer told me in passing that he had been using semen from New Zealand Jersey bulls for many years.

The best I can tell, without prying, is that he makes his living milking about 12 Jersey cows and selling the odd older cow and the yearly crop of offspring. He doesn’t feed “dairy concentrates” but rather gives a rasher of barley to his lactating cows morning and evening, and he gives them very good rotational pasture in season, as well as, very good hay from his own land.

I can understand genetics playing a major role in the production and health of the house cow, but how many of us truly know the genetics of our cows?

If, as in the case of my Wisconsin friend, some dairy farmers are using semen from other countries where farming philosophies and practices are at odds with our own, but we continue to treat our animals as if they were bred up from animals with local genetics, are we not missing a real opportunity to adjust our own farming philosophies and practices?

If, for instance, my Jerseys descend from a gene pool not requiring grain for long life, health, or production, but I insist on feeding them even modest amounts grain they don’t need, could it be that I am inadvertently shortening their lives, harming their health, and gaining nothing in production?

There are many reasons people are graining their cows. Genetics has a huge role. Through genetic selections people have shaped their animals into the form that economics and propaganda says are "ideal". This often is drasticly different than the natural form of an animal. Emphisis is placed on Dairy character (skinny) and rear udder height and width (High and Wide). This is for the commercial push for production enviroment. A smaller round shoulder, with width in the chest floor type of cow will hopefully take care of herself in lesser than ideal situtions. More commercial operation are starting to recognize these advantages. My other personal opinion is overkindness in general. Grain is cheap; all animals love grain ,and it make the owners feel good. People that keep a cow for milk are generally not doing for the money. Trust me it is far easier and cheaper to go to the store than take care of Betsy 365 days a year. So you do what makes you feel special, secure, and doing the right thing. Just my two cents worth. P.S. I over grain my babies.

observations of a reactionary nature
 

even a holstein cow will not overproduce feeding hay and grain, at most 2lbs of grain a day. her calf can suck her out daily and i only keep the calf off if I want a couple of gallons twice a week for family. my two milk cows will let their milk down with no problem and i leave milk in the udder for the calf to finish up.no problem with mastitis and the animals condition is very good. the rest of my 1st calf heiffers and calves get the same dairy ration, and the calves keep their moms nursed out. one milk cow is jersey and one holstein. I live in upstate ny, and we just finished up with a week of subzero weather. it is not a temperate climate. i am trying to build a dairy slowly without going into debt and will take some time and as finances dictate. this is just another way of doing things.

Haggis,



Keep in mind everyone has their own beleifs, and views, however genetics I think is a big part of an animals production, and other traits. Afterall, breeding better and better gets those 90+ classed animals, they didn't just appear. Now as far as grain and production.



From what I have gathered from grain producers, and anyone else experienced with milking. Grain makes up for what is lacking in their feed, and yes it does increase milk production. However! Let's say you have hay that is 18%, your grain output would not be as great. However if it is 12% for the hay, you would increase grain output to make up for the feed. Think of it this way, say your feeding 50-60lbs a day in feed. Now say its 10lbs of grain on that. That grain isn't much compared to the feed. 50lbs next to 10lbs is quite a difference. Now the grain producers did not say, you can cut grain out entirely, they basically said the amount fed can be reduced if your feed is good.

We bought a nutrition book to read about certain things. Now in this book it shows the needs for lactating animals, heifers and the like. After comparing that to my forage analysis, I lacked a little in some things, while others I exceeded the needs. So that alone is where grain comes in, it would be used to make up those things lacking. Now yes, you need grain regardless, however you won't need tons of it per animal (tons shouldn't be taken literally) if your feed is good. Now as a general view of an animal.


We don't feed that much grain to our animals, they aren't milking as some are herefords, and the others are too young. The difference between heavily grained and not grained is noticeable, the heavily grained animal seems fat, too fat. While the animal raised on grass hay has nice muscle tone, not as fat and seems to be very fertile. All of our animals that are bred by the bull, take on the first time 99% of the time. The other 1% is rare, and I saw it once in the years we have used a bull. That is due to their nutrition, their needs are met and fertility is affected by feed as well. Now an animals weight will do that too, an animal too fat won't take, because there is too much fat around their ovaries. It also is interesting to note, an animal that can run in a pasture, or atleast be able to run outside, and gets sun seems to be healthier, stronger and their coat seems to shine vs dull and dirty. So a lot of the factors with an animal is due to their feed.

There are other things that can affect milk production besides feed, and that is comfort and stress. If an animal is stressed it won't produce as much as an animal that is relaxed. The other part is comfort, if an animal is lying down on cement, or in a dirty stall it won't produce as much as an animal in a comfortable stall. If the stall is easy on their hooves, their legs, their hocks and knees. That will also help. If their lunge room is sufficent (about 2'), that helps. If the animal has easy access to water, doesn't have to reach for food, that helps. Those things can be beneficial to milk production. Farms that have installed mattresses have seen an increase in production, and reduced if not eliminated the problems they had with cement. For example, this one farm was getting 71lbs average. They installed mats, and jumped to about 82 or so lbs a day. It is interesting what a clean, comfortable, stress free enviornment can do. This goes for anything, whether it is beef, or dairy.


Now for some interesting info I was told. Back in the 1970's, a friend of mine had an uncle. He died while milking, however he used to get 50lbs average. He fed all hay, with little grain. I found that interesting, for a couple reasons. The genetics in the 70's likely weren't as good as they are now, his animals might not of had excellent genetics either. His operation was small as well. Now another interesting tid bit, any farmer I have talked with all said, they would love to feed mostly hay. But they can't because they don't have the help. One of these farms, a 1500 cow dairy would love to be able to pasture their animals and feed more hay. But they can't due to the number of animals. It is easier to chop, over baleing. Even if it is large square or round bales. So even the big farms would like to feed mostly hay, and pasture animals. One of the farms we visited grazes their animals for the most part. Their Jerseys are bred for grazing, so there are Jerseys that are grazers. In fact, they graze almost all of their land, so obviously grazing must make a big difference for them, and I think she said it does make a difference. One of those grain producers I mentioned said a customer of his grazes their animals. Their grain bill is minimal, they apparently get a good production due to the grazing.


So it all comes down to personal experience, or even going with the books. I myself will be observing the difference when we get our Jersey bred, and calves around November of 05. I will conduct my own test, I will grain as normal. I will then mix corn meal with haylage, feed 30lbs of that, and 20lbs of hay. Or 30lbs of hay, and 20lbs of haylage, depends what she eats. If I see a good 10lb difference between grain and not grained, then that puts a nail in the coffin for that theory. However if it is only a few lbs over not grained, then it shows good feed makes a big difference. But with dry matter? Hay is mostly dry matter. Our hay this past year was sampled, and it has 90% dry matter. The range is 83-90% for us. The haylage is 35% or so. So you can get your dry matter intake with hay, grain is mostly the extra nutrients. It really comes down to your needs, and if all your doing is feeding your family. I can't see why a lot of grain is necessary. I would feed some, but we did stick two Jerseys on a hereford. She fed both, and had extra. She was producing about 3 gallons, and her diet was mostly hay, she got maybe 3-5lbs of grain a day. This is of course a hereford, but the majority of her diet was hay. We gave her good 2nd cut hay, some alfalfa and she did well. This is a beef animal, so it's not exactly a good example, but the comparison is feed. Perhaps the feed quality made the difference. But I doubt the grain made much of a difference with her milk production. But you did bring up an interesting subject.


Jeff

From reading these posts it leaves a question that has not being answered, what is everyone calling ''grain''? Jeff talks about the local ''grain'' farmer, and others are talking about a dairy''ration'' these are not even on the same page in the book. Throwing some corn in the feed pan is not going to do much for the overall nutrition needs of a lactating dairy cow :no: Protien and fat are probably the most comon things added and most ''grain'' can not come close to even average legume hay in protien content!
Mr Wanda
Mike

I agree. Here, it is because Christine won't shut up 'til she gets her ration! And she has taught the steer to beller right along with her! :rolleyes: :haha:

I dried off our Dorsey so now she stands outside the milk room 2 feet from me and gives the look that says, "You "borrowed on the rent" so now it's payback time; I want my concentrates sweetheart."

I can't milk Lucy with Dorsey staring at me with "THE LOOK" so she gets her concentrates.

Whether she needs them or not, I was the one who started giving them to her, and now she has to have them, or thinks she does.

Just don't let her get fat, Haggis, as that can spell trouble when she next freshens.

Slightly off-topic, but have you noticed how some cows are noiser than others?! On the farm where I work, there are a couple cows that always beller when I go to round them up at milking time. They don't want to get up outta their beds, and they let me know it!

Here at home, Christine is about as noisy as a cow can be. She bellers when she sees people. She bellers when she can't figure out how to bust out of her pen. The steer she raised shows every inclination of following in her footsteps. :rolleyes:

Now, Twist is very quiet -- about the only time I've heard her beller is when Teeny gets out and takes the calves with her. Twist isn't brave enough to venture out, but she doesn't like being left behind, either!

And I don't think I've ever heard Libby-Belle make a sound! :confused:

They beller because, well they are likely spoiled. Here is a good one, the 14 holsteins I bought at first were not noisy, didn't beller, they were quiet. Now that they know us better, and seem to catch on to the treatment, they will beller at feed time, but at first they never did. They get plenty of feed, but its the whole being spoiled thing. The ones we had before this, do this even after being fed. We feed a couple bunk fulls of haylage, then feed them 6 bales of grass hay. Just after the grass hay, some beller. But atleast I know it's because they want something "special" over what they got, rather than they are hungry.


But yes, some do yell more than others, we have one that will yell so darn loud it echos through the valley. She will start yelling 20' from you, and usually this happens when they have calves, gets noisy around here. I also notice, they will beller when they see you feeding another group, thinking that group is getting something better, it is amusing.


But with grain, no doubt a tiny little ration of grain or atleast needed nutrients will be enough for a lactating dairy cow. However, grain comes in where feed is lacking. But it is interesting to note, that the uncle I mentioned (not mine) got his energy through his grain. It seems one of the most important things for milk production is energy.


Jeff

Oh, definitely!

Teeny is pushy, obnoxious and overbearing ... in a friendly sort of way.

She's the cow that came up on our deck a couple weeks ago, and bellered 'cause we wouldn't let her in the house. :no:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...stineFace2.JPG

Nice heifer? cow? in the pic there.

Speaking of "let me inside". This Jersey we have is friendly/curious/seems smart. Well one day Billy (kid that helps out here at times) and I were feeding the animals etc. Well he went out back to get something, and noticed the Jersey running around in the field. She jumped up into the silo room, squeezed through a 2' wide door. Well she duplicated it a week later. I jumped up in to turn the silo unloader on to fill another bunk, well she followed me in. The steps aren't small, they are a good 2' or so, and steep. A holstein did the same thing a week or more ago. It's unreal, spoil them a tiny bit, they can become unruly. BUT! I rather work with a friendly animal, over a skiddish cow. Atleast with a friendly cow, you can get near their kick areas and not get kicked because "I DONT KNOW YOU, THEREFOR I DON'T LIKE YOU". Experienced this with the heifers we got from a farm, this one kicked me in the arse, then leg, two days later almost broke my nose (got to close to her head). She is calming down, but man! Not sure if anyone else notices the same thing, and it seems true. The holsteins with more white, seem to be more high strung. Well poppy is, and you can see it in her eyes.


One mentioned..
http://www.beechtree.us/cows/dairy/poppy.jpg




Jeff

Jeff,
I have a friend who is a vet. He told me that Holsteins that are predominately white are usually more skittish than a predominately black cow. I asked another vet the same thing and she agreed. I'm talking about herd cows not the one or two family cows!
Dan

I never thought about it before, but you're right. I'm thinking back on all the Holstein feeder steers we raised and can see that pattern. We have one we saved to butcher next fall who is mostly black. He's so friendly it's almost scary, he wants to get right next to you, and he's HUGE. We kept him because he put on and held weight better than the others we sold last fall. The ones we sold were almost white. Wonder if the calmness thing has anything to do with the weight thing?
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread.

Wow that's interesting, I'd never heard about the white cow thing before!

I do think genetics has a lot to do with behavior, though. Teeny, of course, was culled for kicking in the parlor and going through fences, but even then, she was a friendly heifer ... you could walk right up to her. Her mom is in the herd at work too, and is the same way. There are about 4 other white cows that all came out of the same herd originally (my boss bought 'em at auction a few years back) and they're all sensible, good cows (good producers too! :D ). OTOH, the worst kicker in the parlor is a white cow (doesn't kick us, just keeps taking her milker off :rolleyes: ). So I dunno!

Poppy's a cutie, Jeff! :)

Here's another of Teeny, taken last fall about 6 months after she had her first calf. This is my favorite picture of her. :)

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-...ineOctober.JPG

calmness does affect weight gain. We raise stocker cattle. If you can gentle those wild things down, they gain weight better. A skiddish steer, who balks and runs and starts to slobber and get wild eyed when you just go in to feed them, will use more energy than one that has figured out that you mean dinnertime when they see you. They also won't get as much feed because they hang back until the tamer fellows eat most of the feed.

http://www.beechtree.us/cows/dairy/turks.jpg

Turks above as you can see is mostly black, and with the little bit of work I have done with her, she is calming down a lot faster than Poppy. Now Jenel (another fairly white cow) isn't as jumpy as poppy, but she isn't as white as poppy. Poppy was born about 13 days after turks. That's not a huge difference, and notice the size. Another one, that is white is Kahlua (for the most part), and this cow only being here for about 5 weeks, has already bonded with me. The funny part is when she came into heat the other day. My mother goes to one window, I go the other (only 3' apart), she goes to my window. When I go in to put hay in the feed rack, I have to sneak in. But any other time? She is a totally different heifer. But she is friendly, lifts her leg when you touch her heifer udder. But the people before me works with their animals a lot, 60 cow dairy.

http://www.beechtree.us/cows/dairy/kahlua.jpg

She is 12 months old, and about 900lbs.


I think this thread has been hijacked a teensy bit, but then again it is about cows! :).


Jeff

Jeff, those are some nice looking heifers!

What's in their bloodlines? Who are the sires?

Just curious! Thanks!

Poppy's sire is "Spy". Not sure which company has "spy" as far as a breeder goes. Her GDAM scored a 75, not sure what the DAM was, wasn't on the papers I got (when we first looked at that bunch). Out of her lot. Amnesty's dam scored an 83, Beachnut's Dam scored an 85. Fame's Dam scored an 85. Now Aquila's sire is mathie, and recently I was looking through select sires thing they sent, showing some info. They said mathie is the oldest bull that select sires had, and he scored 96 at 13 years of age or something. So Aquila has some good genes there. On Saturday we put the 4 with the 10, its been plenty of time since they have been here, it is quite a group. One stands out, the red holstein. To see the ones I mentioned, pictures. Go to www.beechtree.us/cows/ to see beachnut, amnesty and the others, including the Jerseys.

Turks sire is "Enforcer". Her mother scored an 83, GDAM scored an 85.

Kahlua's sire is "Outside". Her mother scored between 85-89.



But thanks for the compliment, because when I went out and looked for animals, I just happen to buy some of the best genetics in the county. I have heard this from a breeder, and from the cattle haulers brother. So this will help, because the calves will be as valueable as they were, as long as I keep the breeding up. But a good solid base will only help, and the whole genetics thing is very interesting. Get this, in that select sires information booklet they sent, there is a farm that holds the world record in milk production for a cow. Now this number blew me away. But how about a cow that gives 200lbs of milk a day? Her peak was over 200lbs. A yearly (forget the exact term) estimation was 76,000 or so lbs. That nearly blew me over, here im impressed with 100lbs, but 200? Good gawd!


Jeff

There is a farm here with some cows making 200# a day. My husband does a little field work for the farmer from time to time. He's probably the top dude in the county. He's building a new barn right now with a new double-10 milking parlor in it. I was offered, in a roundabout way, an opportunity to maybe go to work there, and how I'd love to! I need to keep my health insurance, though, at least for a little while longer ... which means sticking with the gov't job. :(

Jeff, really enjoyed looking at the pics of your cows! :)

We have some Mathie girls on the farm where I work. They all seem to be rather large-framed cows with distinctive heads, and they have a funny attitude. Stubborn, a little smarter than average maybe. One I called "Trixie" because she was harder than heck to get in the pen. Used to have to crank and crank her tail! Then she's get behind the crowd gate and I'd have to bring her up to the parlor at the end, fighting her every step of the way. Finally my boss figured out (the hard way -- she kicked him bad in the knee) that she really HATED needles! So from then on, I'd take a hypodermic out with me ... as soon as she'd see that needle, she's SPRINT toward the front of the pen. But if I didn't have the needle ... :no:

So nice that you're starting with a bunch of heifers there, Jeff ... it's fun to see them grow up into cows. The heifers calving for the first time when I started working on the farm are having their second calves now. It's been real interesting seeing how they turned out. One in particular who was just a scruffy, scatty little thing has matured into a fine cow and a solid producer.

Of course, it's hard to see some of the older girls getting culled along the way ... I expect the Home for Wayward Holsteins will receive a few more residents as the years go by! ;)

A couple questions for you. What is that farm feeding that has those 200lb a day milkers? Are they feeding a TMR? or is it a Partial mixed ration? How much are they feeding on average in lbs? Also are they using hormones? If they are feeding a partial mixed ration, and not using hormones that is interesting what genetics do.

The mathie's that are there, do they have bright eyes? Their eyes are big, bright eyed and seem aware? Aquila isn't high strung, or overly skiddish (nothing like poppy), but has a nice sleek body. Just curious about that.


But with those culled cows, stock up on them, as long as you can feed them and its not breaking the bank, go for it! If I had a facility, where I could nurse back sick cows I would do it, if I had an income that was substantial that is. Im talking cows with mastitis, hoof problems etc. I would bet farms would love a place that could do just that, it would be the same deal as a grower. It takes the burden off their backs, and if you had tons of cash you could have a facility to do just that. I would be curious for kicks how well an animal would turn out in conditions that were clean, comfy. Im talking sick animals. The thing is, if I had it my way id do this for free. Yes you would need nice sizeable income to do that, but it would be interesting. Hey theres an idea, put all the lottery money towards a facility like that, ha! SURE.



Jeff

Jeff, I wish I could tell you more about Dave's feeding program, but I really don't know much about it! I Googled his name to see what would come up, not much other than he took 2nd place for corn silage in the 2004 World's Forage Analysis Superbowl. He also ranked 23rd in NorthStar's list of high producing herds, with 159 cows milking an average of 92#.

My friend Cora is a retired herd tester and her husband works on his farm ... Cora says the genetics are out of this world!

I haven't found the Mathie cows to be skittish, in fact just the opposite ... they tend to be sort of 'large and in charge.' I don't know how to describe what is distinctive about their faces ... their features seem to be almost exaggerated somehow. If I were going to draw a cartoon cow, I'd use a Mathie girl as a model! :haha:

----, I wish I had a sizeable income! If I won the lottery, I'd surely buy some land and expand the Home for Wayward Holsteins! :D I do hope these girls will almost pay their way by raising me up some day-old calves from the sale barn (as well as having some nice heifers, ha!). But mostly I do it just because I'm real attached to the girls, and it's hard to see them culled. :waa:

Buying culls of course is a risky proposition; I've had to be judicious in my selections. I'd hesitate to take a cow with, say, bad feet ... one that was in pain. That would just be prolonging its suffering, no? Twist was a big gamble because there was no guarantee I'd be able to get her bred or get a healthy calf out of her. It is too soon to say whether my bet will pay off -- I'm keeping my fingers crossed, though!

That's interesting, the forage analysis superbowl. I did a search and it brought me to a company who sells seed. Interesting to note the guy who took the top "prize" was using hybrid corn.


http://www.dowagro.com/mycogen/resou.../20031017a.htm

Interesting not only with cows, with the feed genetics, etc play a big role. But the genetics is insteresting, there are cows that bring $150,000 or so. Heck when I used to hear "15k" for a cow, I was amazed. But along with the milking part of what ill be doing in 2006, ill be improving them as well, of course through their calves, because with anything its good to keep good genetics out there. Sure I could breed them to any ol bull, but im going to aim high. But im sure dave has no problem selling heifers, heck bull calves, because of his blood lines. The one place where I bought kahlua, speedy, fido and sassy has some awesome animals. She breeds her animals to bulls with a TPI of 1500+. She breeds them for udder, etc. Her son though is into it big time, he laid down 10k for a calf! He also buys embryos, etc. Funny thing, she won't allow anything off the farm on, she wants to keep all her cows, having her calves not something off the farm. But this whole genetics thing is a very interesting thing. When I went out to look for animals, not only did I by chance pick from the good farms in the county, I ran smack into the genetics side of things. It is interesting, and the more I read the more interesting it gets. Also the more I understand.


With the culling part of things. What really sucks is I know so many years down the road some of these guys I have will need to go. As long as things go well, ill be doing this for a long while. Kahlua, etc any of them they all get old. So ill be enjoying this more, as I know what happens 10-14 years down the road. Sucks, but its all part of the buisness. Thats the one bad thing when its a small farm, and you know them all. If it is a huge group, its a bit different. But anyways, culling at any farm isn't a easy task, especially if its a cow that you knew for a long time, or it was a one hell of a producer.

So basically what your running is like a horse farm, where old race horses go. Except, they are old dairy cows. But at any rate, good luck with that cow, hope she calves and its a beauty :).


Jeff

Thanks Jeff! And I wish you success in your venture, too! :)

My boss has a couple high-dollar heifers he brought back from an auction in Pennsylvania. He paid $5,000 for one! She is a white cow, I call her Penelope 'cause she from PA. She is just the sweetest thing (likes to be petted). She's also gorgeous, and she's going to be huge!

One thing I find frustrating about genetics is that when you Google a sire's name, looking for info, mostly what you'll find is promotional stuff from Genex or Select Sires, etc. I wish there was somewhere you could get the real scoop from farmers ... like yesterday, Mark told me Metro cows are noted for having good production but bad udders (Twist's long teats made it hard to get her completely milked out on the machine. I always had to strip her out by machine, and I don't think some of the other milkers took the time to do it, so she frequently had mastitis, another reason she was culled.) It would be nice if there were a website out there where you could get this kind of feedback, not just the "isn't he great?" stuff from the purveyors of fine bull semen.

I actually know very little about the genetics side of things since that isn't one of my responsibilities on the farm. About half of our cows are ear-tagged including sire's name, though, so I've formed some general opinions, although they might in some cases be very prejudiced as my experience may be based on only a handful of cows!

Here's something to think about when it's time to cull. I've often wondered if it might be more effective to keep calves together in a big pen, and throw an old cow in with them to mother them? A lot of cows are very maternal and will care for calves not their own. The cow would lick the calves and they could snuggle up with her and keep warm on cold nights. With some heifers worth thousands of dollars, it seems like the cost of keeping an old cow or two would be worthwhile if it decreased calf mortality.

Interesting suggestion, and it would save from getting rid of the animal right away, unless it was in serious pain from something. But what I plan on doing with my calf setup, will be sorta unique. I will have 4 "tents", more or less those things that have roll up sides, etc. Well the tents would sit facing each other, 5 in each "tent". This keep them social, keeps them free to walk around vs locked up. If its a windy, cold day, I can drop the sides to give wind protection. I would have another that would be closed in with some hay, bedding in, etc. All the small "tents" would be anchored enough to hold up to some good winds.

From what I have seen here, and have seen at other farms. When calves can interact with each other, and have some "running room", thet do well. They put on nice muscle vs fat. They tend to be healthier. I also find SUN, the good ol sun gives them a boost. They can lay and soak it up, go into their trance. Cleaning would be easy, make a pile and clean it up once a week off to the side. This layout would give them space to run, space to get sun, and protection from the elements. Since I watch the weather like a hawk, I can prepare accordingly. Of course once they get beyond that initial period, they can take a little bit more, as they get stronger. I also will put it so its fairly close to the barn on the level area. It should be interesting, and then stick the donkey on the paremeter for protection! ;).

But genetics im going to dive into more, 10 of the holsteins have tags in each ear. One shows the name/birthdate. The other shows the sire. I like that, but for my small operation ill have the sire in my head :). I hope poppy turns out like penelope. When I get some time from working on the barn, ill tie her up for 20 minutes a day untill she quits it with the attitude. I haltered her the other day, and I had to grab her back legs to get her to stop kicking. She has a very wild side to her, and has the constant nervous look. Maybe its her coloration, but geeze..


Here is amnesty.

http://www.beechtree.us/amnesty.jpg

This was her 3 days after she was here below.

http://www.beechtree.us/cows/dairy/amnesty.jpg


She looks bigger to me, but its hard to say. They all seem bigger, gotta be that haylage!


Jeff

Calves grow FAST, don't they?!

Ya know, when Libby-Belle was little, she was not friendly at all. She was scared of me. Finally, one day I got a rope halter on her, and let her drag me all over the barnyard! I finally got her tied up short to a post, then rubbed her and petted her all over. When she settled down finally, I let her go. I think I had to repeat this a couple times, but I guess it finally sank in that I wasn't going to hurt her, and she hasn't been afraid of me since. (Now I sometimes wish she were a little more intimidated!)

BTW, a neighbor who raises beef cattle told me the reason she's so feisty is because she has some Belted blood in her. I guess those Belted cattle are a real handful!

Anyway, maybe you could try trying Poppy up and just petting her or maybe giving her treats until she settles down or at least stops kicking. I do think genetics or maybe just inborn temperament comes into play ... some heifers are friendly despite hardly being handled, and others don't seem to be inclined to warm up at all. Mark bought another heifer the same time as Penelope (I call that one Darla) and she's a flighty thing, I KNOW we're going to have a battle with her when she comes into the milking herd!!!

Jeff, the only problem I see with your calf plan is the tendency of calves to suck on each other. I see it a lot with the heifers that are kept confined to single pens. They seem to develop an almost pathological (well, actually it's natural, isn't it?!) tendency to suck on anything they can find. (Kinda sad huh?) My thoughts in putting an old cull cow in there is that it would satisfy their nursing instinct. Although it might be harder to get them to drink from a bottle ...

There is a whole lot about the dynamics between mothers and babies that isn't taken into consideration in the ways cows are raised. For instance, just the way the cow keeps its calf warm ... how many little calves born in winter on commercial farms get chilled, get pneumonia? Mark was using an antibiotic called Exonel last winter that was $75 a bottle, yikes!!! Also there are psychological aspects ... for instance if something scares a calf, it will usually run to momma and sometimes nurse a bit, for comfort. I really don't see how you can raise a well-adjusted animal when you take it away from its mother at birth. But obviously farmers ARE raising cows successfully under these conditions ... still I can't help wondering how much BETTER they might be, or how many more would survive to adulthood, if we made an effort to raise them under conditions a little closer to what Nature intended!

(OK ... OFF the soapbox now!) :haha:

Yeah they like to suck each others ears, and that isn't good. What I will likely do is tie them in there, they can interact, and while im out there I can let them run around to get excersise, and get sun. I would keep their leads long enough to move around, but short enough so they can't reach each other. It won't restrict them, more room than a calf hutch, and easier to clean. The lady who we bought the Jerseys from had a setup where they could just about nose each other, they were on leads. Her setup seemed to work well, so if I modified it a little to fit under things as mentioned, it should work. A lot of time before that anyways, so more time to brainstorm! :).


Those Jerseys.
http://www.beechtree.us/jerseys.jpg


If only it was sanitary, and would not create problems. Would be perfect if you could let the calves finish off the mothers. However it's not sanitary, and could create problems. I know someone who did this with his steers. Let them out, they plugged in, finished them off after he milked. We leave our hereford calves with the mom as long as possible. This year we sold off ones that were born in April or so. That milk/pasture exposure made a huge difference. They put on weight quickly, and grow like crazy. But taking them away sucks even after 4-5 months. They moo for 2 days, and stop. But the first time we did this 2 years ago (2003) it sucked. They mooed for days, and it was non stop. Neighbors heard it, etc. But this past fall it worked well, we sold what we were going to sell at the same time, and when they were older. It did help.

Also beginning Thursday ill be tying poppy up for 15-20 minutes a day untill she calms down. The others are coming around, but she is going to be the main challenge. She isn't bad, just needs to realise im not going to hurt her. Atleast she is small, and her kicks are easy to control.


Jeff