Observations of a Reactionary Nature

They beller because, well they are likely spoiled. Here is a good one, the 14 holsteins I bought at first were not noisy, didn't beller, they were quiet. Now that they know us better, and seem to catch on to the treatment, they will beller at feed time, but at first they never did. They get plenty of feed, but its the whole being spoiled thing. The ones we had before this, do this even after being fed. We feed a couple bunk fulls of haylage, then feed them 6 bales of grass hay. Just after the grass hay, some beller. But atleast I know it's because they want something "special" over what they got, rather than they are hungry.


But yes, some do yell more than others, we have one that will yell so darn loud it echos through the valley. She will start yelling 20' from you, and usually this happens when they have calves, gets noisy around here. I also notice, they will beller when they see you feeding another group, thinking that group is getting something better, it is amusing.


But with grain, no doubt a tiny little ration of grain or atleast needed nutrients will be enough for a lactating dairy cow. However, grain comes in where feed is lacking. But it is interesting to note, that the uncle I mentioned (not mine) got his energy through his grain. It seems one of the most important things for milk production is energy.


Jeff

Oh, definitely!

Teeny is pushy, obnoxious and overbearing ... in a friendly sort of way.

She's the cow that came up on our deck a couple weeks ago, and bellered 'cause we wouldn't let her in the house. :no:

__________________
"I love all of this mud," said no one, ever.

Nice heifer? cow? in the pic there.

Speaking of "let me inside". This Jersey we have is friendly/curious/seems smart. Well one day Billy (kid that helps out here at times) and I were feeding the animals etc. Well he went out back to get something, and noticed the Jersey running around in the field. She jumped up into the silo room, squeezed through a 2' wide door. Well she duplicated it a week later. I jumped up in to turn the silo unloader on to fill another bunk, well she followed me in. The steps aren't small, they are a good 2' or so, and steep. A holstein did the same thing a week or more ago. It's unreal, spoil them a tiny bit, they can become unruly. BUT! I rather work with a friendly animal, over a skiddish cow. Atleast with a friendly cow, you can get near their kick areas and not get kicked because "I DONT KNOW YOU, THEREFOR I DON'T LIKE YOU". Experienced this with the heifers we got from a farm, this one kicked me in the arse, then leg, two days later almost broke my nose (got to close to her head). She is calming down, but man! Not sure if anyone else notices the same thing, and it seems true. The holsteins with more white, seem to be more high strung. Well poppy is, and you can see it in her eyes.


One mentioned..





Jeff

Jeff,
I have a friend who is a vet. He told me that Holsteins that are predominately white are usually more skittish than a predominately black cow. I asked another vet the same thing and she agreed. I'm talking about herd cows not the one or two family cows!
Dan

I never thought about it before, but you're right. I'm thinking back on all the Holstein feeder steers we raised and can see that pattern. We have one we saved to butcher next fall who is mostly black. He's so friendly it's almost scary, he wants to get right next to you, and he's HUGE. We kept him because he put on and held weight better than the others we sold last fall. The ones we sold were almost white. Wonder if the calmness thing has anything to do with the weight thing?
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread.

Wow that's interesting, I'd never heard about the white cow thing before!

I do think genetics has a lot to do with behavior, though. Teeny, of course, was culled for kicking in the parlor and going through fences, but even then, she was a friendly heifer ... you could walk right up to her. Her mom is in the herd at work too, and is the same way. There are about 4 other white cows that all came out of the same herd originally (my boss bought 'em at auction a few years back) and they're all sensible, good cows (good producers too! ). OTOH, the worst kicker in the parlor is a white cow (doesn't kick us, just keeps taking her milker off ). So I dunno!

Poppy's a cutie, Jeff!

Here's another of Teeny, taken last fall about 6 months after she had her first calf. This is my favorite picture of her.

__________________
"I love all of this mud," said no one, ever.

calmness does affect weight gain. We raise stocker cattle. If you can gentle those wild things down, they gain weight better. A skiddish steer, who balks and runs and starts to slobber and get wild eyed when you just go in to feed them, will use more energy than one that has figured out that you mean dinnertime when they see you. They also won't get as much feed because they hang back until the tamer fellows eat most of the feed.

Turks above as you can see is mostly black, and with the little bit of work I have done with her, she is calming down a lot faster than Poppy. Now Jenel (another fairly white cow) isn't as jumpy as poppy, but she isn't as white as poppy. Poppy was born about 13 days after turks. That's not a huge difference, and notice the size. Another one, that is white is Kahlua (for the most part), and this cow only being here for about 5 weeks, has already bonded with me. The funny part is when she came into heat the other day. My mother goes to one window, I go the other (only 3' apart), she goes to my window. When I go in to put hay in the feed rack, I have to sneak in. But any other time? She is a totally different heifer. But she is friendly, lifts her leg when you touch her heifer udder. But the people before me works with their animals a lot, 60 cow dairy.



She is 12 months old, and about 900lbs.


I think this thread has been hijacked a teensy bit, but then again it is about cows! .


Jeff

Jeff, those are some nice looking heifers!

What's in their bloodlines? Who are the sires?

Just curious! Thanks!

__________________
"I love all of this mud," said no one, ever.

Poppy's sire is "Spy". Not sure which company has "spy" as far as a breeder goes. Her GDAM scored a 75, not sure what the DAM was, wasn't on the papers I got (when we first looked at that bunch). Out of her lot. Amnesty's dam scored an 83, Beachnut's Dam scored an 85. Fame's Dam scored an 85. Now Aquila's sire is mathie, and recently I was looking through select sires thing they sent, showing some info. They said mathie is the oldest bull that select sires had, and he scored 96 at 13 years of age or something. So Aquila has some good genes there. On Saturday we put the 4 with the 10, its been plenty of time since they have been here, it is quite a group. One stands out, the red holstein. To see the ones I mentioned, pictures. Go to www.beechtree.us/cows/ to see beachnut, amnesty and the others, including the Jerseys.

Turks sire is "Enforcer". Her mother scored an 83, GDAM scored an 85.

Kahlua's sire is "Outside". Her mother scored between 85-89.



But thanks for the compliment, because when I went out and looked for animals, I just happen to buy some of the best genetics in the county. I have heard this from a breeder, and from the cattle haulers brother. So this will help, because the calves will be as valueable as they were, as long as I keep the breeding up. But a good solid base will only help, and the whole genetics thing is very interesting. Get this, in that select sires information booklet they sent, there is a farm that holds the world record in milk production for a cow. Now this number blew me away. But how about a cow that gives 200lbs of milk a day? Her peak was over 200lbs. A yearly (forget the exact term) estimation was 76,000 or so lbs. That nearly blew me over, here im impressed with 100lbs, but 200? Good gawd!


Jeff

There is a farm here with some cows making 200# a day. My husband does a little field work for the farmer from time to time. He's probably the top dude in the county. He's building a new barn right now with a new double-10 milking parlor in it. I was offered, in a roundabout way, an opportunity to maybe go to work there, and how I'd love to! I need to keep my health insurance, though, at least for a little while longer ... which means sticking with the gov't job.

Jeff, really enjoyed looking at the pics of your cows!

We have some Mathie girls on the farm where I work. They all seem to be rather large-framed cows with distinctive heads, and they have a funny attitude. Stubborn, a little smarter than average maybe. One I called "Trixie" because she was harder than heck to get in the pen. Used to have to crank and crank her tail! Then she's get behind the crowd gate and I'd have to bring her up to the parlor at the end, fighting her every step of the way. Finally my boss figured out (the hard way -- she kicked him bad in the knee) that she really HATED needles! So from then on, I'd take a hypodermic out with me ... as soon as she'd see that needle, she's SPRINT toward the front of the pen. But if I didn't have the needle ... :no:

So nice that you're starting with a bunch of heifers there, Jeff ... it's fun to see them grow up into cows. The heifers calving for the first time when I started working on the farm are having their second calves now. It's been real interesting seeing how they turned out. One in particular who was just a scruffy, scatty little thing has matured into a fine cow and a solid producer.

Of course, it's hard to see some of the older girls getting culled along the way ... I expect the Home for Wayward Holsteins will receive a few more residents as the years go by!

__________________
"I love all of this mud," said no one, ever.

A couple questions for you. What is that farm feeding that has those 200lb a day milkers? Are they feeding a TMR? or is it a Partial mixed ration? How much are they feeding on average in lbs? Also are they using hormones? If they are feeding a partial mixed ration, and not using hormones that is interesting what genetics do.

The mathie's that are there, do they have bright eyes? Their eyes are big, bright eyed and seem aware? Aquila isn't high strung, or overly skiddish (nothing like poppy), but has a nice sleek body. Just curious about that.


But with those culled cows, stock up on them, as long as you can feed them and its not breaking the bank, go for it! If I had a facility, where I could nurse back sick cows I would do it, if I had an income that was substantial that is. Im talking cows with mastitis, hoof problems etc. I would bet farms would love a place that could do just that, it would be the same deal as a grower. It takes the burden off their backs, and if you had tons of cash you could have a facility to do just that. I would be curious for kicks how well an animal would turn out in conditions that were clean, comfy. Im talking sick animals. The thing is, if I had it my way id do this for free. Yes you would need nice sizeable income to do that, but it would be interesting. Hey theres an idea, put all the lottery money towards a facility like that, ha! SURE.



Jeff

Jeff, I wish I could tell you more about Dave's feeding program, but I really don't know much about it! I Googled his name to see what would come up, not much other than he took 2nd place for corn silage in the 2004 World's Forage Analysis Superbowl. He also ranked 23rd in NorthStar's list of high producing herds, with 159 cows milking an average of 92#.

My friend Cora is a retired herd tester and her husband works on his farm ... Cora says the genetics are out of this world!

I haven't found the Mathie cows to be skittish, in fact just the opposite ... they tend to be sort of 'large and in charge.' I don't know how to describe what is distinctive about their faces ... their features seem to be almost exaggerated somehow. If I were going to draw a cartoon cow, I'd use a Mathie girl as a model! :haha:

----, I wish I had a sizeable income! If I won the lottery, I'd surely buy some land and expand the Home for Wayward Holsteins! I do hope these girls will almost pay their way by raising me up some day-old calves from the sale barn (as well as having some nice heifers, ha!). But mostly I do it just because I'm real attached to the girls, and it's hard to see them culled. :waa:

Buying culls of course is a risky proposition; I've had to be judicious in my selections. I'd hesitate to take a cow with, say, bad feet ... one that was in pain. That would just be prolonging its suffering, no? Twist was a big gamble because there was no guarantee I'd be able to get her bred or get a healthy calf out of her. It is too soon to say whether my bet will pay off -- I'm keeping my fingers crossed, though!

__________________
"I love all of this mud," said no one, ever.

That's interesting, the forage analysis superbowl. I did a search and it brought me to a company who sells seed. Interesting to note the guy who took the top "prize" was using hybrid corn.


http://www.dowagro.com/mycogen/resou.../20031017a.htm

Interesting not only with cows, with the feed genetics, etc play a big role. But the genetics is insteresting, there are cows that bring $150,000 or so. Heck when I used to hear "15k" for a cow, I was amazed. But along with the milking part of what ill be doing in 2006, ill be improving them as well, of course through their calves, because with anything its good to keep good genetics out there. Sure I could breed them to any ol bull, but im going to aim high. But im sure dave has no problem selling heifers, heck bull calves, because of his blood lines. The one place where I bought kahlua, speedy, fido and sassy has some awesome animals. She breeds her animals to bulls with a TPI of 1500+. She breeds them for udder, etc. Her son though is into it big time, he laid down 10k for a calf! He also buys embryos, etc. Funny thing, she won't allow anything off the farm on, she wants to keep all her cows, having her calves not something off the farm. But this whole genetics thing is a very interesting thing. When I went out to look for animals, not only did I by chance pick from the good farms in the county, I ran smack into the genetics side of things. It is interesting, and the more I read the more interesting it gets. Also the more I understand.


With the culling part of things. What really sucks is I know so many years down the road some of these guys I have will need to go. As long as things go well, ill be doing this for a long while. Kahlua, etc any of them they all get old. So ill be enjoying this more, as I know what happens 10-14 years down the road. Sucks, but its all part of the buisness. Thats the one bad thing when its a small farm, and you know them all. If it is a huge group, its a bit different. But anyways, culling at any farm isn't a easy task, especially if its a cow that you knew for a long time, or it was a one hell of a producer.

So basically what your running is like a horse farm, where old race horses go. Except, they are old dairy cows. But at any rate, good luck with that cow, hope she calves and its a beauty .


Jeff

Thanks Jeff! And I wish you success in your venture, too!

My boss has a couple high-dollar heifers he brought back from an auction in Pennsylvania. He paid $5,000 for one! She is a white cow, I call her Penelope 'cause she from PA. She is just the sweetest thing (likes to be petted). She's also gorgeous, and she's going to be huge!

One thing I find frustrating about genetics is that when you Google a sire's name, looking for info, mostly what you'll find is promotional stuff from Genex or Select Sires, etc. I wish there was somewhere you could get the real scoop from farmers ... like yesterday, Mark told me Metro cows are noted for having good production but bad udders (Twist's long teats made it hard to get her completely milked out on the machine. I always had to strip her out by machine, and I don't think some of the other milkers took the time to do it, so she frequently had mastitis, another reason she was culled.) It would be nice if there were a website out there where you could get this kind of feedback, not just the "isn't he great?" stuff from the purveyors of fine bull semen.

I actually know very little about the genetics side of things since that isn't one of my responsibilities on the farm. About half of our cows are ear-tagged including sire's name, though, so I've formed some general opinions, although they might in some cases be very prejudiced as my experience may be based on only a handful of cows!

Here's something to think about when it's time to cull. I've often wondered if it might be more effective to keep calves together in a big pen, and throw an old cow in with them to mother them? A lot of cows are very maternal and will care for calves not their own. The cow would lick the calves and they could snuggle up with her and keep warm on cold nights. With some heifers worth thousands of dollars, it seems like the cost of keeping an old cow or two would be worthwhile if it decreased calf mortality.

__________________
"I love all of this mud," said no one, ever.

Interesting suggestion, and it would save from getting rid of the animal right away, unless it was in serious pain from something. But what I plan on doing with my calf setup, will be sorta unique. I will have 4 "tents", more or less those things that have roll up sides, etc. Well the tents would sit facing each other, 5 in each "tent". This keep them social, keeps them free to walk around vs locked up. If its a windy, cold day, I can drop the sides to give wind protection. I would have another that would be closed in with some hay, bedding in, etc. All the small "tents" would be anchored enough to hold up to some good winds.

From what I have seen here, and have seen at other farms. When calves can interact with each other, and have some "running room", thet do well. They put on nice muscle vs fat. They tend to be healthier. I also find SUN, the good ol sun gives them a boost. They can lay and soak it up, go into their trance. Cleaning would be easy, make a pile and clean it up once a week off to the side. This layout would give them space to run, space to get sun, and protection from the elements. Since I watch the weather like a hawk, I can prepare accordingly. Of course once they get beyond that initial period, they can take a little bit more, as they get stronger. I also will put it so its fairly close to the barn on the level area. It should be interesting, and then stick the donkey on the paremeter for protection! .

But genetics im going to dive into more, 10 of the holsteins have tags in each ear. One shows the name/birthdate. The other shows the sire. I like that, but for my small operation ill have the sire in my head . I hope poppy turns out like penelope. When I get some time from working on the barn, ill tie her up for 20 minutes a day untill she quits it with the attitude. I haltered her the other day, and I had to grab her back legs to get her to stop kicking. She has a very wild side to her, and has the constant nervous look. Maybe its her coloration, but geeze..


Here is amnesty.



This was her 3 days after she was here below.




She looks bigger to me, but its hard to say. They all seem bigger, gotta be that haylage!


Jeff

Calves grow FAST, don't they?!

Ya know, when Libby-Belle was little, she was not friendly at all. She was scared of me. Finally, one day I got a rope halter on her, and let her drag me all over the barnyard! I finally got her tied up short to a post, then rubbed her and petted her all over. When she settled down finally, I let her go. I think I had to repeat this a couple times, but I guess it finally sank in that I wasn't going to hurt her, and she hasn't been afraid of me since. (Now I sometimes wish she were a little more intimidated!)

BTW, a neighbor who raises beef cattle told me the reason she's so feisty is because she has some Belted blood in her. I guess those Belted cattle are a real handful!

Anyway, maybe you could try trying Poppy up and just petting her or maybe giving her treats until she settles down or at least stops kicking. I do think genetics or maybe just inborn temperament comes into play ... some heifers are friendly despite hardly being handled, and others don't seem to be inclined to warm up at all. Mark bought another heifer the same time as Penelope (I call that one Darla) and she's a flighty thing, I KNOW we're going to have a battle with her when she comes into the milking herd!!!

Jeff, the only problem I see with your calf plan is the tendency of calves to suck on each other. I see it a lot with the heifers that are kept confined to single pens. They seem to develop an almost pathological (well, actually it's natural, isn't it?!) tendency to suck on anything they can find. (Kinda sad huh?) My thoughts in putting an old cull cow in there is that it would satisfy their nursing instinct. Although it might be harder to get them to drink from a bottle ...

There is a whole lot about the dynamics between mothers and babies that isn't taken into consideration in the ways cows are raised. For instance, just the way the cow keeps its calf warm ... how many little calves born in winter on commercial farms get chilled, get pneumonia? Mark was using an antibiotic called Exonel last winter that was $75 a bottle, yikes!!! Also there are psychological aspects ... for instance if something scares a calf, it will usually run to momma and sometimes nurse a bit, for comfort. I really don't see how you can raise a well-adjusted animal when you take it away from its mother at birth. But obviously farmers ARE raising cows successfully under these conditions ... still I can't help wondering how much BETTER they might be, or how many more would survive to adulthood, if we made an effort to raise them under conditions a little closer to what Nature intended!

(OK ... OFF the soapbox now!) :haha:

__________________
"I love all of this mud," said no one, ever.

Yeah they like to suck each others ears, and that isn't good. What I will likely do is tie them in there, they can interact, and while im out there I can let them run around to get excersise, and get sun. I would keep their leads long enough to move around, but short enough so they can't reach each other. It won't restrict them, more room than a calf hutch, and easier to clean. The lady who we bought the Jerseys from had a setup where they could just about nose each other, they were on leads. Her setup seemed to work well, so if I modified it a little to fit under things as mentioned, it should work. A lot of time before that anyways, so more time to brainstorm! .


Those Jerseys.



If only it was sanitary, and would not create problems. Would be perfect if you could let the calves finish off the mothers. However it's not sanitary, and could create problems. I know someone who did this with his steers. Let them out, they plugged in, finished them off after he milked. We leave our hereford calves with the mom as long as possible. This year we sold off ones that were born in April or so. That milk/pasture exposure made a huge difference. They put on weight quickly, and grow like crazy. But taking them away sucks even after 4-5 months. They moo for 2 days, and stop. But the first time we did this 2 years ago (2003) it sucked. They mooed for days, and it was non stop. Neighbors heard it, etc. But this past fall it worked well, we sold what we were going to sell at the same time, and when they were older. It did help.

Also beginning Thursday ill be tying poppy up for 15-20 minutes a day untill she calms down. The others are coming around, but she is going to be the main challenge. She isn't bad, just needs to realise im not going to hurt her. Atleast she is small, and her kicks are easy to control.


Jeff