Need advice on Dexter Cattle
 

We have 3 Dexter Heifers. Just across the fence are Charolaise cattle and a Charolaise Bull. The fence is electrified. We do not want the neighbors' bull mating with our Dexters. He is too big! Any advice on keeping them apart? Also we are looking at Dexter bulls. Would that solve the problem?

I fought the same battle with Angus cattle next door. We put up two layers of field fence between T-posts and railroad ties. It wasn't enough to keep the Angus bull out. He got on top of the fence and rode it down.

My little cows' savior was my dwarf Dexter bull. He was able to put his horns under the Angus bull's body and pitch him onto his back. A couple of hard jabs with the horns and the Angus bull ran for home. Along the way he hit my fence full speed, breaking off two partly rotted railroad ties and bending two T-posts over.

My cows were safe.

I promptly electrified the newly repaired fence and added a T-post between every existing fence post. That may have worked, but I never got to test it.

First I went to the bull's owner and informed him that the next time his bull got into my pasture, I would shoot him. He moved the Angus herd to his other pastures.

Life is good.

I would not advise shooting someones bull unless you have a lot of extra money!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know about VA but as far as I know it is legal to shoot animals harassing livestock in most places.

If my bull somehow ended up on your side of the fence, you'd have an awful hard time convincing me that your only option was to shoot my bull because he was "harassing" your cycling heifers.

You'd either be buying me a new bull, would have started a never-ending feud that you would never win, or most likely both of the above.

There are millions of cattle sharing fence lines without any trouble or gunfire. Maintain your fences, add a hot wire or two and get a quality fence energizer, and you won't have anything to worry about.

Don't get your panties in a bunch. I condensed the story to a quick read. There is a lot more to it than that.

To start, the only place on his property that the fence was even halfway adequate was the 400' where it adjoined mine. The neighbors had called the animal control officer so many times for these Angus roaming free, that he was in jeopardy of being charged under our state's new law.

My bull's victory in battle was a landmark in the case. The animal control officer issued a threat to lock up the owner the next time his bull got out. The owner tried to avoid it by telling us that he could not contain these cattle. He turned to me and said that if his bull got into my pasture again, just shoot him. Don't bother calling him any more because he couldn't keep the bull in. I told him I'd do it.

Well he wasn't telling it right. He could keep him in, but only by moving him to a different pasture, with adequate fences. That is where he kept his horses. It was his best pasture. He reluctantly gave in and moved his cattle to the other pasture, where he could hold them.

I offered my labor to help him fix his fences. He took me up on it and we worked part of one day. I believe that was the first day he had ever seen just how bad his fences were. He gave up. What he needed was to tear down his old rusted fence and put up a new one. Thousands of dollars.

I thought that was the end of it, and it was for 2 years. Then he stopped by to let me know he was starting to put up new fences. He'd bought some wire at an auction. Now all he needed was to hire a couple of men to set posts and string the wire. He planned on putting 3 strands of barbed wire between T-posts.

I just shook my head.

I have already bought the supplies to add more electric wires to the section we share.

I don't know if you have ever seen a 2000# bull trying to breed a 600# cow. It's not pretty. The cow doesn't often come away uninjured. It's bad enough with a 900# dwarf bull from her own breed.

I just reread your post #2 and that is not the way I interpreted it. It sounds like you are advising the OP if the bull got to the heifers one option would be to shoot the bull. Maybe you should have thought how it sounded before you posted the reply.

Great fences can not always hold in a Bull with ladies on the mind. It happens....but what is the right thing to do when your cow on your property is being hurt....(large bull vs small cow) Stand and watch?....Try to get him to dismount with out being injured yourself?.......Get the neighbor who owns the bull to do something? (By that time its to late anyway) What would Wanda do???????

It all depends on the facilities at hand. I am 66 years old and have been around livestock all of my life, thankfully I have never had the need to arise. If I were concerned about a small heifers well being I would pen her up in the lot or barn for the 3 days she is in heat. When you say being ''hurt'',do you mean being mounted or becoming bred to early? If you have a tractor or vehicle of about any kind, you can move them pretty quickly.

The issue is that a cow could easily be killed by a bull 3 times her size attempting to breed her. Even if she survived unscathed, there's no way she's going to be able to deliver that calf. The cow owner has potential three-fold financial loses - out the cost of the dead cow, the dead calf, and time lost breeding back while he's searching out replacement stock.

As for moving the cows while they're in heat, I doubt that's a practical solution. I can sort of estimate when my cows are coming up, but I might miss it by a day or two. A lot of older cows don't show many signs of heat, either. The bull can probably tell before humans can tell, lol

If I were the OP, I would clarify what the local ordinances are and act accordingly. In my area you are permitted to kill an animal that presents an immediate threat to stock. I actually had the sheriff tell me to just shoot the dog that kept coming onto my property after my poultry instead of calling them. (I wasn't home and the babysitter called the PD about the dog.) the bull could fall under he same category, depending on the local laws. It's a potential threAt to humans, too. I'm surprised someone hasn't taken it out by now. Plenty of my older neighbors would.

Any Bull on my property is getting put down, hard and fast. I do not play with dynamite or someone else's bull... neither is safe nor smart.

"Hurt"...1200-1600 lbs Bull jumping up, kicking and mounting a 500-800 lbs cow....that might injure the cow. If the cow is breed the chances of birthing issues are high presuming the calf is large. I haven't been around livestock all my life but if my animals are on my property and they are in danger from neighbors dogs, bulls or anything else I would defend my animals anyway necessary. I would hate it if a neighbor had to kill one of my animals but I would understand the decision to protect his livestock.

Just how do all of you internet warriors plan on putting done a full grown bull? Your 22 isn't going to do it, nor your shotgun, even your big bad '06 probably won't do it in one shot.

Then what are you going to do if the Law isn't on your side? Some body is going to be looking for replacement value for, I guarantee once he's dead, a very expensive high powered breeding bull, just at killing price a bull is worth a couple thousand right now.

I'm glade none of you are my neighbors.

Allen W

While I would not shoot a neighbors bull unless I had no other option I can say without doubt that you are mistaken that a shotgun, or 30.06 wouldn't drop it dead in it's tracks with a well placed bullet.

The .22 cal. would need very good placement to be effective in putting down a full sized bull but that cal. would suffice if nothing bigger was on hand.

And yes, I do know what I am talking about. I am an avid shooter, hunter, and have used guns to put down large animals before butchering at home.

the follow up to your second question.

If the need arose to put-down a bull that was destroying your property, or endangering your livestock, the law would be on your side in any place I have ever lived.

I cannot think of a single state that would not allow that as a legal outcome.

If for some reason the law wasn't on your side in putting down a bull that was destroying property/endangering you or your livestock than I would strongly suggest you move.

A certain responsibility comes with living in the country and raising livestock. The city mentality of "call the police" in the above situation doesn't cut it.

By the time the sheriff arrived he would be of no good.

YOU as the caretaker of your livestock need to have the tools and desire to handle things on your own.

All I can say is what a load of bull, if you can get close enough to kill a bull with a .22 then he can't be a threat to anything on your property.

As excited as everyone seems to be about killing each and every bull that might get onto their property you'd think that we were talking about the neighbor's grizzly bear getting out and killing a bunch of cows.

I've put a bull down, I can assure you your 22 won't do the job.

I've handled some pretty rank bulls and shooting one, especially one that wasn't mine has never crossed my mind other then to put one down and end his suffering when there was no other option.

Allen W......you might now a lot about Bulls but you don't know much about ballistics. The point isn't about what weapon would be used to defend your animals on your own property. Every rural area I've lived in gives property owners the right to defend their own livestock when directly in harms way. Maybe the city limits you live in has other laws. Don't worry I would be your neighbor either.

Go heart that W

Not worth the trouble, you can't fix stupid, I'm out of this place.

The point isn't whether you are within your rights to shoot a bull because you think it might "harm" your heifers, or how big of a gun you'll need to kill a bull, it's that it's going to be extremely rare for a bull to go through your perimeter fences if you maintain them and/or add a good hot electric wire (at least that's my experience).

It's a waste of time and energy to worry about something that is unlikely to happen and is easily preventable.

But I still think that suggesting you can kill any bull that happens to get onto your property without any repercussions is about the worst advice I've heard in a long time.

ramiller5675 1st off if you read all posts the discussion about shooting a bull was in the context he was "harming" "hurting" "injuring" "harassing" your cows/heifers.

2nd bulls have gone through the best fences...might be rare for you or anyone. point is it happens. the discussion was about it happening.

3rd I find it hard to believe that most people would stand and watch....but some would........not me.

You can argue all you want, but you're still going to have a hard time convincing me that any bull is trying to "harm" your heifers by trying to breed them.

I thought the original question was about the possibility of the neighbor's bull crossing the fence and what should be done, and then it turned into something else

Most people wouldn't stand and watch what? Most bulls aren't going to attack, hurt, harm, or harass your cattle.

I'm tired of arguing about something that almost never happens, just keep your perimeter fences maintained and use a little common sense.

i really have no opinion on the whole bull "problem" as it doesnt really sound like a problem. maybe a potential problem, but a charolais bull breeding a dexter heifer will harm them. whether its instant or 9 months down the road. it doesnt matter if the bull is trying to or not.

[QUOTE=ramiller5675;
You'd either be buying me a new bull, would have started a never-ending feud that you would never win, or most likely both of the above.
[/QUOTE]

That was part of my point also was problems during birth if breeding was completed. Granted shooting someone else's animal is the last ditch effort after all else has been done. Granted the heifers owner maintains there fence properly. Granted it might happen on a rare occasion. But it only takes once to harm a young heifer. I was replying to post #2 Genbo, #3 Wanda and #5 ramiller5675, you expressed your viewpoint how "someone would be buying you a new bull" I'm expressing my viewpoint that I would not. Livestock owners have rights too. Post #2 highlighted that talking to the bulls owner was the first step, you might have missed that. The OP already had an electric fence, you might of missed that too. I'm just saying worst case....

Wouldn't liability depend on whether the local law was "fence in" or "fence out"?

What a kerfuffle over something that "might" happen. Bulls will be bulls, sometimes even with good fencing, electric fencing they go where they aren't supposed to. This doesn't have to be life and death drama, most of the time it's a non-event. Just put them back. A little confidence and a stick, most bulls will respect that and move along. If they are snotty, contact the owner to come and get them. Give the heifers a dose of lute about 45 days after the breach (check with vet for proper timing), terminate the unwanted pregnancy.

I would hate to see a valuable breeding bull get shot dead, because someone is so inexperienced and/or unnecessarily scared of him they went to their gun first and foremost. That's way down on the list to solve the problem, at least in my book.

I would not want to shoot it just cause I would not want to be responsible for moving, burying or disposing of the darn 2000 pound carcass..:confused:

I am new to this thread, and new to cows. What is the sensible solution to a large bull getting in to your herd of small heifers? I have a few Dexters and while I do not share a fencline with large cattle, they are very close by.
I have to say, this is not something that I have considered before reading this thread.

Check Your State Laws! Some states say that a animal has to injure an animal before You can do anything. Others say there only has to be a threat of injury and You can shoot and kill the animal and the the owner of the animal is responsible for the loss of Your animals and their offspring for so many years. So if a large bull gets in your pasture an injures one your cows to the point she has to be put down the owner of the bull owes you for the cow and so many calves. And if you kill his prize winning bull tough and he owes for disposal of the bull.

I last year i moved to Missouri I have a neighbor who has bad fences and some allaround bad management has had a bull and a cow out for over a year and a half they wander and do as they wish . We have a herd of jersey and jersey crossbreds and quite a few young stock heifers too young to breed last time I corralled this bull I took him home and he was back out in a week next time his owner will be getting a check from Joplin stockyard's I am not going to lose a nice heifer to a 2000 lb beef bull

I appreciate the debate and different view points from everyone. You do have some good advise/experience, it never crossed my mind that a pregnancy could be terminated.....I will pass on getting between a large bull with a stick. There's a fine line between scared and stupid, I don't trust my bulls 100% and I never trust an animal I don't know.

Chances of most beef bulls weighing 2000 pounds are slim. Most are 1800 or 1900, but there are some big ones out there. Chances that if one does weigh 2000 pounds and he gets in with 600 pound heifers, the heifers will be just fine. Might walk funny a couple of days at most. Not to where they would need to be put down. If you are worried about them having a calf when bred to an average bull, then a shot of lute is the shot you need to be worried about. The bull will be easy to move when he is done with the one in heat. If the judge determines that you are responsible for the bull you shoot, keep in mind $2000 is the cull price, you are probably looking at $4000 to $6000 for a replacement bull during breeding season. Electric fences are good, especially when they are offset from the main fence a little ways. It is not reasonable, however, to expect any fence to be totally bull proof. In 30 years of cattle breeding, I have found that as many times as bulls get out, heifers can do some pretty impressive jumps and squeeze through some tight places, when the "mood" hits them. In my experience, letting heifers go through heat on the other side of ANY fence is asking for that fence to be destroyed if there is a bull on the other side. All the more reason to look at small cattle breeds that can't have standard sized calves as a liability if you have neighbors with regular cattle.

I don't think it has been mentioned, but the heifer is just as likely to get out to go to the bull. So your neighbor with the bull might want you to repair his fence, plus come get your heifer. A little cooperation will go a long way.

COWS