Water and ice
 

Keeping water for the three cattle and three horses is becoming a problem. I can only get there on weekends to put out hay and fill troughs. I have a too shallow well, so I can't just open the valve and run a hose until full. If I just crack the valve, i can fill the water, but it takes all weekend, and we can't do dishes or flush the toilet. Usualy, we run out anyway. In the summer, I can use rain water for most or all the animal water. Now, the rain barrels are frozen solid.

I have an IBC tote that I have been filling at the neighbor's house. Last weekend, I used the family car (Dodge Durango) to haul my dump trailer with the water tote to the neighbor's then the pasture. This week, we got rain, then more snow. There was a foot of ice under the drip edge of the building where the trailer and tractors are parked. I dug away the ice, then put chains on the little garden tractor. I tried to plow out from the shed to the pasture gate, but even with chains, I couldn't plow uphill.

So, I put the 1000 lb counter weight on the rear of the big tractor (Ford 4610,2 wheel drive.) with the weight, I could drive through the 6-12" of snow. I put the tote on the loader forks and half filled it with water. Our dirt road is pure ice! I made to within 39' of our driveway, when I started spinning and sliding backward down the hill. The first emergency brake is dropping the three point hitch weight to the ground, no help. The second emergency brake is drop the loader to the ground. That succeeded, but not before water tote came off the forks. Now, my tractor and the tote are in the road. "Traffic" is building up, ok two cars. I ended up chaining the tote to the tractor and dragging it to level ground, where I could get it on the loader again. I tried to turn around, but got stuck in the ditch.

So, we dug out six 6 gallon water jugs, filled them from the tote, drove the leaky things (no lids) to the gate and carried them to the troughs. Repeat for a couple hours, and I got enough weight off the front end to get the tractor moving again.

Now, I am shopping for tractor tire chains ($400!) and a three point hitch pallet fork to put the weight where it needs to be, on the rear.

Board the horses elsewhere until you get it figured out. They are more prone to impaction than cattle and insufficient watering is the best way to get them impacted. Then your weekend water deliveries might be sufficient for the cattle. They might be smart enough/tough enough to take in some snow for moisture but that's a short term emergency survival thing and won't keep them alive the rest of winter.

We have never let the animal water run out in the years we have had animals here, I think I am getting old. If all else fails, I can ask my other neighbor with a team of Percherons to help. I just hate asking for help in this cold weather.

It seems like the cattle drink more than horses. I don't remember six horses drinking as much as this. I also have twice as much trough capacity as last year. I should be able to skip a weekend if I get hurt or have an emergency.

I have never seen any of our animals eat snow, but the horses sure graze under snow more than the cattle. I took down a fence to open access to another round bale, and two of the horses walked past the bale to eat the grass under 8" of snow. The cattle went straight to the bale.

I'm sorry to be so blunt, and mean no disrespect, but, if you can't take proper care of your livestock you shouldn't have them. I would think you should have planed ahead for winter. If you can only tend to them on weekends, get rid of them for their sakes.

I would think the 4610 would have a differential lock. Using the counter weight and the differential lock should IMO let you negotiate through the 6 to 12 inches of snow. A cistern would let you accumulate water from a marginal well. Couple the cistern with a timer and a float at the cistern should create a reservoir to meet your water needs.

And getting colic on horses because they can't get enough water is not a good thing to go through or the horses to go through.~! When I had horses and a tree to raise in the winter i had at times 3 Separate Water tanks all with 1500 WATT heaters in them so my horses had a good amount of water to drink and the steer had his own 150 gallon tank with a heater in it. Even IF MY electric bill went up by 75 or more a month for the winter months that is what it costs and the sacrifice it takes to keep animals. So each one had plenty of water to drink that was a nice temp to drink as those heaters worked 24/7 on many days to keep it close to 40º.

What a nightmare for you. I'd move all of these animals closer to home where they can receive proper care.

Proper care? I read the post and it says he can only get there to bring water and hay every weekend. That doesnt mean that he dont go check on them daily or someone else dont for him. He said rain barrels are froze not waters. Its possible to feed and water the number he has once a week and do daily checks and not be neglecting them. I feed my cows twice a week and they drink out of the brook yes the brook freezes when real cold and they have to break through the ice to drink. They never run out of feed or water but only fed twice a week guess mine need proper care to.

Relax folks, the animals are getting proper care, I am just sick of winter.

Agmanto, the 4610 does fine in snow, I have trouble on ice, especially the township road.

The water situation will be solved somehow this spring. I have a few options, a spring, a deeper well, or a dc pump and storage.

Has anybody used tire chains on a two wheel drive tractor? Did it make ice on hills passable? Hard to install? That was the point of this thread, but it got lost in my whining.

I understand your need to vent Bja105. When things go wrong in winter they can go really wrong. You got the job done and that's what matters.

Yes, they used to make chains for tractors, I assume they still do although 4 wheel drive has probably taken over and chains might be hard to find. I think your best idea is to get a pallet fork on the 3 point and with a weight (round bale?) to give you some traction.

Used semi truck tire chains will work on tractors just have to cut and fit a set still not much good on ice though . Not getting why you can't fill the troughs at other times as it sounds like it is at your home talking about not being able to flush and such . Just sounds like lack of prior planning punch a new well or fix the spring your talking about and be done with it

Yeah I run tire chains on my old WD. They make a difference in getting started and maintaining momentum. But on a hill and on ice- just remember that ice skates are made of steel, too. Just keep it in low and don't stop on the grade.
Sometimes when I've got to move a load up a grade like that I'd do it in reverse. Keeps the weight in the bucket behind me and makes it bounce less.

I think a bag or two of sand and some salt would have gotten me up the hill. Next time, I'll try, even if I get the chains.

People, the animals have a two week supply of water when full. I get anxious when its half gone. If I had added no water yesterday, they would have been OK for another week. Plus, it rained today, and the gutters run into the troughs. I am the one who tries to explain to the kids that we always plan for the unforseen. If something happens to me and I can't get there, We won't have a disaster.
I also try to keep a spare heater,unplugged, in each trough. I don't want to dig out 300 gallons of ice to replace a failed heater.
My animals currently have three weeks of hay available to them, plus the dregs of previous bales. They are all fat and happy, not skinny and thirsty. We have not once needed a vet since we moved them here. Some of us need to work on reading comprehension.

A little better job on the writing wouldn't hurt, either.

Can't you read my mind? ;)

I have never seen any of our animals eat snow, but the horses sure graze under snow more than the cattle. I took down a fence to open access to another round bale, and two of the horses walked past the bale to eat the grass under 8" of snow. The cattle went straight to the bale.
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I don't water any non-lactating stock if there is 3-4" of non-frozen, non-compacted snow. My sheep won't even bother to drink, the ungrateful boogers. Cattle will sip some to make me feel like I need to do it ........but I got over it after I sold dogs to some folks in Alberta that don't provide water to sheep or brood cows or a brood mare cavvy from snow on to snow off unless they get a deep, hard ice crust or melt off. If you got snow, they'll figure it out just fine. American's all talk about "hay compaction" from snow eating, but my Canadian friends just roll their eyes and say if I can keep water fountains open in 50-60 below F, I'm welcome to do it for them!

Probably wouldn't hurt you to look at the tractor or earthmover tire, heat sink type water tanks for the next season if you get a chance. A few black rubber basket balls floating in tanks will draw in some radiant heat as well. Best of luck!

Impaction is a very real concern, but if the animals are out on open range they are going to do enough walking to help keep everything moving I guess. Those critters up in Alberta are adapted to their climate and eating snow. They didn't just move stock up there from Alabama and say, there's the snow, kids, go to it! It's not like we could all just quit watering our stock when there is snow on the ground. And when you have range cattle and horses you have to accept more losses than most people are prepared for, too. So it's a valid option for some but not everybody.

Our winter paddock this year is about 5 acres. They have open fresh water at all times. I can see their tracks around the paddocks and there have been very few leading to their water the last couple of weeks. I rotate their hay rings all around the paddock, and currently the water is about 200 yds from their feed. They don't bother with the hike to get a drink most of the time.

I was watching them a few days ago after I had fed them a round bale, and one had a face full of snow and mouthful of green grass. We had about 3 feet of snow on the ground at that time...now it's about 4 feet.

I keep lanes cleared with the tractor so they can move about at will. I also pile up snow around where they like to lounge as a windbreak, because they absolutely refuse to hang out in the loafing shed unless there is a freezing rain. The windchill was -30 last night when I left them and they were all laying out in the snow happily chewing their cud.

I would never allow my cows to be without water, but my guess is they'd do just fine as long as they had loose snow.

Most livestock can survive eating snow for moisture. However, it takes more energy to eat snow and convert it to water. You will lose condition much faster if you don't increase the feed quality to compensate. A tank heater and adequate water can be cheaper than the cost of high energy rations, or the cost of lost pounds of livestock.

Beef Dec 31, 2010
Ranchers Tell Of Utilizing Snow For Livestock Water

"He also looked at the effects of eating snow on body temperature. Heat created by digestion was adequate to offset cold snow. In field tests in western Canada, there were no increases in winter feed requirements of cows that used snow as their only moisture, compared with cows having access to water."

The statement by KS farmer is logical, but found untrue. In reality, 33-35 degree water isn't much different than 32-30 degree snow. Remember, snow insulates itself, and is much warmer once we get through the crust.

Anybody in wet country that has been stuck in the mud after an early snow followed by a cool down can attest to this.

And in general, cows create lots of BTU's of rumen heat while the microbes are hard at work digesting lignin, cellulose, and hemi-cellulose.

We aren't talking about lactating cows or bucket calves. That would be a different story all together. On sidebar, the accounts above of cows digging through snow to get at stock piled green grass should lead to some provocation of thought.

Well that is all fine and dandy testing on cattle. But the OP has horses as well and they are NOT part of that kind of study.`!

:confused: I guess I stand corrected. Everybody around here spends a lot of time keeping ponds open and water hauled. Of course , we don't have constant snow cover either..... Guess if we have to provide it in between snow storms, we might as well keep it up. I always kept a propane heater in the tank, so the water was over 40 degrees also.
I also can't find any green grass around here now, under the snow or not.

I do realize that different places have different conditions. It's a big old world out there.

KS farmer, it is darn hard to eat snow that isn't there!!!!

The OP in PA gets a lot more of that moisture from the sky than you all do. It's hard for folks from arid, not too snowy places to understand snow on to snow off periods of months.

My whole point was, to the OP, that his stock wouldn't die on him if they ate snow for a few days between checks.

If you search for and read the Beef article online I referenced, it has some interesting results of just monitoring cows that decide not to drink more than every third or fourth day even when they have open water.

Standing grass is a whole 'nother subject. Some folks like to bale and bale, I like to open a wire and let the cows do it. I especially would if there wasn't any constantly deep dog gone snow! Of course, drought and deep snow and prairie fires can foil those plans too and a pile of hay somewhere makes it easier to sleep when that happens.

A couple of actual studies on snow for water for ruminants:

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/...cts/09-065.pdf

http://www.agriview.com/news/livesto...ng-your-sheep/




We have never, ever supplied liquid water in winter to our horses, and they have never, ever had health issues because of it. Most neighbors as well. So long as there is clean powdery snow, they thrive. Think of the deer, the moose, the boars, the birds, the coyotes, the foxes, the elk, the wild horses; In this country, there is no liquid water for up to six months a year.

The thing is, snow quality, and animal experience. My horses know what to do when freeze up and snow comes, because it is all they ever knew. But horses that have always had access to liquid water may struggle.

Water and ice
 

As to the difference between snow and cold water, there is a huge difference in heat. It might not make a difference to the discussion of cattle, but it takes one btu to raise one pound of water one degree. It takes 144 btu's to change one pound of 32 degree ice to 32 degree water. I am not saying it matters or doesn't matter to keeping animals well in winter, but the amount of internal heat used to thaw snow is a lot more than that used to warm cold water. If the snow is 0 degrees, it takes 244 btu's per pound to warm it to body temperature, but it takes only 68 btu's per pound of liquid water from a slushy pond.

I have read a bit how the heat of rumination heats a cow. I have not read much about how horses digest. I know they don't chew cud. Do horses make heat when they digest food, as much as a cow? Enough to make a difference in cold weather? What about grain versus hay versus stockpiled grass? We only feed grain when we want to catch the horses.

Its hard to get good,scientific, factual,non-emotional information about horses. I avoid horses forums, and most horse people. I have been around horses and horse people most of my life, and I have learned that horse people are nuts, and that horses aren't as hard to keep healthy as most horse people would tell you. When we stopped treating our horses like 'they' told us, they got healthier, and we got happier.

Back to my water consumption. I think the problem is my change from a trace mineral salt block to loose minerals when we got cattle. I haven't gotten around to building an outdoor mineral feeder, so I just dump it in a corner feeder in the run-in shed. I think the animals hang out in the shed, eating salty minerals out of boredom. Then they drink more. I think i am only getting three weeks per bag for six animals. I don't know how many pounds per bag, its the Dumor from TSC. I am have read 4 oz. per day per animal, and they are way over that since the weather got cold and windy.

I have searched and been unable to find good concrete studies on horses and snow for water. I find a fair amount of info, but IMO, because horses are more a "pet" animal, my theory is they won't come out and say it, because some may be opposed. Or maybe they simply have not done a study in depth. I found a study where they removed water for ten days and the horses were completely unaffected.

The best study for me on horses, is that for a hundred years, the horses on this farm and hundred of others, have never had liquid water in winter; They still live as long, maintain body condition, and do well.

I have another theory. I think in winter animals, in the absence of liquid water, scale back their intake somehow. People chat about how to get the water they need, horses need to eat 50 gallons of snow or whatever. On paper, sure that is the math. But in reality, this is simply not true. I rarely see the horses even eating the snow. I do see the sheep eat the snow, even with the presence of liquid water, so who knows? But it is not like the animals stand there for a half hour, gathering enough snow to make enough water to survive. They take a bite once in a while while grazing and eating.

If my horses were showing any signs of trouble, while over wintering in -30 to -40 temps while eating snow, I would be the first person to make sure they had a gold plated water bowl!

So far as creating heat: I would imagine any critter digesting food will create heat. I would think horses do create less heat than ruminants..
Interesting topic. So many variables.

What he ^ said.

Horses are hind gut fermenters, and undoubtedly generate less heat of digestion than cows, but probably far more than my good friends monogast dry brood sows that have also spent the last few weeks sans liquid water. 1 lb of dry matter hay is 7,500 to 8,000 btus of energy. Obviously some of this goes out the back end, but it doesn't take much to warm up that snow to water to body temp.

As far as the mineral, 6 head at 21 days at 4 ounces is 31 lbs. If you are going through 50 lbs, that's a lot of conspicuous consumption. It could be your hay has leached some nutrients and the animals crave it, but it could just be plain over consumption from boredom. I'd be inclined to go back to blocks. Maybe a block of white salt, and an actual dry cow mineral block(different than a trace mineralized salt block, with much more mineral content and much less salt) side by side. They may slow way down on total intake of both if able to consume the mineral from the mineral block without so much extra salt in the way, and only get extra salt when they need it separately.

Get out your pad and paper, and keep your eye keen. All of our recommendations don't mean anything until you measure for yourself. I found out I could do a great many things the well paid consultants said couldn't be done. From watering with snow to herding sows with piglets out of the woods with dogs, there haven't been a lot of books on the most profitable things I've done in production ag.

Despite all the pros and cons of cattle needing water. We had -0 temps last couple of nights and we have about 4-6" of snow on the ground. I just drove past a neighbors pond where he had chopped a hole in the ice, his cattle were all lined up drinking or waiting till they could get to the water. Reinforces my thinking that at least cattle prefer drinking water to eating snow, if given a choice!!:shrug:

I don't know squat about btu's. I do know that cattle and horses (especially horses) benefit from drinking water that is liquid and easy to get to. A colicing horse is in pain and you will soon feel that pain in your pocket book.

Winter can be hard on livestock. Yes, they can survive in harsh conditions, but why on earth do you want to push the limits? I like knowing that mine have all the decent hay they want, plenty of water that they don't have to break 2" or more of ice to get to, and, yup, some shelter to get out of the wind. Believe me, if they have access to it, they aren't stupid, they will use it.

A good quality loose mineral tuned to your local area will benefit them WITHOUT additional salt. If they have access to plain salt, they will ignore the minerals -- that is a fact! They will self-regulate with a good, palatable mineral that provides what they need where they live.

Call me whatever you want, but I want my cattle cared for and content. I don't want them learning how to eat snow if they've never had to before. I want them having unlimited access to quality hay to keep them warm when it's in the single digits at night (forget about -40). I don't want to worry about them calving in December, January, or February. November and March can be bad enough, even in central VA.

Go ahead, rant and rave at me. But this is how I keep my livestock.

G. Seddon,

No one has told you to manage your stock a different way. If you have the extra money, time, etc to do a higher input method and feel comfortable with it, that is fine. Good for you, good on you!


But, horses don't colic from eating snow. Cows and sheep will eat mineral and salt separately and perform well. I spent several years as a consultant for a very large feed organization, and witnessed a great many productive animals managed that way. Your opinion is not a fact. Intakes and behaviors of yours and others animals can vary greatly from management, genetics, etc. I have managed in many states and climactic zones. I'm always interested in gaining perspective in new methods. When others are told it can't be done a different way, I am amused at how many others are doing it the other way successfully.

Lots of folks told those bicycle shop boys from Ohio humans couldn't fly either.

This is a place for neighborly help and advice. Or so it says on top of the page.
There are dozens of solutions and many different outcomes. That is the point of a place to share.

If someone needs help managing the way you do, for heavens sake speak up.

G Seddon. I am not in line to bash you! Keep on keeping on! More than one way to skin a cat, and I would be surprised if anyone flames you...

Dale

Not from me I agree with you 100% Having cattle and horses for the last 40 years plus managing a large boarding stable and belonging to many a saddle clubs, nobody will change my mind even if it means getting a large electric bill over the coldest months They The Animals deserve the very best care i can give them they get fed before I do. And we also get way down below zero sometimes many days and nights in a row. When the High for the day is a Minus 10, I KNOW without a doubt my critters will have close to 40º water to drink.
And I sure don't want to worry about miniature horses having colic. I had one mare that had colic twice from eating mixed alfalfa. No more of that is found on my place it is grass hay only.
Like my Vet always says alfalfa is for cattle not horses.