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Help me to help this cow! (Diagnostic advice sought)
OK, here's all I know about her (yeah, it's sketchy at best). (Mind you, this is a cow at the dairy where I work, not one of my precious mamas!)
She's been in the calving pen for about 2 weeks now. Farmer brought her over from the dry cow barn. I'm not sure when her due date was, but it must have passed because he said he induced her 2 days ago. No calf! :confused: Now he thinks she might have aborted or had a stillborn calf out in the pasture when she was down at the other barn. This morning when I went in, she was down, with her back legs splayed out like a frog's (bent at the hock joints, but behind her, so she couldn't get up). He hadn't gotten around to picking her up with the tractor when I left (we were doing ET today) so I don't know whether she is able to stand on her own. (It seems to me that it might be more likely for a cow to slip and go down this way right around the time of delivery, when all the pelvic ligaments are loosened up.) Any help/advice would be appreciated. Gosh, I hate to lose one of my girls! :( |
Willow
Lube your hand and arm lift her tail and do a rectal exam. Shouldn't take more than a minute to see if she has a calf. This is not as bad as it seems to check her. If she is with calf it may be dead and causing some of the prob. Is she springing and making ''bag''? Could she have milk fever if she has had the calf? She needs to be up on her brisket and chocked with hay bales or her lungs will fill up and she will be in big trouble! Keep us posted. Mr. Wanda Mike |
Thanks Mike, I will know more tomorrow and post more then ...
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Good advise here, except to ad that if she is diallated do a vaginal exam and look for a malpresentation.
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Well, my boss doesn't let me do that kind of stuff (I am just the milker, although I am trying to learn more of the health care stuff, especially since I have cows of my own now) but I will ask him tomorrow if he's done this ... sometimes a gentle nudge works wonders, if ya know what I mean. ;)
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Talked to my boss yesterday and he thinks she has a dead calf in her. I asked whether we should palpate her to find out and he said it was too late. So I guess she is just gonna lay there and die. :(
----, I hate it when stuff like this happens. :( |
How can he leave her there so just die? That is so awful? I'm sorry I don't mean to sound critical of your boss, but it is so heartbreaking to think that nothing is being done for this poor girl, maybe I'm too soft or something, but there must be something that someone could do, what about the vet?
Carol K |
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At the price of replacement cows that is an unbelievable attitude!!!!!!!!!! Maybe you should work a deal on his soon to be down cows. These cows are worth $1500 min healthy and less than nothing down, how does he justify this? He should be able to give you a nice bonus on the ones saved, if not trying to save them he should put them down at the first chance. A bullet would be a blessing in this case. Mr. Wanda Mike |
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I don't really want to get into the above issues because this is a public board.
Suffice to say that my boss is a very nice guy who took me on even though I knew absolutely nothing about cows, and has taught me a lot in the months I've been there, and has been extremely patient with my screw-ups, of which I'm sure there have been many. So I owe him some loyalty. I will say that I did buy a first-lactation heifer that he sent to the sale barn because she was a maniac in the parlor. She wouldn't quit trying to kick the snot out of us ... otherwise she was a nice little cow ... and her dam is something like a 36,000 lb lifetime producer, huge cow, real good looking -- good feet, great udder attachment. :) After a little lovin', my girl got with the program, and now I milk her by hand, in the pasture, with only a bucket of grain to distract her ... I don't even have to tie her up or use a stanchion. :) I also bought a sale barn calf and put him on her, so she is raising a nice little steer for my hubby's dinner plate. I did have to pay a premium price for her at the sale barn, because some a-----e slaughter buyer got wind of the fact I wanted this cow really really bad, and ran the bid up on me. :( So my boss got twice what she was worth as a slaughter cow, and I paid half what she was worth as a dairy cow. You might say it was a win-win situation for both of us ... |
Willowgirl, give the myrter act a rest. You were at an auction. The guy bidding against you was bidding based on the value of the cow, as were you. He was not trying to p1$$ in your beer, he was trying to obtain a valuable dairy animal. Please everyone stop trying to paint the entire agriculture industry as an evil empire trying to thwart your lifestyle.
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Tinknal, I don't know what I did to deserve your invective (for one, I WORK in the ag industry, plus have my own farm, so it'd be kind of silly for me to paint it as an evil empire, now wouldn't it?) but you were not at the auction and obviously had no idea what went on.
For one, she wasn't being sold as a dairy cow, she was being sold with the old, sick and lame cull cows at the slaughter auction. For all anyone knew, there was something majorly wrong with her ... While most of the cull cows garnered 2-3 bids, we had quite a fierce bidding war going on, she sold for half again what any of the other cull cows were going for. I don't think it was a coincidence that the gentleman (I use that term loosely) that I was bidding against was sitting with the other auctioneer, who was taking a break. The dude obviously caught on to the fact I wasn't going to drop out, and had a little fun at my expense. The auctioneer who was doing the selling had a good time dramatizing the whole thing (hey, that's his job) and after the bid closed, he asked, "Young lady, just how much were you willing to pay for that cow?" and I just smiled and said, "Whatever it took." They were all laughing at me, but I figure I got the last laugh because I paid $800 for a cow that is probably worth $1500. ;) (And BTW, I have been to hundreds of auctions, so yeah I know how these things work, and how to bid so as to generally not pay more for something than I have to.) |
Well it's been 5 days now, and she's still alive. :confused:
If she DID have a dead calf inside her, wouldn't she be dead by now? :confused: She doesn't appear to be feverish and doesn't have a nasty infected smell ... She's eating and drinking (I haul food and water to her every day), she just can't seem to get up. I'm not sure if she injured herself when she went down and her back legs splayed out, or what ... She has been trying to get up ... I can tell by the way the ground is dug out around her. Pneumonia hasn't set it yet, so there is still some hope, I guess! I'd really like to try to pick her up, but I don't know how to do this ... maybe I will mention it to my boss tomorrow. I hate hate hate to lose a cow ... :( |
I find this very hard to believe. I've had downed cows before and I was pretty sure they were going to die, but I still brought them feed and water and kept them comfortable until they did. If the situation had gone on longer or the cow was suffering, I would have killed them. I do not know of a single cattle farmer who would simply leave a downed cow to die with no care at all.
Did your boss say he was going to leave her there to die? Are you taking feed and water to her at his request or on your own? Are you perhaps exaggerating the situation just a bit? If he has indeed said he was just going to leave her to die, then he needs to be reported to the humane authorities. I am not a "treat livestock like pets" kind of person, but leaving a cow out to die from thirst (if nothing else) is criminal and ought to be reported. It's not that hard to shoot a cow! Jena |
Jena, I have answered your message privately.
This is the only farm I've ever worked on (besides my own :) ) so I don't have a whole lot of perspective on how things are done in the industry. I guess I'm surprised (certainly glad) to hear that things might be different elsewhere. However, I don't really want to get into a discussion about farming practices or ethics here, what I'm looking for is practical or medical information on what I might be able to do to save this girl, and thank you to everyone who has responded with suggestions. |
People are concened that this cow is not getting proper treatment, if any at all. So you need to understand that this sort of neglect gets peoples hackles up, to put it mildly. If he won't do what is right by the cow, report him to the proper authoroties, Willow Girl, if you ignore his neglect you are condoning it, you have to do right by the cow.
Carol K |
Carol, there are no "authorities" that are going to do a darned thing in this situation. Trust me on this one, OK?
I AM trying to do right by the cow, that's why I'm here asking questions and trying to get information, OK? Thanks. |
Willow Girl,
You just keep right on caring and trying to do right by that cow. Don't be distracted by thoughts that you're not doing enough. Even the smallest act of kindness is a good thing, and it shows the goodness in you. Gene Paradise Farm |
Getting back to the cow, that legs splayed back position is a symptom of milkfever/ calcium deficency. Does she startle easily, or have trouble swallowing? Just a couple more symptoms of milk fever. To lift the cow you need a sling and either lifting frame or a loader of some sort. She'd need an IV of calcium and an AD shot (and a proper diagnosis!) Anyone taken her temperature? No vets in your area? Maybe if you show some interest in treating this cow your boss will get a vet to work with you on her. If he's not going to do anything constructive the cow should be destroyed.
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Thank you Gene for your kindness! I was about to ask Ken to delete this thread, but your reply made me stop, and I decided I'd wait to see if more helpful advice came in, and now it has. Thanks Ross. No, I didn't realize the legs-splayed thing could be a sign of milk fever! She doesn't seem to startle easily or have trouble swallowing ... also her ears are normal body temperature, not hot or cold. My boss usually lifts cows by putting a sort of clamping thing on their hips, then picking them up with the tractor. Unfortunately he was not there today, and I have tomorrow off, rats! I did talk to the feeder, who will be milking tomorrow morning, and asked her to make sure the downed cow was taken care of while I was gone, and she agreed to look after her for me.
It may have been my imagination, but she seemed a little stronger today ... she was really trying to get up. It doesn't help that her back end is in kind of a mucky spot, so she can't get much traction. :( She is lying with her head up, though ... alert ... and she starts eating and drinking as soon as I haul her some stuff. I know if she's down for too long, the pneumonia will get her, though. Maybe I can talk my boss into trying to pick her up on Saturday. I was wondering, though, if she injured herself when her legs splayed, might it do more harm than good to try to lift her? I don't think she actually fractured her pelvis, because on the day she went down, he was trying to get her up, and she was sort of pulling herself along ... but she was on concrete, slanted (right by the feed bunk) and so it was slippery ... I think if she had been on dirt, she might have been able to get up. :( Could it be just a pulled muscle, or something? Like if we gave it some time, it would mend itself? I hope so ... she is a nice little cow. This was only her second calf, she gave 26K lbs in her first lactation. You'd think that would be worthy of some veterinary care, but, well, I don't call the shots. :( |
"if she injured herself when her legs splayed, might it do more harm than good to try to lift her?" If she did then maybe but as you say it doesn't sound like it. More harm in not trying I'd say.
"Could it be just a pulled muscle, or something? Like if we gave it some time, it would mend itself?" Yes it could be although it would more likely be a pinched nerve. She'd need more than time, anti-inflamitories for a start, maybe Banamine, ASA or Bute, but maybe a steroidal theropy would be better. That's where a vet comes in. Perhaps the farmer is treating her with something and you simply aren't aware of what's being done? I know I'm usually the only one here who treats beasts or know's where to look for what's been done to who. |
A cow that has "split herself" can have permanent damage to the inner thigh muscles, and may not be able to pull her legs back under her properly. Besides picking her up with the hip lifters, another old farmer's trick is to hobble the back legs together with a rope that is just a little longer than the distance her feet would be from each other if she was standing normally. It prevents her legs from splaying out to the sides when she starts to stand. The cow needs to be in a box stall on very thick bedding to prevent further damage to her legs. Realistically, after being down for 5 days, it is extremely unlikely she will ever get up again.
I'm pretty familiar with the kind of farmer/operation you must be working for. Unfortunately they are a lot more common than most people think. |
OK, thanks for the additional advice.
Yes it occurred to me after I posted earlier that picking her up might not work, or might hurt her, but as things stand now, it looks pretty hopeless, so it's six of one, half dozen of the other, isn't it? :( Yes, quite often he treats cows and I'm not aware of it until I ask, in this case I don't think anything is being done, though, because he seems to have written her off. (And, actually, he's probably right, but I never give up hoping and trying! As long as they are eating and drinking, I figure they don't want to give up, so I won't either! :) ) I'm going to see if I can talk him into picking her up tomorrow, and will take some rope from home to try the hobbles thing ... I do believe if we could get her up a bit, it would make a world of difference! P.S. Mary, judging from the sad condition of the many cull cows at the auction I attended, there is nothing out of the ordinary at the place where I work. :( We have our own dairy cows now, and are raising a steer. I would love to have my own dairy someday, and who knows? Anything's possible ... |
I to have worked at a large dairy. We had several cows go down for various reasons. Almost always a broken hip from falling after calving, those cement floors just are so slick sometimes. {usually always} The one I remember was a real good cow all the way around, had to pull her out with the skid loader. She had to sit til the next morning, the butcher could not come til then. It started raining on my shift. The herd manager was a feeling person as I thought she shouldn't be out in such cold rain. So we went out and covered her with a tarp and gave her some hay. They never let their cows lay very long, even though the owner was more to treat them just as dollar signs. Seems the favorites were the ones that would have problems. Our 2 milk cows live a heavenly life compared to those poor cows living on cement floors. I would never buy milk from the store unless it was organic. Seen to much, seen the list of ingredients they feed them, Scary..... Aren't those of us with milk cows SO blessed and also very spoiled. Can't drink milk away from home, let alone get real cream for your coffee at restaurants...Ha Ha
Hope the cow isn't suffering, along time to be down.... |
The difference in Christine (my Holstein who came off the farm where I work) is like night and day ... at the dairy she was the original Little Turd of Misery! Now is is sooooo much happier. Got rid of that hangdog look ... and she's not all filthy and covered with poop like the dairy cows are. And I can walk right up to her, and she won't run from me ... she stands right there and loves to be scratched and petted. Always has to lick my hands ... :rolleyes:
The other day at work there was a cow that had just calved, but had somehow managed to take her bands off, and I went out in the field to re-band her and couldn't catch her. When I came back, my boss made a comment that he didn't think I'd be able to band her out in the field. And it occurred to me what a difference there was between my cows at home, and the ones there who are mostly afraid of people. :( I do try to make friend with them while I'm rounding them up, etc. And my boss and I go 'round and 'round about the electric on the crowd gate. I WILL NOT use it because I don't like to shock them ... and they will come into the parlor for me when I call them, so I don't really need it anyway. Also, production ALWAYS goes down on my day off, and I think the fact the gate is being used has something to do with it. (Just a hunch.) (After all, they're still making milk the whole time they're in the holding pen, and if they're nervous and upset, that's going to have an effect, right?) He doesn't like the way some of the cows go behind the gate (which they will do with the electric off) but to me it's no big deal, I just bring them up at the end. It's always the same ones. I figure it's better all the way around to just work with them, rather than slam them around and force them. :( I would love to have my own dairy. Can't ya tell? SIGH! :no: |
My daughter is doing a 4-H project on the mistreatment of animals in agri-business. It is a shame that they give their lives for us and don't get a good life themselves while they are here. I wish we could bring back the small family farms. Then people could make a living farming and the animals good have a decent life while they're here. I hope this poor cow will be okay. She has been on my mind since I first read this post.
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Thanks Sancraft. :)
Ya know the part that is hardest for me is often I manage to keep a cow alive just long enough to see it shipped. :( For instance there is one that I just pulled thru toxic mastitis which should have killed her ... I hauled food and water to her 2x a day, stripped her out while she was lying down, pumped her full of antibiotics, rubbed and scratched her all over while offering words of encouragement (I don't know if this really helps but weirdly enough they seem grateful for it!). And whaddaya know, she pulled thru. But her udder is wrecked ... so off to slaughter she will go, although she may get to live long enough to have her calf, if she didn't abort. Otherwise, as soon as the slaughter restriction period is up ... :( :( :( Still I keep fighting for them, if only out of stubbornness, and I figure if a few recover, boss won't give me a hard time about babying the rest. "At least if they're alive, they're worth something ... a dead cow isn't worth anything!" That's how I justify it to him ... he thinks in terms of the $$$$ ... he has to. I'm just an employee, so I have the luxury of thinking in terms of the animals themselves, as individuals, not just as vehicles for profit. One reason I'd like to have my own dairy is to prove (or attempt to anyway) that the two concepts can be mutually compatible. I think they can. I could be wrong though. ;) |
Willow girl, I don't believe that I aimed any "invective" at you. You confirmed my point that the cow was worth $1500 and then went on to say you got her for $800. Just because a broker usually buys slaughter cows, doesn't mean that he cant recognize a good dairy animal in a cull pen. I've bought many horses out of kill pens, and rehabed them into usefull riding and driving horses.
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Well, Tinknal, you might be right about that, although I'd think they'd be taking a heck of a chance -- even an animal that looked outwardly healthy might have a really bad cell count, or be sterile or something! I'd sure never buy a cull pen cow unless I knew its history, and I can't imagine a farmer selling a decent cow that way. (I think the only reason my boss sold Christine the way he did was at that time, he had to milk for a few nights after the crowd gate came off its pegs and knocked the night milker down, and he whanged his elbow on the concrete and broke his arm. :( Anyway, I think when my boss was milking, Christine probably kicked the snot out of him -- she was real devil in the parlor! -- and it made him mad enough to sell her for slaughter!)
He is a nice guy, though, and never held it against me that I bought her. He thought it was pretty funny, actually! :) |
Well, WG, he was a buyer, not a group held in high esteem for strict honesty.....lol, the guy saw a profit, and went after it.
God Bless |
I have sent young, healthy cows (twice) to the sale barn and instructed them to sell them for slaughter because of their attitude. It is possible that someone could buy them for other purposes, but when I tell them they are nuts, they announce that to potential buyers.
I feel sorry for anyone who bought them! Jena |
Yup, I give my boss credit for selling her the way he did and accepting the loss, rather than inflicting a cow he considered dangerous on somebody else.
Awhile back, he bought a heifer who had freshened 2 or 3 days prior to the sale. Got her back to the farm and she WOULD NOT go into the parlor. God, she put up a fight! He figured that's why her original owner sold her ... Personally, I wouldn't buy a cow at a dairy sale unless it was an entire herd dispersal, then I'd only take the very best cows. Otherwise, I figure there's a reason they're there. :no: |
Willow Girl,
Please let us know just how this comes (came?) out. Did the cow die? Did she regain her health? Gene Paradise Farm |
Gene, there has been no change in her condition. She's still down, I'm still hauling food and water to her though. :(
When I last talked to my boss about her, he said there "was something else wrong with her" (he didn't elaborate) and that's why he didn't think it was any use to treat her. It sounded like he planned to put her down, but there is a reason why he hasn't, I would prefer not to get into that here though, thanks. Ross, your good advice did come in handy this morning when I found another cow down, splayed out ... at first I thought she had just slipped (the feed bunkers were recently redone, and now the cows have to walk on an area that is right next to the manure pit to get to the bunker, and there are no grooves in the cement there so it's really slippery! :( ) -- but anyway, I remembered your comment about that being a symptom of milk fever, and checked her ears, and they were cold. She's about a month postpartum, and giving lots of milk even though she isn't in the greatest shape (very thin, but he says she's always been like that. :confused: ) (He doesn't think she's Johne's though.) Anyhow, I called him up and he came right in, lifted her with the hip pinchers while hobbling her legs, and I think he gave her some calcium, too, probably other stuff as well ... Hopefully she will be better tomorrow! ... Had 2 cows calve last night, and both have nasty, bloody mastitis ... he says one has a uterine infection too. Geesh! It never ends, does it? :( |
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